jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 6, 2019 17:53:12 GMT -5
So suppose the Hoyas start Akinjo/Mac/Alexander/Josh/Yurt as many speculate and play an offensive and defensive style similar to last year.
Here is my idea: (Yes, it is a bit uncoventional, but it is silly season and it might be a way to exploit our depth and multiple skill sets.)
What if we decided to change the pace of the game for a time to either fatigue the other team’s starters or get their starters off the floor and exploit second team mismatches? At the 12 minute mark of the first half, imagine a shift change to Allen/Mosely/Pickett/Gardner/Wilson to apply super aggressive full court pressure for 4-6 minutes until the 6-8 minute mark and then return your rested starters.
That 2nd line-up has length and defensive tenacity to cause problems and could help wear out teams without depth or befuddle 2nd stringers. How many 2nd team opponents could withstand a good full court press? If the starters stay in the game, how effective will they be down the stretch in the 2nd half when the game is on the line? While Wilson is not strong enough to play in the post in the 1/2 court offense, I wonder if he could be highly effective at the back of an aggressive press where he just needs to block shots and not to fight for position.
Perhaps this approach is repeated in the 2nd half for 4 minutes to get the fitness advantage for the last 6 minutes of the game. With the number of possessions available in 8-12 minutes of aggressive pressing defense, you could give a meaningful role to that 2nd line-up. It has the potential of causing problems for opponents and give them another dimension for which they have to prepare their full team making us a more difficult match-up.
While teams don’t seem to radically change the pace of play for periods of the game nor do they utilize complete shift changes as substitutes, I would love to see us experiment a bit.
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Post by bigelephant on Aug 6, 2019 20:08:30 GMT -5
Did not Pat do that a number of times last year? At least a similar format?
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 6, 2019 20:18:36 GMT -5
Did not Pat do that a number of times last year? At least a similar format? We pulled out some full court press a handful of times, but it was shockingly ineffective. I counted 1 turnover produced from it the entire year (by Kaleb Johnson). We did not optimize our line-ups with taller, defensively oriented players with a dedicated, specific role. The only player that I think would have participated last year in my press line-up was Pickett.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 20:33:48 GMT -5
It's an interesting idea, but I honestly can't think of any teams whose success I would want to mimic that runs an aggressive press. Even Shaka has kind of went away from it at Texas. I think the key is to force teams to play in the half court, don't give up layups, and make teams shoot with a hand in their face. That's why pack line is the "it" defense right now because it limits dribble penetration, and forces teams to beat you from the outside. www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 6, 2019 20:42:16 GMT -5
It's an interesting idea, but I honestly can't think of any teams whose success I would want to mimic that runs an aggressive press. Even Shaka has kind of went away from it at Texas. I think the key is to force teams to play in the half court, don't give up layups, and make teams shoot with a hand in their face. That's why pack line is the "it" defense right now because it limits dribble penetration, and forces teams to beat you from the outside. www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/It is true that few teams run the press...but maybe that is the reason to do it. Zig when others are zagging, and do like Syracuse does an optimize the athletes that fit style. On paper the 5 players I included in this line-up have the size, length, and athleticism to be effective playing full court press. I agree that the pack line is both prevalent and effective. My sense is that teams that successfully implement pack line have pack line DNA in their coaching. Are you aware of teams that have just mimicked pack line and found success?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2019 20:53:51 GMT -5
It's an interesting idea, but I honestly can't think of any teams whose success I would want to mimic that runs an aggressive press. Even Shaka has kind of went away from it at Texas. I think the key is to force teams to play in the half court, don't give up layups, and make teams shoot with a hand in their face. That's why pack line is the "it" defense right now because it limits dribble penetration, and forces teams to beat you from the outside. www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/It is true that few teams run the press...but maybe that is the reason to do it. Zig when others are zagging, and do like Syracuse does an optimize the athletes that fit style. On paper the 5 players I included in this line-up have the size, length, and athleticism to be effective playing full court press. I agree that the pack line is both prevalent and effective. My sense is that teams that successfully implement pack line have pack line DNA in their coaching. Are you aware of teams that have just mimicked pack line and found success? I'm sure there are some, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to name them off the top of my head. The article mentions Izzo, Mack, and Miller, but I don't think it's hard to implement tbh. The part that's difficult is to get your kids to play with the amount of discipline it requires because it usually leads to long defensive possessions.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Aug 6, 2019 21:23:33 GMT -5
I don't think it's a crazy idea at all. I think it's valuable and important to have different tools in your toolkit on both sides of the ball. An aggressive press is clearly one.
I wouldn't.necessarily do it as you suggest but instead as a momentum changer when other things aren't working.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Aug 6, 2019 21:37:53 GMT -5
It's an interesting idea, but I honestly can't think of any teams whose success I would want to mimic that runs an aggressive press. Even Shaka has kind of went away from it at Texas. I think the key is to force teams to play in the half court, don't give up layups, and make teams shoot with a hand in their face. That's why pack line is the "it" defense right now because it limits dribble penetration, and forces teams to beat you from the outside. www.basketballforcoaches.com/pack-line-defense/It is true that few teams run the press...but maybe that is the reason to do it. Zig when others are zagging, and do like Syracuse does an optimize the athletes that fit style. On paper the 5 players I included in this line-up have the size, length, and athleticism to be effective playing full court press. I agree that the pack line is both prevalent and effective. My sense is that teams that successfully implement pack line have pack line DNA in their coaching. Are you aware of teams that have just mimicked pack line and found success?Buzz Williams flipped from being a man to man guy to a more pack line type @ Va Tech his last 2 years & it paid off for him... Pressing full court is hard these days because most teams aren't interested in layups, players fan out to the corners for 3's which renders rim protectors much less effective in my opinion... Also, I'll keep saying this until I see differently. The staff needs to teach defensive cohesiveness in the half-court before they try to teach a full-court press...
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 6, 2019 22:20:30 GMT -5
Our Hoyas have not fared well against the press in recent years... so there's that.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Aug 7, 2019 1:08:30 GMT -5
Our Hoyas have not fared well against the press in recent years... so there's that. To be fair, SirSaxa, we've had teams in the recent past that didn't even need to be pressed to throw it away!
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kbones17
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Post by kbones17 on Aug 7, 2019 4:31:20 GMT -5
A few thoughts: -All signs indicate that Wilson isn’t ready to be on the court, so I’d substitute Wahab for him on the second line in your idea. -That second line would be dreadful in a half court offense setting so you are completely gambling on creating a turnover to create offense. - I agree fully that we need to be inserting some additonal defensive wrinkles into our game planning. I think our defensive approach in the past two seasons has been extremely easy for our opponents to gameplan against. - The few times we attempted 2-3 zone and full court pressure last season we failed miserably. - To my eyes, the most successful defensive wrinkle we employed was the 3/4 pressure or what I’ll call “soft press” that simply attempted to ensure that the opponent killed 10 seconds or so advancing the ball in the backcourt/beginning to initiate their offense. This reduced the time we needed to defend in the half court, and, as noted, because our defensive cohesiveness was often lacking, this reduction of time is very positive for us. - I am in favor of using this soft press much more frequently.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 7, 2019 7:43:45 GMT -5
A few thoughts: -All signs indicate that Wilson isn’t ready to be on the court, so I’d substitute Wahab for him on the second line in your idea. -That second line would be dreadful in a half court offense setting so you are completely gambling on creating a turnover to create offense. - I agree fully that we need to be inserting some additonal defensive wrinkles into our game planning. I think our defensive approach in the past two seasons has been extremely easy for our opponents to gameplan against. - The few times we attempted 2-3 zone and full court pressure last season we failed miserably. - To my eyes, the most successful defensive wrinkle we employed was the 3/4 pressure or what I’ll call “soft press” that simply attempted to ensure that the opponent killed 10 seconds or so advancing the ball in the backcourt/beginning to initiate their offense. This reduced the time we needed to defend in the half court, and, as noted, because our defensive cohesiveness was often lacking, this reduction of time is very positive for us. - I am in favor of using this soft press much more frequently. I haven’t seen Wilson play, but he did have 11 blocks in a game this summer in Kenner so I wondered if he might fit in a track meet style situation. Agree the line-up I put out there would have to push pace always as the half court could be ugly. I haven’t seen enough of Wahab defensively to know if he was a ++ rim protector. While Akinjo and Mac are good players, I think they are really poor fits for a full court press defense due to their lack of length. Josh, Pickett, and Mosely, only 2 of which were on the court simultaneously) were really the only contributors who would seem a full court pressing style from last year’s roster. Part of me thinks it would be borderline criminal to be unable to implement a turnover oriented pressure defense given our heritage. Agree that the soft press helped last year but that is not a turnover oriented pressure defense.
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Post by bigelephant on Aug 7, 2019 8:02:05 GMT -5
I read the whole article on the Pack Line defense - it was sort of an eye-opener. This whole discussion has been very interesting to say the least.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Aug 8, 2019 22:57:03 GMT -5
A few thoughts: -All signs indicate that Wilson isn’t ready to be on the court, so I’d substitute Wahab for him on the second line in your idea. -That second line would be dreadful in a half court offense setting so you are completely gambling on creating a turnover to create offense. - I agree fully that we need to be inserting some additonal defensive wrinkles into our game planning. I think our defensive approach in the past two seasons has been extremely easy for our opponents to gameplan against. - The few times we attempted 2-3 zone and full court pressure last season we failed miserably. - To my eyes, the most successful defensive wrinkle we employed was the 3/4 pressure or what I’ll call “soft press” that simply attempted to ensure that the opponent killed 10 seconds or so advancing the ball in the backcourt/beginning to initiate their offense. This reduced the time we needed to defend in the half court, and, as noted, because our defensive cohesiveness was often lacking, this reduction of time is very positive for us. - I am in favor of using this soft press much more frequently. I haven’t seen Wilson play, but he did have 11 blocks in a game this summer in Kenner so I wondered if he might fit in a track meet style situation. Agree the line-up I put out there would have to push pace always as the half court could be ugly. I haven’t seen enough of Wahab defensively to know if he was a ++ rim protector. While Akinjo and Mac are good players, I think they are really poor fits for a full court press defense due to their lack of length. Josh, Pickett, and Mosely, only 2 of which were on the court simultaneously) were really the only contributors who would seem a full court pressing style from last year’s roster. Part of me thinks it would be borderline criminal to be unable to implement a turnover oriented pressure defense given our heritage. Agree that the soft press helped last year but that is not a turnover oriented pressure defense. You also have to remember that current rules almost outlaw defense. Presses work best when refs let both sides play hard. Currently, emphasis is on whiz bang scoring, with 3 pointers and dunks, and defense, in my opinion, has been hamstrung by rules. That's the way it is, so you have to adapt, with soft presses, opportune lane jumping, etc. It's up to the coaches to see how the game is being called and adjust from there.
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Post by professorhoya on Aug 9, 2019 7:16:08 GMT -5
Two things hampered the press last year.
1. No eraser to cover for when the press gets beat. Govan isn't a shot blocker and was worried about foul trouble so when the press got beat we were giving up layups. Mourning also offered little resistance. I think this year will be different because Yurt7 has size, Wahab and Igohefe can block shots. (As well as Wilson who I think will be save for a redshirt).
2. You need length in the backcourt. Neither Mac or Akinjo have length and both are undersized for their respective positions. (It's easy to see over them and pass over them). The only way we can really run a dominant press is to have Galen Alexander/Terrell Allen/Mosley at point with Gardner/Alexander at shooting guard.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 9, 2019 7:55:39 GMT -5
Two things hampered the press last year. 1. No eraser to cover for when the press gets beat. Govan isn't a shot blocker and was worried about foul trouble so when the press got beat we were giving up layups. Mourning also offered little resistance. I think this year will be different because Yurt7 has size, Wahab and Igohefe can block shots. (As well as Wilson who I think will be save for a redshirt). 2. You need length in the backcourt. Neither Mac or Akinjo have length and both are undersized for their respective positions. (It's easy to see over them and pass over them). The only way we can really run a dominant press is to have Galen Alexander/Terrell Allen/Mosley at point with Gardner/Alexander at shooting guard. How did our ‘84 team’s press work with our backcourt of Jackson, Smith and Broadnax all at 6’2”? Discipline and toughness, plus the Human Eraser at center were the difference, not backcourt height. For the record, our backcourt height last year was Mac 6’2”, James 6’ and Jagan 6’3”. Add Allen at 6’3” this year. I’m not including 6’3” Blair bc he cannot press.
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Post by professorhoya on Aug 9, 2019 8:13:43 GMT -5
Two things hampered the press last year. 1. No eraser to cover for when the press gets beat. Govan isn't a shot blocker and was worried about foul trouble so when the press got beat we were giving up layups. Mourning also offered little resistance. I think this year will be different because Yurt7 has size, Wahab and Igohefe can block shots. (As well as Wilson who I think will be save for a redshirt). 2. You need length in the backcourt. Neither Mac or Akinjo have length and both are undersized for their respective positions. (It's easy to see over them and pass over them). The only way we can really run a dominant press is to have Galen Alexander/Terrell Allen/Mosley at point with Gardner/Alexander at shooting guard. How did our ‘84 team’s press work with our backcourt of Jackson, Smith and Broadnax all at 6’2”? Discipline and toughness, plus the Human Eraser at center were the difference, not backcourt height. For the record, our backcourt height last year was Mac 6’2”, James 6’ and Jagan 6’3”. Add Allen at 6’3” this year. I’m not including 6’3” Blair bc he cannot press. You are talking about an era that was almost 40 years ago in the last century. The height of an average shooting guard was around 6-2 back then and that was before Jordan's success at the pro level ushered in the 6-6 shooting guard. The 84 team was not undersized or lacking lenght for their era.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 9, 2019 8:34:04 GMT -5
How did our ‘84 team’s press work with our backcourt of Jackson, Smith and Broadnax all at 6’2”? Discipline and toughness, plus the Human Eraser at center were the difference, not backcourt height. For the record, our backcourt height last year was Mac 6’2”, James 6’ and Jagan 6’3”. Add Allen at 6’3” this year. I’m not including 6’3” Blair bc he cannot press. You are talking about an era that was almost 40 years ago in the last century. The height of an average shooting guard was around 6-2 back then and that was before Jordan's success at the pro level ushered in the 6-6 shooting guard. The 84 team was not undersized or lacking length for their era. Agree. And let me add, Gene Smith was the greatest defensive guard to ever don a Hoya uni. And Patrick was the greatest defensive center And JT was arguably the greatest defensive coach in college basketball history.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 9, 2019 8:36:07 GMT -5
How did our ‘84 team’s press work with our backcourt of Jackson, Smith and Broadnax all at 6’2”? Discipline and toughness, plus the Human Eraser at center were the difference, not backcourt height. For the record, our backcourt height last year was Mac 6’2”, James 6’ and Jagan 6’3”. Add Allen at 6’3” this year. I’m not including 6’3” Blair bc he cannot press. You are talking about an era that was almost 40 years ago in the last century. The height of an average shooting guard was around 6-2 back then and that was before Jordan's success at the pro level ushered in the 6-6 shooting guard. The 84 team was not undersized or lacking lenght for their era. Agree to disagree. You're talking about college basketball and we still see plenty of 6'2" or less shooting guards. Backcourt height in college has not changed that much as you are implying. 6'6" shooting guards who can handle are still the rare exception now, not all over the league. That 84 team was not undersized or lacking length for last year's BE. But, we're talking about backcourt height. Discipline, toughness, speed and depth lead to a successful press. Will we have that this year? IMO again we find ourselves with too many new players who will need to play a lot to be able to answer that right now...
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 9, 2019 8:37:00 GMT -5
You are talking about an era that was almost 40 years ago in the last century. The height of an average shooting guard was around 6-2 back then and that was before Jordan's success at the pro level ushered in the 6-6 shooting guard. The 84 team was not undersized or lacking length for their era. Agree. And let me add, Gene Smith was the greatest defensive guard to ever don a Hoya uni. And Patrick was the greatest defensive center And JT was arguably the greatest defensive coach in college basketball history. We're talking about backcourt height, not the rest of the team. Do you think that Gene Smith would be a great defender today? I'll agree with you on Gene as the best defensive guard, but only because he stayed four years. Iverson's two BE Defender of the Year awards in his two seasons are not too shabby. Btw, he was 6'0".
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