SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 28, 2020 9:34:31 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 28, 2020 14:40:13 GMT -5
Why not end high school grades too and just go on personal qualities? These kind of abject reforms without perspective are the kind of hot air usually reserved for tenured faculty. |
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tgo
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 799
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Post by tgo on Nov 29, 2020 17:51:22 GMT -5
Why not end high school grades too and just go on personal qualities? These kind of abject reforms without perspective are the kind of hot air usually reserved for tenured faculty. Better yet, let's just do a lottery to determine admissions. Make the form as simple as possible, just check a box that you want to go to GU and check boxes for your gender and ethnic make up so we can have the appropriately diverse group of students. |
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 30, 2020 1:16:22 GMT -5
Why not end high school grades too and just go on personal qualities? These kind of abject reforms without perspective are the kind of hot air usually reserved for tenured faculty. Better yet, let's just do a lottery to determine admissions. Make the form as simple as possible, just check a box that you want to go to GU and check boxes for your gender and ethnic make up so we can have the appropriately diverse group of students. Honestly, a lottery isn't a bad idea. Set a baseline for SAT scores and grades and then run a lotto. Hold a few spots for exceptional cases of hardship who don't meet the cutoff. |
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hoopsmccan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoopsmccan on Nov 30, 2020 10:33:35 GMT -5
Better yet, let's just do a lottery to determine admissions. Make the form as simple as possible, just check a box that you want to go to GU and check boxes for your gender and ethnic make up so we can have the appropriately diverse group of students. Honestly, a lottery isn't a bad idea. Set a baseline for SAT scores and grades and then run a lotto. Hold a few spots for exceptional cases of hardship who don't meet the cutoff. A similar sentiment was raised in the Revisionist History podcast "The Powerball Revolution"...an interesting listen. And before people on Malcolm Gladwell, I get it and not arguing on his behalf. I think the podcast is good entertainment/storytelling with some interesting nuggets, that is it. hm |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Nov 30, 2020 13:24:23 GMT -5
There's something to be said about moving away from standardized testing scores which studies indicate are more reflective of socio-economic status rather than intelligence/prediction of college success.
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Post by reformation on Nov 30, 2020 14:55:18 GMT -5
Interesting the the petition author is probably a recruited athlete(softball). Could also argue pretty easily against admitting minor sport athletes(that would include softball at GTWN at least) too.
The petition arguments have some +/-. The arguments against using test scores are valid; however, pretty much everyone gets good grades so it hard to use grades only as a selection tool. There is more variation in test scores than grades so that's why colleges still use them despite the obvious biases.
Reducing legacy admissions I guess would involve a trade-off versus alumni donations--obviously that reality is not addressed in the petition
Re: the common app vs Gtwn app, I suspect that the petitioners are correct re making it harder for underrepresented groups to apply, though really not sure to what extent this is really an issue
I guess the other thing not discussed is that Gtwn like most other univ's practices some form of affirmative action policies vs underrepresented groups already, which effectively reduces the standardized test and other barriers for admission. I guess what is the goal here--do they want to see 10% more/50% more underrepresented groups on campus--seems like the real barrier to this is $
Would think that other than the issues raised re the common app, Gtwn is more likely to act in concert with other univ's than strike out alone no matter what one thinks of the specific arguments
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Nov 30, 2020 15:55:39 GMT -5
Apparently doing away with the Georgetown app and going with the common app will increase applications to Georgtown quite a bit - maybe double.
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tgo
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 799
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Post by tgo on Nov 30, 2020 16:04:33 GMT -5
Apparently doing away with the Georgetown app and going with the common app will increase applications to Georgtown quite a bit - maybe double. I don't see getting more applicants as a worthy goal and making it simple and easy to apply/be accepted should not be a goal of the school or any specific program within the school either. |
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 30, 2020 16:04:54 GMT -5
These petitions fall of their own weight because they too are rooted in their own bias.
How many people are unable to apply to Georgetown because of the absence of the Common Application? Statistically, very little. The Common App provides institutions very little in the way of holistic review of applicants and are really meant to pump up application numbers to suit university executives when, in fact, they are counterproductive to a serious admissions effort. Example: Fordham had over 45,000 applications generated through the Common App--twice as much as Georgetown, and even more than Harvard. Is Fordham suddenly more diverse? No, and the opposite is true. Fordham's yield (percentage enrolled against admitted) sank to just 8%, or one in 12 admitted actually went there because the majority of those checking the box for Fordham had no interest in actually going there if a better offer came along. (FWIW, Harvard's yield is 81% and Georgetown 48%)
Advocates for change may well be careful about efforts to support "their" preferred underrepresented groups versus the demographically underrepresented groups in the nation as a whole. Among those underrepresented? Applicants from the Midwest and South, students that want Greek life, married students, Mormons, and evangelicals. Are SFS students ready for a Campus Bible Fellowship if evangelicals attended Georgetown at the same percentage of the US population?
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Post by flyoverhoya on Nov 30, 2020 16:23:43 GMT -5
These petitions fall of their own weight because they too are rooted in their own bias. How many people are unable to apply to Georgetown because of the absence of the Common Application? Statistically, very little. The Common App provides institutions very little in the way of holistic review of applicants and are really meant to pump up application numbers to suit university executives when, in fact, they are counterproductive to a serious admissions effort. Example: Fordham had over 45,000 applications generated through the Common App--twice as much as Georgetown, and even more than Harvard. Is Fordham suddenly more diverse? No, and the opposite is true. Fordham's yield (percentage enrolled against admitted) sank to just 8%, or one in 12 admitted actually went there because the majority of those checking the box for Fordham had no interest in actually going there if a better offer came along. (FWIW, Harvard's yield is 81% and Georgetown 48%) Advocates for change may well be careful about efforts to support "their" preferred underrepresented groups versus the demographically underrepresented groups in the nation as a whole. Among those underrepresented? Applicants from the Midwest and South, students that want Greek life, married students, Mormons, and evangelicals. Are SFS students ready for a Campus Bible Fellowship if evangelicals attended Georgetown at the same percentage of the US population? Anecdotally (friends with high schoolers, AAP interviewees, my daughter), I think that GU's remaining outside of the various application portals (Common, Coalition, Questbridge) is a net negative, and de-emphasizing or doing away with standardized tests is becoming the way of the world. There have always been issues with standardized tests, whether it's their relatively poor ability to predict success or the fact that the SAT and ACT have always been viewed differently by admissions offices. Being from the Midwest, I've always told applicants to be sure and take the SAT - the ACT is the test of choice in flyover country, but while (mostly) coastal schools say that they take either, there's a strong bias in favor of the SAT. |
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1789
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by 1789 on Nov 30, 2020 17:55:55 GMT -5
It's worth a look but it if you G'town goes with the common app it seems like it would be a burden to go away from standardized tests. Perhaps the MIT model is worth a look. 5 essays. No standardized testing requirement and no common app.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 30, 2020 20:12:25 GMT -5
It's worth a look but it if you G'town goes with the common app it seems like it would be a burden to go away from standardized tests. Perhaps the MIT model is worth a look. 5 essays. No standardized testing requirement and no common app. MIT and Georgetown are the outliers among the top 25, and that's a good thing. The MIT approach shares an approach with Georgetown of being holistic and, at its core, fair. The MIT admissions site (https://mitadmissions.org) is candid and up front about what it seeks and contains a lot more content that I suspect Georgetown would care to include on its pages. "It is important to understand that these numbers do not determine our admissions process, but are the result of our process," it reads. "In our holistic admissions process, we consider quantifications like test scores, but we also care deeply about factors like your match with MIT." The latter is something Georgetown does not stress: how do you as an applicant match with Georgetown--perhaps, because there is more to offer at GU if you change your mind and that MIT is a binary choice--you're either going to succeed there or you will not. Yes, MIT wants to see test scores, and the math numbers pretty much have to be 790 or 800. In 2019, MIT accepted just 23 out of 14,279 with the SAT below a 750 in math. It does not do legacy, but the sheer supply of math scores renders this unnecessary and is unlike other schools. MIT is not seeking to be representative of America. Nearly half its incoming class is Asian. There are a lot of social and political undertones about this, not the least of which was the nearby lawsuit at Harvard, but MIT has less latitude to build out black and Hispanic students at the expense of high SAT numbers from Asian students. Adding Questbridge is not a game changer because of the numbers to legitimately compete in that group. Admissions at Georgetown is one of the school's best assets. Getting a better aid package for all should be the concern. |
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C86
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by C86 on Dec 1, 2020 9:58:23 GMT -5
I predict that when Georgetown gets its next dean of admissions, it will soon after go to the Common App. It simply makes sense for colleges, high schools, and applicants to use a common platform to manage the application process. In my experience, very selective schools require multiple additional essays from their applicants beyond the generic essay on the Common App. Applying to these schools is far more onerous than merely typing their name into the Common App and paying the fee. The selective schools that use the Common App manage to find outstanding students who meet their unique applicant profiles.
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Post by flyoverhoya on Dec 1, 2020 11:17:56 GMT -5
I predict that when Georgetown gets its next dean of admissions, it will soon after go to the Common App. It simply makes sense for colleges, high schools, and applicants to use a common platform to manage the application process. In my experience, very selective schools require multiple additional essays from their applicants beyond the generic essay on the Common App. Applying to these schools is far more onerous than merely typing their name into the Common App and paying the fee. The selective schools that use the Common App manage to find outstanding students who meet their unique applicant profiles. There's a lot more writing involved in most selective schools' Common App supplements than there is in the GU application. |
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Post by LizziebethHoya on Dec 1, 2020 11:19:24 GMT -5
I predict that when Georgetown gets its next dean of admissions, it will soon after go to the Common App. It simply makes sense for colleges, high schools, and applicants to use a common platform to manage the application process. In my experience, very selective schools require multiple additional essays from their applicants beyond the generic essay on the Common App. Applying to these schools is far more onerous than merely typing their name into the Common App and paying the fee. The selective schools that use the Common App manage to find outstanding students who meet their unique applicant profiles. Because it's been 17 years (eeek) since I've looked at either, does Georgetown ask any non-essay questions that are NOT on the common application? |
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C86
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by C86 on Dec 1, 2020 14:05:22 GMT -5
I predict that when Georgetown gets its next dean of admissions, it will soon after go to the Common App. It simply makes sense for colleges, high schools, and applicants to use a common platform to manage the application process. In my experience, very selective schools require multiple additional essays from their applicants beyond the generic essay on the Common App. Applying to these schools is far more onerous than merely typing their name into the Common App and paying the fee. The selective schools that use the Common App manage to find outstanding students who meet their unique applicant profiles. Because it's been 17 years (eeek) since I've looked at either, does Georgetown ask any non-essay questions that are NOT on the common application? One that comes to mind is list any members of your family who went to Georgetown. But every school asks some form of that question. Also, what school you are applying to? I suspect it would not be hard to add those questions to the Common App. |
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Post by Problem of Dog on Dec 1, 2020 19:40:33 GMT -5
Honestly, a lottery isn't a bad idea. Set a baseline for SAT scores and grades and then run a lotto. Hold a few spots for exceptional cases of hardship who don't meet the cutoff. A similar sentiment was raised in the Revisionist History podcast "The Powerball Revolution"...an interesting listen. And before people on Malcolm Gladwell, I get it and not arguing on his behalf. I think the podcast is good entertainment/storytelling with some interesting nuggets, that is it. hm That's exactly what sold me on the idea. Now I'm not for it whole cloth, but I think that introducing some semblance of randomness may make the process more fair. |
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Dec 1, 2020 21:16:24 GMT -5
SAT scores are an equalizer for high schools that exhibit rampant grade inflation. A way to compare students apples-to-apples.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Dec 3, 2020 17:28:16 GMT -5
If we do this the only students who will apply to Georgetown will be from the most favored high/prep schools who have an existing relationship with our admission office. Everyone else can go to hell since they won’t have a fair meritocratic chance.
And if we lose our selectivity we will lose the respect that generates applications from families willing to sacrifice to pay $65000 per year.
Not to mention the impact on fund raising since it will be very hard to get people to support an institution that explicitly despises merit.
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