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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 12, 2018 8:28:27 GMT -5
I think you may be spending too much time posting and not watching during the game. Sure our guards should drive and dish but that's not happening on a regular basis. If it was we wouldn't be sitting here complaining that we need guards. Our guards are driving and turning it over or throwing up wild shots at a far higher rate than they are doing anything positive. By the way I'm talking about the games vs actual teams. I could care less what happened vs the cupcakes. Actually they do drive and dish. We're 4th nationally (yes in the nation) and first in the conference in assist percentage, lead by our guards. They turn it over at a high rate and they generally can't shoot, but they do run the offense. When it works, it's great. It just needs more talent to work more often. Zactly. 2nd in the conference is assists.
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Jan 12, 2018 9:46:33 GMT -5
I agree the Jessie needs more good shots of any variety, especially given the shooting shortcomings of some of our team. That said, I think Jessie could feast on the dribble pick handoff for a stepback that was Hollis' money shot for his college career. This could be particularly effective when teams are packing it in down low, denying our big men shots, and closing driving lanes for everyone else (daring us to shoot). For once we'd be sending a big outside the paint who can actually hurt the other team with his offensive game (not some Bradley Hayes screen 30 feet from the hoop). We could change it up and have Marcus do the same thing if it wasn't working for Jessie in a given game or part of a game. As for rebounding, I also think Antwan seems particularly capable and active on this score. Plus, Jagan rebounds well for his size/position. There's no way we should lose to Creighton with Jessie and Marcus combining for so few shots. Bring them out, screen for them, etc. It's exactly what Creighton did to us and there bigs aren't as good.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 12, 2018 10:28:00 GMT -5
Let's bring this back to Jessie. He should be getting more 3's drawn up for him. A simple pick and pop will get the job done and no turnovers so everyone is happy. The problem with trying to run a pick & pop with Jessie is that the defense will choose to take him 99% of the time.. Jessie needs to get his 3's from transition or heavy ball movement.. This may be the case eventually when he makes them but the few times they have run it so far that has not been the case.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 12, 2018 10:38:01 GMT -5
Actually they do drive and dish. We're 4th nationally (yes in the nation) and first in the conference in assist percentage, lead by our guards. They turn it over at a high rate and they generally can't shoot, but they do run the offense. When it works, it's great. It just needs more talent to work more often. Zactly. 2nd in the conference is assists. You guys are acting like all these assists are coming from drive and dish. Ours assists come from dumping the ball down to Jessie and Marcus and in transition. We also get some when we pass the ball along the perimeter and guys take jump shots. In conference games we are 8th in assists, last in turnovers and last in FG %. We aren't getting easy shots from drive and dish or that wouldn't be the case. Stop using our season stats to try to prove your point. We played the worst OOC EVER. Of course our stats from those are going to be greatly inflated.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 12, 2018 10:48:44 GMT -5
Are there any sources that break down shot selection (i.e., jumpers, layups, dunks)? I know Hoya Prospectus used to do it, and there used to be another site that's not updated anymore that had done it. I am curious what Govan's actual percentages are on two point jump shots versus threes.
Even at Govan's current three point shooting percentage (34.8%), he'd have to hit two point jumpers at 52.2% or higher to make it a "better" shot. Given that Govan's overall percentages from two are 56% (which includes dunks/layups, obviously), I am skeptical he's at 52 or higher on jumpers, but he does make a fair percentage so it's possible.
Last year, he shot 40% from three. At that rate, you'd have to hit two point jumpers at 60% to make it a better shot.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 12, 2018 11:00:30 GMT -5
Zactly. 2nd in the conference is assists. You guys are acting like all these assists are coming from drive and dish. Ours assists come from dumping the ball down to Jessie and Marcus and in transition. We also get some when we pass the ball along the perimeter and guys take jump shots. In conference games we are 8th in assists, last in turnovers and last in FG %. We aren't getting easy shots from drive and dish or that wouldn't be the case. Stop using our season stats to try to prove your point. We played the worst OOC EVER. Of course our stats from those are going to be greatly inflated. Man, just say you were wrong and you don't or didn't what you were talking about lol... it's okay. Sighs...
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 12, 2018 11:00:45 GMT -5
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 12, 2018 11:53:13 GMT -5
Haven't seen it mentioned since the game but I wanted to bring up Jessie's move where he got the ball at the top of the key, took a dribble right then did a crossover for a quick pullup at the elbow. That was a thing of beauty and not something many bigmen can do.
As much as I don't want it to happen, Jessie should eye the pros after this year. If he wants to stay to improve his game even more, it will benefit him, but he has all the skills to play professionally. If he dominates Delgado tomorrow, expect to see his name high on most draft lists.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Jan 12, 2018 16:02:49 GMT -5
Are there any sources that break down shot selection (i.e., jumpers, layups, dunks)? I know Hoya Prospectus used to do it, and there used to be another site that's not updated anymore that had done it. I am curious what Govan's actual percentages are on two point jump shots versus threes. Even at Govan's current three point shooting percentage (34.8%), he'd have to hit two point jumpers at 52.2% or higher to make it a "better" shot. Given that Govan's overall percentages from two are 56% (which includes dunks/layups, obviously), I am skeptical he's at 52 or higher on jumpers, but he does make a fair percentage so it's possible. Last year, he shot 40% from three. At that rate, you'd have to hit two point jumpers at 60% to make it a better shot. Not so much a question of Jessie being good at the shot as of Doc being a better option among our bigs.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 12, 2018 17:19:38 GMT -5
You guys are acting like all these assists are coming from drive and dish. Ours assists come from dumping the ball down to Jessie and Marcus and in transition. We also get some when we pass the ball along the perimeter and guys take jump shots. In conference games we are 8th in assists, last in turnovers and last in FG %. We aren't getting easy shots from drive and dish or that wouldn't be the case. Stop using our season stats to try to prove your point. We played the worst OOC EVER. Of course our stats from those are going to be greatly inflated. Man, just say you were wrong and you don't or didn't what you were talking about lol... it's okay. Sighs... You sure are one to talk. Your basketball analysis is skeptical at best. Ill go with what I see.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 12, 2018 17:22:28 GMT -5
Are there any sources that break down shot selection (i.e., jumpers, layups, dunks)? I know Hoya Prospectus used to do it, and there used to be another site that's not updated anymore that had done it. I am curious what Govan's actual percentages are on two point jump shots versus threes. Even at Govan's current three point shooting percentage (34.8%), he'd have to hit two point jumpers at 52.2% or higher to make it a "better" shot. Given that Govan's overall percentages from two are 56% (which includes dunks/layups, obviously), I am skeptical he's at 52 or higher on jumpers, but he does make a fair percentage so it's possible. Last year, he shot 40% from three. At that rate, you'd have to hit two point jumpers at 60% to make it a better shot. I was going to bring the 60/40% up but slipped my mind. That is they whole point yeah he's a good shooter from 12 feet but I doubt he's 60% good. If he is then he should be unstoppable and the block shouldn't be where we force him to go most possessions. It's all analytics but we know that is not the strong point of this program and sure not of some of these posters.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 12, 2018 17:30:25 GMT -5
Haven't seen it mentioned since the game but I wanted to bring up Jessie's move where he got the ball at the top of the key, took a dribble right then did a crossover for a quick pullup at the elbow. That was a thing of beauty and not something many bigmen can do. As much as I don't want it to happen, Jessie should eye the pros after this year. If he wants to stay to improve his game even more, it will benefit him, but he has all the skills to play professionally. If he dominates Delgado tomorrow, expect to see his name high on most draft lists. Man, please don't be cramming Govan's head with crazy talk. We absolutely need him back next year when we some guards.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jan 12, 2018 19:29:57 GMT -5
Are there any sources that break down shot selection (i.e., jumpers, layups, dunks)? I know Hoya Prospectus used to do it, and there used to be another site that's not updated anymore that had done it. I am curious what Govan's actual percentages are on two point jump shots versus threes. Even at Govan's current three point shooting percentage (34.8%), he'd have to hit two point jumpers at 52.2% or higher to make it a "better" shot. Given that Govan's overall percentages from two are 56% (which includes dunks/layups, obviously), I am skeptical he's at 52 or higher on jumpers, but he does make a fair percentage so it's possible. Last year, he shot 40% from three. At that rate, you'd have to hit two point jumpers at 60% to make it a better shot. I was going to bring the 60/40% up but slipped my mind. That is they whole point yeah he's a good shooter from 12 feet but I doubt he's 60% good. If he is then he should be unstoppable and the block shouldn't be where we force him to go most possessions. It's all analytics but we know that is not the strong point of this program and sure not of some of these posters. Ah well, analytics God. Please breakdown Jessie Govan's shooting percentage by place on the court. Then please breakdown how he gets that shot (pass, dribble, coming off a screen) and then we can continue this conversation. More importantly, sticking Govan on the three point line does little for his development to get to far NBA. He has too much work to down low and inside the three point line to get there.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 12, 2018 21:11:05 GMT -5
More importantly, sticking Govan on the three point line does little for his development to get to far NBA. He has too much work to down low and inside the three point line to get there. This is absolutely not true. He will never be an effective post guy in the NBA and those are dinosaurs at this point anyways so why would he want to. His path is shooting 3's and if he can defend the rim (not sure he can) then he will at least have a shot. He needs to become a much better passer as well. In case you were wondering check out what Thomas Bryant has turned into. They were very similar college players.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jan 12, 2018 21:38:45 GMT -5
More importantly, sticking Govan on the three point line does little for his development to get to far NBA. He has too much work to down low and inside the three point line to get there. This is absolutely not true. He will never be an effective post guy in the NBA and those are dinosaurs at this point anyways so why would he want to. His path is shooting 3's and if he can defend the rim (not sure he can) then he will at least have a shot. He needs to become a much better passer as well. In case you were wondering check out what Thomas Bryant has turned into. They were very similar college players. He'll never be quick enough, mobile enough, or agile enough to play outside the perimeter consistently. He is not a pure shooter. He is a good three point shooter but not anywhere near NBA quality, even for a big man. His percentage is high because he's relatively selective about his shots. If shooting is his only way in, he has no shot.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 12, 2018 21:41:16 GMT -5
Zactly. 2nd in the conference is assists. You guys are acting like all these assists are coming from drive and dish. Ours assists come from dumping the ball down to Jessie and Marcus and in transition. We also get some when we pass the ball along the perimeter and guys take jump shots. In conference games we are 8th in assists, last in turnovers and last in FG %. We aren't getting easy shots from drive and dish or that wouldn't be the case. Stop using our season stats to try to prove your point. We played the worst OOC EVER. Of course our stats from those are going to be greatly inflated. We're 1st in assist percentage and FTA/FGA. That's in conference play so not inflated. We're supposed to be getting easy baskets, threes, and free throws. That's the whole point of the offense. We've shot an astonishing 140 free throws. That's first in the league and remember we're not getting fouled because we're ahead in games at the end to inflate that number. Jahvon Blair has the same FT numbers as Kelan Martin if you can believe that. Hes not doing that purely 1-on-1 (clearly). So yes we do actually pass and finish or get fouled. No we don't get gross stat assists for free throws but we do get points. It's actually probably our most effective way to score since nobody can hit a jump shot.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 12, 2018 23:01:52 GMT -5
This is absolutely not true. He will never be an effective post guy in the NBA and those are dinosaurs at this point anyways so why would he want to. His path is shooting 3's and if he can defend the rim (not sure he can) then he will at least have a shot. He needs to become a much better passer as well. In case you were wondering check out what Thomas Bryant has turned into. They were very similar college players. He'll never be quick enough, mobile enough, or agile enough to play outside the perimeter consistently. He is not a pure shooter. He is a good three point shooter but not anywhere near NBA quality, even for a big man. His percentage is high because he's relatively selective about his shots. If shooting is his only way in, he has no shot. Do you agree that Thomas Bryant as a college player and Jessie are very similar? By the way I don't think he has much of a shot but I didn't think Bryant did either until he transformed himself. Now he's getting some call ups and will at least have some sort of NBA career which he wouldn't have had strictly as a low post player.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 12, 2018 23:09:14 GMT -5
Ah well, analytics God. Please breakdown Jessie Govan's shooting percentage by place on the court. Then please breakdown how he gets that shot (pass, dribble, coming off a screen) and then we can continue this conversation. More importantly, sticking Govan on the three point line does little for his development to get to far NBA. He has too much work to down low and inside the three point line to get there. Jesse Govan’s post play and play down low is not close to NBA level at this point. Since we started he Big East, Jesse has found ways to score but he hasn’t been dominant down low, as he was against the cupcakes. We will see how he does against Delgado. Govan has been solid but not high level or exceptional in Big East play. It’s only 5 games but he’s struggled against better opponents that more effectively double team him. From two, he’s only shooting 46.4% and he’s only taken 7 threes in 5 games, making one. If anything indicates Govan has a lot of work to do before he is NBA ready, it’s that. (As a comparison in his senior year, Josh Smith shot 63.6% from two in Big East play. In his sophomore year, Monroe shot 55.9% from two. Both much higher than Govan.) The NBA does not value 8-12 foot jump shots anymore because they are less effective than layups/dunks and not as valuable as threes. In that sense, Jesse Govan (and really any NBA prospect) can greatly enhance his value by shooting threes. His most likely landing spot in the NBA would be more as a stretch 4 than a 5. Again, to reiterate nobody is saying to let him take most of his shots from three. But I think if he took 3-4 (maybe more if warranted) it would greatly help the team.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 12, 2018 23:43:49 GMT -5
I will just add if Jessie all of a sudden became twice as good as a post player he still would not be as good a post player as Jahlil Okafor. When you consider his body type and athleticism that is his ceiling as a post player. We see how much the NBA values Okafor.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jan 13, 2018 0:07:30 GMT -5
Ah well, analytics God. Please breakdown Jessie Govan's shooting percentage by place on the court. Then please breakdown how he gets that shot (pass, dribble, coming off a screen) and then we can continue this conversation. More importantly, sticking Govan on the three point line does little for his development to get to far NBA. He has too much work to down low and inside the three point line to get there. Jesse Govan’s post play and play down low is not close to NBA level at this point. Since we started he Big East, Jesse has found ways to score but he hasn’t been dominant down low, as he was against the cupcakes. We will see how he does against Delgado. Govan has been solid but not high level or exceptional in Big East play. It’s only 5 games but he’s struggled against better opponents that more effectively double team him. From two, he’s only shooting 46.4% and he’s only taken 7 threes in 5 games, making one. If anything indicates Govan has a lot of work to do before he is NBA ready, it’s that. (As a comparison in his senior year, Josh Smith shot 63.6% from two in Big East play. In his sophomore year, Monroe shot 55.9% from two. Both much higher than Govan.) The NBA does not value 8-12 foot jump shots anymore because they are less effective than layups/dunks and not as valuable as threes. In that sense, Jesse Govan (and really any NBA prospect) can greatly enhance his value by shooting threes. His most likely landing spot in the NBA would be more as a stretch 4 than a 5. Again, to reiterate nobody is saying to let him take most of his shots from three. But I think if he took 3-4 (maybe more if warranted) it would greatly help the team. Fine but he's also never going to be athletic enough to be a perimeter player in the NBA not does he have a good enough shot to make the league based on that. 3 threes a game is fine for me from Jesse. It's when people start advocating for 6-8 where I have issues.
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