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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 6, 2018 12:35:37 GMT -5
Article from April 28, 2000 www.thehoya.com/mcdonough-gym-to-be-renovated/“Georgetown University Athletic Director Joseph Lang recently announced renovation plans that would transform 2,200-seat McDonough Gymnasium into a 5,500-seat arena. This renovation would most likely allow the men’s basketball team to play at least some of its Big East games on campus instead of downtown at MCI Center, which seats just over 20,000.” “Once the current building projects, additions and adjustments are made to the Hilltop, the McDonough renovations will rise to the forefront. The long-term renovation plans stipulate that the court will be rotated about 90 degrees and the seats will rise towards each end which currently honors the program’s various accomplishments and greatest players.” Unbelievable that this STILL hasn’t been done,despite all the well known obstacles. I thought this was the plan that would NOT require neighborhood approvals because of the fact that it was a renovation to an existing space. Is that right? I think a 5,500 seat venue would be perfect for the OOC games aside from the few "big" ones we have (and what's that, one or two a year?). Georgetown certainly won't push for this themselves. But, my question is, if a donor were to dump $X million to do this, do people think it would get done? Given that that donor is likely not coming anytime soon, I wouldn't count on that ever happening but curious what everybody thinks.
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Post by thebasketballopinion on Dec 6, 2018 13:15:29 GMT -5
In the past I have tried to organize Meetup groups to schedule HH prior to games. You could legit get into the Liberty game for under $5. Absolutely horrible to only have 4,011 (paid) attendance for that game.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 6, 2018 13:29:12 GMT -5
Article from April 28, 2000 www.thehoya.com/mcdonough-gym-to-be-renovated/“Georgetown University Athletic Director Joseph Lang recently announced renovation plans that would transform 2,200-seat McDonough Gymnasium into a 5,500-seat arena. This renovation would most likely allow the men’s basketball team to play at least some of its Big East games on campus instead of downtown at MCI Center, which seats just over 20,000.” “Once the current building projects, additions and adjustments are made to the Hilltop, the McDonough renovations will rise to the forefront. The long-term renovation plans stipulate that the court will be rotated about 90 degrees and the seats will rise towards each end which currently honors the program’s various accomplishments and greatest players.” Unbelievable that this STILL hasn’t been done,despite all the well known obstacles. I thought this was the plan that would NOT require neighborhood approvals because of the fact that it was a renovation to an existing space. Is that right? I think a 5,500 seat venue would be perfect for the OOC games aside from the few "big" ones we have (and what's that, one or two a year?). Georgetown certainly won't push for this themselves. But, my question is, if a donor were to dump $X million to do this, do people think it would get done? Given that that donor is likely not coming anytime soon, I wouldn't count on that ever happening but curious what everybody thinks. Looking at this year's schedule, GU would hold 9 OOC games at the bigger McD and the rest (BE games) at Capital One Arena. All big OOC games (Syracuse at home, interleague challenges, etc...) would go to Cap. One. Therefore, the University would need to negotiate a max limit of just nine games/dates with the neighbors. Would the neighbors really mind a maximum of 9 games on campus a year? I'm sure they would mind if it suddenly becomes a concert venue, but that also can be negotiated.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 6, 2018 15:49:06 GMT -5
I thought this was the plan that would NOT require neighborhood approvals because of the fact that it was a renovation to an existing space. Is that right? I think a 5,500 seat venue would be perfect for the OOC games aside from the few "big" ones we have (and what's that, one or two a year?). Georgetown certainly won't push for this themselves. But, my question is, if a donor were to dump $X million to do this, do people think it would get done? Given that that donor is likely not coming anytime soon, I wouldn't count on that ever happening but curious what everybody thinks. Looking at this year's schedule, GU would hold 9 OOC games at the bigger McD and the rest (BE games) at Capital One Arena. All big OOC games (Syracuse at home, interleague challenges, etc...) would go to Cap. One. Therefore, the University would need to negotiate a max limit of just nine games/dates with the neighbors. Would the neighbors really mind a maximum of 9 games on campus a year? I'm sure they would mind if it suddenly becomes a concert venue, but that also can be negotiated. You also would hype it as a way to keep students on campus. If 2500 of those coming would be students, then you are talking 3K coming in from Rosslyn & Dupont metro coupled with driving. This also would give the program the ability to include these games for high donation levels in the 100's. Another incentive to get those site lines 400 sitters to step up.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Dec 6, 2018 16:13:37 GMT -5
I'm assuming that part of the reason the expanded McD has not occurred is the contract with the Cap1 Center. If that contract essentially commits the Hoyas to hosting all, or effectively all home games at Cap1, there is no real purpose in expanding McD's seating capacity. If it can be renegotiated (or if the rumors about the Cap1 contract are incorrect), I am all for expanding the seating at McD and moving smaller gate games there. One of the most fun games I attended was the NIT game in 2005 against Fullerton at McD. That place was rocking with 2,000 in attendance--imagine the volume with 4 or 5k...
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 6, 2018 17:06:47 GMT -5
I think it's highly naive to think the neighborhood folk wouldn't object to even limited games on campus that would involve 3K people coming in. Maybe it's true that they would not have standing to object (because it's a "redesign" of an "existing" facility), but I've always had a hard time believing that. Even if it's ultimately true that GU can do it without neighborhood approval, I think there'd be a small war fought (litigation, etc.) before that result were ensured. I guess all I'm saying is that I'm 100% sure that it wouldn't be quick or easy...even if we had the financing to do it.
Sure, the neighbors' concerns can be ameliorated with negotiations (in the sense that virtually anything can be), but I just don't know that the University would be willing to pay whatever the increased costs would be as a result of the negotiation.
Finally, part of the original plan linked to above was that the offices currently in McDonough would be moved to a facility adjoining the football field. This was all before the basketball facility was planned or built of course. It's not unsolvable figuring out where to put the current offices, but it is a challenge and they would need to go somewhere. There's not insignificant costs associated with that aspect of things too.
(I actually think the Cap1 lease would be the least of the problems. I may well be wrong, but I just don't know that Cap1 would turn down Georgetown for a smaller set of games. They had a ton of leverage when the old BE required that games be played in certain sized venues, and they have a ton of leverage now because we have nowhere else to go at all, but my understanding is that the league is much more flexible now. Thus, in theory, we could rebuild McDonough and play every game there. I'm not saying we'd want to (and the negotiations with the neighbors would be more difficult), but Cap1 doesn't have that imperative as the ultimate bargaining chip. So...they may well want more per game or something, but some dates where the facility isn't dark is better than more dark dates from their perspective.)
The bottom line is that there's a ton of moving parts here. It's a big, big challenge. At a University not known for handling even small challenges particular well, particularly when it comes to facilities.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Dec 6, 2018 18:12:24 GMT -5
If we want to make sure than NO ONE shows up to our games, we should definitely play them in South East. I think most of us agree that the ideal would be a 7,000-9,000 on campus arena, but we also know that will never happen. Perhaps more seating could be added to McD to bring it up to 4,000 or so which would make it a more palatable spot for OOC games, but even that may be a fantasy. For the foreseeable future, the only real option is to make the MCI/Verizon/Cap1 Center a more livable home for the Hoyas. The reality is that with the exception of a relatively small handful of programs (almost all of which are large public schools in towns with no major pro sports), a 20,000 seat arena is far too big. While the Chinatown location is less than ideal for the students, it is perfect for bringing in the community due to its very central location--but the community support is not coming back until there is a quality product being offered. I see a few things that can/need to be done for that to happen: 1. First and most importantly, they need to start winning---regular season and March. Without this, nothing else will really matter. 2. The 400 level should not be sold--and if possible covered--for all but the biggest games. I know some have noted that there are some good sight lines from the 400s and you can get cheap seats up there. But I have seen 100s level seats being sold for under 10 on stubhub, so at this point price should not be a big concern. This is not simply about how it looks on TV (although I do believe that matters)--what it really is about is atmosphere. If you take 8000 fans (which as of late would be quite the accomplishment) and scatter them around Cap1, it appears empty and sounds quiet. You take those same 8000 and confine them mainly to the 100s, and now you have fans close in, feeding off of each other--and more importantly--feeding their energy to the home team. And here is the other thing--atmosphere matters to casual fans. A casual fan goes to a game with 4000 people spread out in a giant arena, and good chance they leave unimpressed and don't return. That same casual fan goes to a more intimate and electric experience, there is a good chance that fan wants to return. 3. More needs to be done to get students to the games. I'm sure Hoya Blue or whoever the student support group is these days is doing their darndest--but it ain't working at the moment. I also recognize that as with the community support, students probably won't come back in droves until the team demonstrates that it is back to prominence. But in college arenas, student sections drive the atmosphere and energy--so more needs to be done. A good student section will also help bring back some of the casual fans who aren't all that excited about watching basketball in a church. This is exactly what I meant. It's about concentrating the people that do show up and creating a better experience. This is a no brainer to me. If you prefer being higher up, the 200's are even better site lines than the 400's. Again, ticket costs shouldn't be an issue with them firesaling them all these days. Better OOC opponents, better game day experience, etc. All of these are factors. Some are easily fixed (concentrating the fans), some are going to take some time (top 20 program consistently). Let's start with what we can control. The issue is that consolidation is difficult to achieve. Most of section 100 is season ticket holders (big section on camera behind the official table). If people don’t use their tickets for a game and they don’t use the existing exchange program, the university can’t just assume the seats are open and give them away to people from other sections. I get wanting a better environment, I want that too. But as others have stated a lot of the noise and excitement comes from a large student section. The sideline sections just don’t stand or make much noise, so filling those won’t make much difference. At the CCSU game I stood up to clap and cheer during the starting lineup introductions, and a family behind me told me to sit down. The game hadn’t even started yet! And if people aren’t making noise in the 200 level, why would they make noise if they were consolidated to the 100 level. You might just be alienating those fans by moving them to a seat they didn’t select, especially if it’s not an upgrade (and no behind the basket is not an upgrade). So two things have to happen. There needs to be an incentive for season ticket holders to attend the games or use the existing exchange program (for those that don’t know, season ticket holders that can’t attend a game can trade that ticket for an extra ticket at another game). In addition, there needs to be an incentive for students to attend the games. The obvious solutions are a better Georgetown team, opponents with bigger names or bigger fan bases (notice I didn’t necessarily say better opponents), and giveaways/promotions. At the end of last season there was a survey sent out to season ticket holders to give suggestions on improving the game experience at capital one arena. One of my suggestions was some kind of a loyalty program to help with incentivizing people to buy tickets and attend games. Maybe students that attend x games get a free ticket to the big east tournament. Or maybe a season ticket holder that attends every game gets put in a drawing to have lunch with coach Ewing. Or maybe you just earn enough points to get an extra ticket for a big game. I’m sure there are other ideas and better ideas, but we need to keep in mind what’s realistic and what is logistically possible.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 6, 2018 18:23:41 GMT -5
I think it's highly naive to think the neighborhood folk wouldn't object to even limited games on campus that would involve 3K people coming in. Maybe it's true that they would not have standing to object (because it's a "redesign" of an "existing" facility), but I've always had a hard time believing that. Even if it's ultimately true that GU can do it without neighborhood approval, I think there'd be a small war fought (litigation, etc.) before that result were ensured. I guess all I'm saying is that I'm 100% sure that it wouldn't be quick or easy...even if we had the financing to do it. The issue in the 2000 plan (imagine this: 7,200 seats, 18 months, cost of $22 million, and GU passed) was that an indoor renovation did not require Old Georgetown Board or DC Commission of Fine Arts approval. It's like gutting a living room. As long as the exterior is untouched and the permits are granted, a resident can do whatever they wants. Remember, McD regularly sat 4,000 from the mid-60's through 1981. They once put 9,000 at Kehoe Field (pre-roof) in the 1960's, too and Reunion certainly has more than 2,200 on the grounds.
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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 6, 2018 18:23:44 GMT -5
Looking at this year's schedule, GU would hold 9 OOC games at the bigger McD and the rest (BE games) at Capital One Arena. All big OOC games (Syracuse at home, interleague challenges, etc...) would go to Cap. One. Therefore, the University would need to negotiate a max limit of just nine games/dates with the neighbors. Would the neighbors really mind a maximum of 9 games on campus a year? I'm sure they would mind if it suddenly becomes a concert venue, but that also can be negotiated. You also would hype it as a way to keep students on campus. If 2500 of those coming would be students, then you are talking 3K coming in from Rosslyn & Dupont metro coupled with driving. This also would give the program the ability to include these games for high donation levels in the 100's. Another incentive to get those site lines 400 sitters to step up. Step up!? Step up to what? You make it sound like I'm doing something wrong by attending 95% of all home games for the last 12 years in seats that I really like. Can you really be that arrogant that just because you sit somewhere "better" by your standards that you can imply my choice is somehow unworthy of a Hoya fan? How ridiculous. I'm not an alum BTW. My ties to the program go way, way back, but I didn't attend Georgetown and I have no interest in making donations to the university. I donate regularly to my alma mater and that's enough for me, thanks. Step up... good lord.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 7, 2018 11:34:53 GMT -5
You also would hype it as a way to keep students on campus. If 2500 of those coming would be students, then you are talking 3K coming in from Rosslyn & Dupont metro coupled with driving. This also would give the program the ability to include these games for high donation levels in the 100's. Another incentive to get those site lines 400 sitters to step up. Step up!? Step up to what? You make it sound like I'm doing something wrong by attending 95% of all home games for the last 12 years in seats that I really like. Can you really be that arrogant that just because you sit somewhere "better" by your standards that you can imply my choice is somehow unworthy of a Hoya fan? How ridiculous. I'm not an alum BTW. My ties to the program go way, way back, but I didn't attend Georgetown and I have no interest in making donations to the university. I donate regularly to my alma mater and that's enough for me, thanks. Step up... good lord. WHOA, hold on there. It wasn't intended to be a personal shot at all. Let's say you had these options though: 1) Keep your seats but only have the Cap One games available (under the wild assumption we get a viable 5K arena so let's not get too excited)? 2) Pay more to upgrade your seats and move to the lower bowl and have the full season available including up to 9 McDonough games? I am curious what you would choose. It would give the University some leverage. Also, thank you for your service. I sat through those Esh years too. Frankly we need a lot more of you (local non-alums) to attend so curious how the school makes it more attractive to that segment of the crowd.
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McBricks
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Post by McBricks on Dec 7, 2018 16:41:38 GMT -5
I think it's highly naive to think the neighborhood folk wouldn't object to even limited games on campus that would involve 3K people coming in. Maybe it's true that they would not have standing to object (because it's a "redesign" of an "existing" facility), but I've always had a hard time believing that. Even if it's ultimately true that GU can do it without neighborhood approval, I think there'd be a small war fought (litigation, etc.) before that result were ensured. I guess all I'm saying is that I'm 100% sure that it wouldn't be quick or easy...even if we had the financing to do it. The issue in the 2000 plan (imagine this: 7,200 seats, 18 months, cost of $22 million, and GU passed) was that an indoor renovation did not require Old Georgetown Board or DC Commission of Fine Arts approval. It's like gutting a living room. As long as the exterior is untouched and the permits are granted, a resident can do whatever they wants. Remember, McD regularly sat 4,000 from the mid-60's through 1981. They once put 9,000 at Kehoe Field (pre-roof) in the 1960's, too and Reunion certainly has more than 2,200 on the grounds. Playing at McDonough in front of 4,500 would be incredible and would solve a ton of problems while actually give us a great home court advantage that we lack at MCI/Verizon/Cap. Are we saying that we couldn't get a contract at Cap that allows us to only play "big" games there? Why not?
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Dec 7, 2018 19:22:00 GMT -5
There’s a reason that not a single pro arena in any major US city (Boston, NYC, Philly, DC, Miami, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, LA, SF, or Seattle) hosts every single game for a D1 team other than our set up at the Cap One and Marquette at the new Fiserv arena. College sports don’t move the needle in cities with pro teams and a variety of other cultural diversions.
Furthermore by capacity our arena is only smaller than the Carrier Dome, Rupp Arena, Louisville’s Arena, the Dean Dome, and Tennessee’s Arena in terms of college venues.
There’s no good answer to the problem and the clear lack of a home court advantage, but winning is usually an elixir for most ills.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 8, 2018 13:18:11 GMT -5
My intuition is that while winning would certainly help, it wouldn't fix all problems. I think there are some fundamental changes since the last time our attendance was good/acceptable that would make it difficult for us to get back to those numbers for anything other than the most marquee out of conference games (eg. Duke, Cuse, Maryland) where the opposing team is bringing a ton of fans.
No offense to those representing the views of non-student season ticket holders--you are an important component of the program's success and viability. But to me, probably 98% of the people who interact with the program will never set foot in the arena for one of our home games. It's a television product. It's the only exposure that most people in the country will ever have to Georgetown University. The primary goal should be optimizing the quality of the television production. What we're putting out there right now, as a tv product (forgetting the basketball product), borders on embarrassing. Recruits want to play in an environment that's "lit", and other prospective students want to be a part of that atmosphere too. Getting to that from where we are (essentially the opposite of that) should be our top priority, even if that means rubbing a few people in the current season ticket holder base the wrong way.
For me, it's pretty simple--Cap One is never going to be that environment. Neither is the Mystics/Go-Gos building. The answer is that the vast majority of our home court games need to be on-campus in our own gym. That includes all of our out of conference games with the exception of the 1 or 2 biggest games per year, and most of our weeknight Big East games too. Sorry to anybody who thinks otherwise, but even if we get our team back to being in the Top 25, weeknight home games against Providence, Creighton, Butler, Depaul, St. Johns etc. aren't going to pack Capital One. I'd much rather have 4K people crammed into McDonough for St. John's on a Wednesday than 7 or 8K people spread out across 3 levels of a monstrous NBA arena. It's a television product.
I think by now we can all agree that building an on-campus arena with capacity of 8-10K people is a fantasy. But I'm not trying to be the Cintas Center or even Nova's Pavilion. I want to be the college basketball analog of the ECW arena. It should be small, tight, crowded, intimate. And loud. I want something that's engineered specifically to look good on tv. Maybe this is a little out there, but I'd even be open to having fans on only 3 sides of the court--behind both baskets and along one sideline. On the other side of the court would be the hard camera, and maybe those obligatory seats that you have to give to the visiting team. I'm envisioning something that looks more like a basketball court in the middle of a soundstage in a tv studio than a traditional arena.
Anyway, whatever modifications we can make to McDonough to fit more people in and create a better tv product without needing zoning and neighborhood approval, we should make. Whether that's rotating the court, or knocking down other walls to fit more seats, or whatever. I haven't been in McD in a decade but I was under the impression that most of the offices would be migrating to the new facility, which should enable us to knock out at least one of the walls and add some additional seats. I'd be open to different ways of getting to that, but the goal is that when FS1 or whatever other tv network sets up their cameras, they are seeing the court and a packed house full of loud fans.
I know there are some objections to this kinda thing:
-Big East rules about arena capacity
A relic from a conference that was different in everything but name. No place for it in 2018, in a conference where we are one of the primary shotcallers. Work with Val Ackerman to get this off the books if it's still on there. Nobody can deny that this would be a much better look for Georgetown and the league than empty Cap One.
- The deal with Cap One requires us to play every game there
Renegotiate. For the right price we will get it for the handful of dates we want. This isn't set in stone.
-Neighborhood/zoning issues
Building out McD presents more issues, but if all of what we're doing is renovating the inside, this shouldn't be a huge problem. I imagine there's a cap on how many people we'd be permitted to have in the space, and that's what we'd pursue. But we shouldn't need to get neighbor approvals to remodel the interior.
-I'm a season ticket holder and I don't like it because I won't be able to get a ticket to every game in a smaller building/hard to get to campus/not enough parking/my beloved sight lines will be impacted/etc.
Watch it on tv. Sorry, but it ain't about you. I'd guess that most non-student season ticket holders would be content to attend a handful of games on Saturdays at Cap One against prominent national and Big East opponents, and not be on the hook for Liberty, Little Rock, App State, et. al. A subset may want to see them all, and a couple thousand fans will still be able, and the university can facilitate with some additional shuttles from the Roslyn Metro. But inevitably, some people will get squeezed out. This is unfortunate, but necessary. The first priorities here are the players, recruits, and undergrad fans. They are what this should all be about. The next priority is the 98% of all people with any connection to the team who will never set foot in the arena and will instead watch on tv, often times in the highest of high definition. There will be room for some alumni and local fans on campus, especially the big donors when/if they want to be there. Others may have to pick their spots, or just watch on tv and go to the handful of games at Cap One. It's for a greater good.
I think that this is where this is all headed. A lot of people like to suggest that if we win more the attendance issues at Cap One will be fixed, or if we schedule better it'll be fixed. Both will help, but neither would truly fix the problem. Without our former conference-mates like WVU, Pitt, Cuse, UConn etc. bringing a ton of people to the building, I think the vast majority of our games will have attendance issues. I'd much rather have games in a small facility where not everyone can get into every game than what we see on tv now. Eventually I think the university community will come around on this, and I just hope we don't wait too long. Recognize college basketball for what it is, embrace it, and optimize for student experience and tv value.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 29, 2018 18:25:56 GMT -5
Random thing that's perhaps relevant to this discussion: Somehow I'm still on a Seton Hall mailing list from buying a ticket at Prudential several years ago. I happened to notice in their emails, and then I checked into their Athletics website, that they're marketing tonight's game against St. John's as a sell-out: shupirates.com/news/2018/12/28/mens-basketball-3-things-about-saturdays-sold-out-big-east-opener.aspxNow, what they mean by that is a "lower bowl sell-out", so they're probably expecting around 10-11,000 tonight rather than the full 18,700-something. Still, it's worth noting that Seton Hall has been using the lower bowl strategy as far as I know since they moved into the Prudential Center. One of the benefits of this is they can get away with claiming a "sell-out" in a situation like this(*)...something that at least SOUNDS good when you read it (I at least though "huh, I guess SHU-SJU is a bigger deal than I'd have expected" and I imagine it fools enough people). (*And in one of their promo materials I believe they referenced having seven lower bowl sell-outs at Prudential) Of course, we've discussed many times before the possible benefits of consolidating your fanbase into the lower bowl. 10,000 fans in the lower bowl tonight will sound/look way better than even a couple thousand more spread everywhere. And of course SHU won't always get to 10,000 fans (in the first five years of the Big East, we've cleared 10k less than half the time, and less often in the past couple years), so keeping everyone in the lower bowl makes it look/sound better for the TV.
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Post by iheartdurenbros on Dec 29, 2018 21:49:33 GMT -5
Don’t know how many of you have followed Christine Burns over the years, but she has provided great photos of the games on her IG and Facebook feeds. Casual has used her photos as well.
As a post script I have been thinking a letter to Monumental Sports was in order. They wouldn’t let me bring a back pack in because of its size. It was a cloth backpack that easily would have fit in the box because it was super easy to fold. Fortunately someone suggested that I check it at the Hotel Monaco. (Hot tip for anyone else).
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 30, 2018 22:18:56 GMT -5
We have 7,000 undergraduates and sometimes less than 300 show up for a game. I'm gonna be a little nit-picky here and point out that the various undergraduate enrollment numbers reported by the university tend to give the impression that the traditional, residential undergraduate student body is larger than it is. The incoming freshman class each year is ~1,580, and the cap per the campus plan is 6,675 (this includes part-time students and students studying abroad in a given semester). Point being, it's really closer to 6k than 7k in terms of undergrads who are residing on campus at a given time. A fan base is not solely built on wins and losses, it can't be. It must be built on loyalty and continuity. There are many symptoms (opponents, time and date, gameday presentation, etc.), but attendance is a function of our collective interest. We as a community, a campus, and a city, do not give Georgetown basketball the support and priority we once did, plain and simple. Jessie Govan can't fix that, and neither can Patrick Ewing. Only we can. And we haven't. ... The building isn't the problem. On balance, I tend to think the arena helps more than it hurts. It's a top-flight professional facility that broadcasts "Big Time" and offers the program an instant veneer of credibility. To the extent that the experience is sorely lacking right now, it's a lot easier to explain to recruits and others as "we're rebuilding back up to our rightful place." It's not like Nova or even Duke have jam-packed, electric atmospheres for their non-conference creampuff slate either. What I find really interesting and worth diving into, though, are the broader points raised by you and RBHoya. I have a hard time disagreeing with my friend RB that college basketball is, at this point, principally a TV product. At the same time, you are right to both call out the various factors that go into in-person attendance and highlight overall interest and investment in the program as the overarching cause of the current...let's call it a malaise. Where I land after all that, plus my own observations, is that Georgetown basketball as entertainment option has two strikes against it from the get-go. The TV and internet landscape offers countless option for entertainment, live sports and otherwise, from the comfort of your abode. The area surrounding campus, the District proper, and the broader DMV area are overflowing with other options for all tastes and ages. By way of comparison, the Wizards have seen their attendance decline as well from the heyday of 2006-2008. On the other hand, even if most college environments cannot offer the amenities of the Nation's Capital, the TV and internet plethora remains readily available. What that leads me to conclude is that the different is primarily social and cultural. It's socially expected to go to Creighton games... even if you didn't attend the University! There is a culture of supporting the Creighton sports programs that goes above and beyond the pure entertainment value of the sport and any in-game programming. Much of the benefit, entertainment and otherwise, comes from experiencing it with others. It's a ritual, with all that entails. Once upon a time, Georgetown had that, and it made a huge different on both the in-person and on-TV experience. But it proved to be a much more fickle thing than it might have with a different institution, for reasons that are debatable but have a lot to do with some of Georgetown's peculiarities as an institution (not necessarily negative on balance - big-time college sports is a big-time dirty business). So what do we do about it? Well, there's lots of possibilities, and not enough resources to pursue them all. But before specific decisions can be made, we have to agree on what problem it is we're solving and to what end. I don't get the feeling that the basketball program, the AD, and the University administration are all on the same page in this regard.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2018 22:40:43 GMT -5
We have 7,000 undergraduates and sometimes less than 300 show up for a game. I'm gonna be a little nit-picky here and point out that the various undergraduate enrollment numbers reported by the university tend to give the impression that the traditional, residential undergraduate student body is larger than it is. The incoming freshman class each year is ~1,580, and the cap per the campus plan is 6,675 (this includes part-time students and students studying abroad in a given semester). Point being, it's really closer to 6k than 7k in terms of undergrads who are residing on campus at a given time. A fan base is not solely built on wins and losses, it can't be. It must be built on loyalty and continuity. There are many symptoms (opponents, time and date, gameday presentation, etc.), but attendance is a function of our collective interest. We as a community, a campus, and a city, do not give Georgetown basketball the support and priority we once did, plain and simple. Jessie Govan can't fix that, and neither can Patrick Ewing. Only we can. And we haven't. ... The building isn't the problem. On balance, I tend to think the arena helps more than it hurts. It's a top-flight professional facility that broadcasts "Big Time" and offers the program an instant veneer of credibility. To the extent that the experience is sorely lacking right now, it's a lot easier to explain to recruits and others as "we're rebuilding back up to our rightful place." It's not like Nova or even Duke have jam-packed, electric atmospheres for their non-conference creampuff slate either.
What I find really interesting and worth diving into, though, are the broader points raised by you and RBHoya . I have a hard time disagreeing with my friend RB that college basketball is, at this point, principally a TV product. At the same time, you are right to both call out the various factors that go into in-person attendance and highlight overall interest and investment in the program as the overarching cause of the current...let's call it a malaise. Where I land after all that, plus my own observations, is that Georgetown basketball as entertainment option has two strikes against it from the get-go. The TV and internet landscape offers countless option for entertainment, live sports and otherwise, from the comfort of your abode. The area surrounding campus, the District proper, and the broader DMV area are overflowing with other options for all tastes and ages. By way of comparison, the Wizards have seen their attendance decline as well from the heyday of 2006-2008. On the other hand, even if most college environments cannot offer the amenities of the Nation's Capital, the TV and internet plethora remains readily available. What that leads me to conclude is that the different is primarily social and cultural. It's socially expected to go to Creighton games... even if you didn't attend the University! There is a culture of supporting the Creighton sports programs that goes above and beyond the pure entertainment value of the sport and any in-game programming. Much of the benefit, entertainment and otherwise, comes from experiencing it with others. It's a ritual, with all that entails. Once upon a time, Georgetown had that, and it made a huge different on both the in-person and on-TV experience. But it proved to be a much more fickle thing than it might have with a different institution, for reasons that are debatable but have a lot to do with some of Georgetown's peculiarities as an institution (not necessarily negative on balance - big-time college sports is a big-time dirty business). So what do we do about it? Well, there's lots of possibilities, and not enough resources to pursue them all. But before specific decisions can be made, we have to agree on what problem it is we're solving and to what end. I don't get the feeling that the basketball program, the AD, and the University administration are all on the same page in this regard. Tough to use Duke as a comp here - happy to be proven wrong but I believe all their games, including cupcake OOC are (reported, at least) sell-outs. Also don’t think their student section is wanting due exams schedule, school breaks, Lauinger cram sessions, etc.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,596
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Post by RusskyHoya on Dec 30, 2018 23:06:43 GMT -5
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Post by practice on Dec 31, 2018 9:16:18 GMT -5
Winning would be the best improvement to the game attendance and atmosphere issues re: Capital One. Attendance was strong after G-Town made its last Final Four run. The slow decline over the past decade has worn down both season ticket holders and the casual fan. Also the departure of the football schools from the Big East has really hurt attendance -- Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, and WV all were big games b/c of the large alumni bases of those schools. Good riddance to them! Once the Hoyas start winning, fans will come back. The fact is that this style of basketball is more entertaining to watch than the JT3 era. The team needs to relevant -- in the AP rankings, in March ... etc.
One other point: have you met any undergrads recently? Georgetown students are, by and large, not the sports fans of yesteryear. These young people are all seemingly renaissance types -- students, musicians, humanitarians, artists, etc. -- not the type of kid who watches multiple basketball games every week.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 9:30:23 GMT -5
Thanks and interesting. I probably misrepresented my post as the article still suggests they’re not having a problem filling Cameron (yes, even with a ridiculously successful team, still less than 10k capacity). I’ll take a consistent 10k at Capital One (using lower bowl type suggestions that others have made) with few students vs. 6,000 total attendance with 1,000 students (using the extreme and understanding that the answer’s somewhere in between). Agree that Capital One shows fine from a venue perspective on TV ... when seats are at least moderately filled in the lower bowl/student sections.
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