hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on May 1, 2019 20:43:21 GMT -5
Next up is UMass, so who knows where ESPN is going with this series? Seriously? What the heck was UMass ever in basketball aside from Dr. J and Calishadi? And Calishadi didn't exactly leave a legacy to be proud of there.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on May 7, 2019 11:42:59 GMT -5
UMass article is up today.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 18, 2019 21:17:46 GMT -5
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Jun 25, 2019 10:06:47 GMT -5
Georgetown to be featured July 9th.
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by daveg023 on Jul 9, 2019 6:57:02 GMT -5
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Post by professorhoya on Jul 9, 2019 7:40:24 GMT -5
Unfortunate that they can't figure out the rules changes had a big part to do with III's demise and the rise of the Pack Line and Nova.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 9, 2019 7:50:22 GMT -5
Thoughts on a much tamer article than it could have been: 1. It appears these writers are still a little intimidated by John Thompson, so the argument on Thompson's current influence on the program was muted. 2. Craig Esherick got a fair deal, although the claim of that protest has been historically overblown. The wheels were turning on Craig well before that. 3. I disagree with the playing style argument--a more structured pace worked for Bennett and Beilein but if you don't recruit to the system, it breaks down. Just like the trio of Bethel, Hall, and Harvey Thomas was Esherick swinging for the fences, so too for Peak, Copeland and White as far as JT III's story went. How does JT III's career arc look like if he had focused on Hart, Jenkins, and Booth instead? 4. It was pointed out to me earlier this year by a longtime Georgetown follower that JT III had no plan after Otto Porter and Greg Whittington left. That's when you saw the recruiting reaches and the overall lack of focus.
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Post by ewingitrust on Jul 9, 2019 8:57:11 GMT -5
The writers had guarded optimism about the Hoyas trajectory under Ewing. Getting to the Tourney and winning a game is a good barometer. However i think Ewing is capable of giving us a final four 4/ncaa championship in his tenure. I like the fact they highlighted the good of JT3's tenure as a whole....i think his tenure is unfortunatey underappreciated because of the ncaa losses...but he kept us in the top-10 every year for stretch.
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Jul 9, 2019 9:06:57 GMT -5
I think most of us would be thrilled to return to a regular season stretch like JTIII had from 2006-2015. Losing in the first weekend of the NCAA tournament to a double digit seed repeatedly does not look nearly as bad now as it did a few years ago. Speaking for myself - I think I did not fully appreciate how challenging it is to put together a program that can get a top 4 NCAA tournament seed in 70% of your seasons, as JTIII did from 2006-15. As frustrating as the early NCAA departures were, those seasons were still a lot better than not making the tournament at all for 4 straight years.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jul 9, 2019 9:57:43 GMT -5
With the amount of resources we put into men’s basketball, we should be much better. Pat has done a good job of righting the ship. I am hopeful that this is our year to get back to relevance.
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Post by tribeninerhoya on Jul 9, 2019 17:28:15 GMT -5
Seemed like a pretty fair article to me. I think we’re heading in the right direction, too. One or two big recruits and we could be off to the races.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 9, 2019 18:46:57 GMT -5
Thoughts on a much tamer article than it could have been: 1. It appears these writers are still a little intimidated by John Thompson, so the argument on Thompson's current influence on the program was muted. 2. Craig Esherick got a fair deal, although the claim of that protest has been historically overblown. The wheels were turning on Craig well before that. 3. I disagree with the playing style argument--a more structured pace worked for Bennett and Beilein but if you don't recruit to the system, it breaks down. Just like the trio of Bethel, Hall, and Harvey Thomas was Esherick swinging for the fences, so too for Peak, Copeland and White as far as JT III's story went. How does JT III's career arc look like if he had focused on Hart, Jenkins, and Booth instead? 4. It was pointed out to me earlier this year by a longtime Georgetown follower that JT III had no plan after Otto Porter and Greg Whittington left. That's when you saw the recruiting reaches and the overall lack of focus. 1. Not sure what you mean, but do you doubt Thompson's current influence on the program? 2. The wheels had to be turned on the Administration. The protest took the rug from under the Administration's and JT2's feet, or in this case, their ability to control the situation/timing. 3. JT3's recruiting evaluations left a lot to be desired. Is it a coincidence that he recruited so few Alpha players? How many can you name? What does that say about him? His teams lacked on-court and off-court leadership. 4. I was told that he did not like hitting the recruiting trail, going to those AAU-type tournaments and dealing with other recruiting aspects that I will not mention, but have been corroborated here. Perfect recipe for disaster... Never mind that he was receiving the #8-ranked compensation package in college basketball. We're lucky in that Ewing is well aware of recruiting's importance and does something about it. Beating Duke in November will be huge for Pat and the program!
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 9, 2019 19:09:26 GMT -5
For me, the coolest part of this was seeing the image of Big John next to the image of that other John.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jul 9, 2019 19:43:41 GMT -5
For ESPN, this is about as even-handed as one could hope for.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 9, 2019 20:10:33 GMT -5
2. The wheels had to be turned on the Administration. The protest took the rug from under the Administration's and JT2's feet, or in this case, their ability to control the situation/timing. It's revisionist history. Do 30 students planning to show up at Healy Circle on a Wednesday evening after midterms really lead Georgetown to act to quickly fire its head coach? Georgetown doesn't do anything on the spur of the moment. When Jack DeGioia uses phrases like "After careful deliberation...", he's not lying. Since we don't know, the most likely reason for the date of the firing was probably when the buyout payment was received from those who would have that kind of money.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jul 9, 2019 22:08:16 GMT -5
2. The wheels had to be turned on the Administration. The protest took the rug from under the Administration's and JT2's feet, or in this case, their ability to control the situation/timing. It's revisionist history. Do 30 students planning to show up at Healy Circle on a Wednesday evening after midterms really lead Georgetown to act to quickly fire its head coach? Georgetown doesn't do anything on the spur of the moment. When Jack DeGioia uses phrases like "After careful deliberation...", he's not lying. Since we don't know, the most likely reason for the date of the firing was probably when the buyout payment was received from those who would have that kind of money. Totally agree. As a student at the time, not enough people on campus even cared about the basketball team to even show up to Red Square that day. Some home games there would be 10-20 students in attendance. A potential small student protest did not force the University’s hand.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 10, 2019 17:03:03 GMT -5
2. The wheels had to be turned on the Administration. The protest took the rug from under the Administration's and JT2's feet, or in this case, their ability to control the situation/timing. It's revisionist history. Do 30 students planning to show up at Healy Circle on a Wednesday evening after midterms really lead Georgetown to act to quickly fire its head coach? Georgetown doesn't do anything on the spur of the moment. When Jack DeGioia uses phrases like "After careful deliberation...", he's not lying. Since we don't know, the most likely reason... That's a very simplistic way to look at it. It wasn't just the on-campus Red Square event; it was the online protest, the on-campus protests, the signs around GU, the "Fire Esherick" chants inside the arena, the prospects of losing our best returning player in Bowman, IIRC one of the recruits not sure to commit, etc... All of it happened in a very short timeframe, but the on-campus protest brought it real close to home and forced the Administration's hand. Georgetown hates noise. The problem is, contrary to rabid college fanbases, GU alumni, students and our fanbase provide a very long leash... A simple "fire esherick" Google will bring back (fill in the blank) memories.
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Jul 11, 2019 13:55:45 GMT -5
prhoya is right. There was an online petition that spread quickly and had more than 3,300 signatories. They represented many different classes and included people who were known supporters of the University, including some then currently or recently on prominent University boards.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jul 11, 2019 18:53:52 GMT -5
Thoughts on a much tamer article than it could have been: 1. It appears these writers are still a little intimidated by John Thompson, so the argument on Thompson's current influence on the program was muted. 2. Craig Esherick got a fair deal, although the claim of that protest has been historically overblown. The wheels were turning on Craig well before that. 3. I disagree with the playing style argument--a more structured pace worked for Bennett and Beilein but if you don't recruit to the system, it breaks down. Just like the trio of Bethel, Hall, and Harvey Thomas was Esherick swinging for the fences, so too for Peak, Copeland and White as far as JT III's story went. How does JT III's career arc look like if he had focused on Hart, Jenkins, and Booth instead? 4. It was pointed out to me earlier this year by a longtime Georgetown follower that JT III had no plan after Otto Porter and Greg Whittington left. That's when you saw the recruiting reaches and the overall lack of focus. 1. Not sure what you mean, but do you doubt Thompson's current influence on the program? 2. The wheels had to be turned on the Administration. The protest took the rug from under the Administration's and JT2's feet, or in this case, their ability to control the situation/timing. 3. JT3's recruiting evaluations left a lot to be desired. Is it a coincidence that he recruited so few Alpha players? How many can you name? What does that say about him? His teams lacked on-court and off-court leadership. 4. I was told that he did not like hitting the recruiting trail, going to those AAU-type tournaments and dealing with other recruiting aspects that I will not mention, but have been corroborated here. Perfect recipe for disaster... Never mind that he was receiving the #8-ranked compensation package in college basketball. We're lucky in that Ewing is well aware of recruiting's importance and does something about it. Beating Duke in November will be huge for Pat and the program! It seems pretty safe to conclude that had there been no degree of pressure, the administration may well have acted more slowly. The exact nature of the pressure and which forms (petition, calls to the AD, withholding of donations, threatened protest, in-arena chanting) were more effective than others are impossible to know. Money talks, though. We all know that. I can't really agree with your third point, though, regarding the recruitment of "alpha" players. Wallace was a JTIII recruit. He was certainly unheralded and the opposite of flashy, but I would call him absolutely an alpha floor-leader type. Chris Wright certainly was. Markel and DSR were too. Sapp and Trawick were both fiery. He didn't tend to recruit flashy or demonstrative players, and his bigs tended to be non-alpha types. Did his teams largely adopt his personality? Absolutely. And if that's your criticism, I guess that's fair. But jeesh, his recruiting evaluations over the first four-to-six recruiting classes resulted in consistent top ten teams. Things got worse after that, and do did the results, and there's a cycle of diminishing returns there.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 15, 2019 0:44:23 GMT -5
I can't really agree with your third point, though, regarding the recruitment of "alpha" players. Wallace was a JTIII recruit. He was certainly unheralded and the opposite of flashy, but I would call him absolutely an alpha floor-leader type. Chris Wright certainly was. Markel and DSR were too. Sapp and Trawick were both fiery. He didn't tend to recruit flashy or demonstrative players, and his bigs tended to be non-alpha types. Did his teams largely adopt his personality? Absolutely. And if that's your criticism, I guess that's fair. But jeesh, his recruiting evaluations over the first four-to-six recruiting classes resulted in consistent top ten teams. Things got worse after that, and do did the results, and there's a cycle of diminishing returns there. Even if I agree or don't with you on those players, you named 6 players in 13 years as a head coach. That's bad. Compare it to Pat's recruits in 3 years. I will agree with you in that his recruiting led to Top 10 teams early in his coaching career. But, just like JT2, as those first seasons passed and he got a top compensation package (Top 8 at the time), JT3 wasn't as active in recruiting (not going to summer events like Pat is doing, not meeting with visiting prospects and their families, etc...), especially for the level required to have Top 10 teams, and that led to those diminishing returns you mentioned.
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