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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 21, 2018 11:02:22 GMT -5
Hoyasaxa2003 mentioned that you need stability to succeed but Seton Hall has been to 3 straight tourney's, Butler 4 and PC & Xavier have been to 5 straight despite kids transferring.. You make a fair point. Maybe it's not stability as much as stability among the players who matter. Not all transfers are created equal - in the sense that if you maintain a core of solid players but others transfer, it's less harmful than a St. John's situation where there seems to be yearly turnover. While it's true Willard has 3 tournaments in a row, that run was basically on the backs of his class that entered in 2014-2015 and graduated this year. Specifically, I am talking about Isaiah Whitehead, Carrington, Desi Rodriguez, and Angel Delago. While Whitehead left in 2016 (along with Gibbs, also part of that class), Carrington, Rodriguez, and Delgado were really the core of the teams that made the tournament three consecutive years (and to a lesser extent, Myles Powell over the last two seasons). So while the Seton Hall roster saw a lot of turnover in that period, there were, at all times, 3-4 good guys who remained on the roster, particularly Carrington, Rodriguez, and Delgado. That's a big contrast to St. John's where you seem to have significant turnover every 1-2 years. I actually question whether Willard can put together tournament teams going forward, and whether he just hit lightning in a bottle with the Delgado/Rodriguez group. Willard struggled for 5 years before that class came in, and did pretty poorly during that class' freshman season too. Going into 2015-2016, with one more losing season, there's a very good chance Willard would have been fired. I am not trying to take away from Willard's good work the last three seasons, I just wonder if he's that good a coach or if it's somewhat of a fluke driven by one very good recruiting class that turned out well. For the sake of the conference, I hope he can overcome the loss of talent he faces now.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 12:21:40 GMT -5
Hoyasaxa2003 mentioned that you need stability to succeed but Seton Hall has been to 3 straight tourney's, Butler 4 and PC & Xavier have been to 5 straight despite kids transferring.. You make a fair point. Maybe it's not stability as much as stability among the players who matter. Not all transfers are created equal - in the sense that if you maintain a core of solid players but others transfer, it's less harmful than a St. John's situation where there seems to be yearly turnover. While it's true Willard has 3 tournaments in a row, that run was basically on the backs of his class that entered in 2014-2015 and graduated this year. Specifically, I am talking about Isaiah Whitehead, Carrington, Desi Rodriguez, and Angel Delago. While Whitehead left in 2016 (along with Gibbs, also part of that class), Carrington, Rodriguez, and Delgado were really the core of the teams that made the tournament three consecutive years (and to a lesser extent, Myles Powell over the last two seasons). So while the Seton Hall roster saw a lot of turnover in that period, there were, at all times, 3-4 good guys who remained on the roster, particularly Carrington, Rodriguez, and Delgado. That's a big contrast to St. John's where you seem to have significant turnover every 1-2 years. I actually question whether Willard can put together tournament teams going forward, and whether he just hit lightning in a bottle with the Delgado/Rodriguez group. Willard struggled for 5 years before that class came in, and did pretty poorly during that class' freshman season too. Going into 2015-2016, with one more losing season, there's a very good chance Willard would have been fired. I am not trying to take away from Willard's good work the last three seasons, I just wonder if he's that good a coach or if it's somewhat of a fluke driven by one very good recruiting class that turned out well. For the sake of the conference, I hope he can overcome the loss of talent he faces now. In the above comment you've made a stronger case for giving a coach more time than less imo... St Johns has been to the tourney twice in 15 years, they need stability at the HC position in order for that to change. When you take over a program in as bad a shape as St Johns was when Mullin was hired nobody wants to go there. You have to be creative, take some risks, and not all of those are going to pan out. Look at what the roster was the day he was hired vs now and they look to be in better shape. A freshman year Frederic Mussolini was their best player a couple years back, that's how bad they were.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 21, 2018 12:58:53 GMT -5
St Johns has been to the tourney twice in 15 years, they need stability at the HC position in order for that to change. When you take over a program in as bad a shape as St Johns was when Mullin was hired nobody wants to go there. You have to be creative, take some risks, and not all of those are going to pan out. Look at what the roster was the day he was hired vs now and they look to be in better shape. How many years is enough? Does Dave Leitao need three more years after he's 9-45 in the Big East over his last three? No one outside of Jean Ponsetto's office actually believes that Wintrust Arena is turning that program around. In three seasons, Leitao is 29-65 overall, Mullin 38-60. If both are sitting in the Wednesday night game next year, it bears asking not when they can legitimately turn things around, but if.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 21, 2018 13:17:44 GMT -5
In the above comment you've made a stronger case for giving a coach more time than less imo... St Johns has been to the tourney twice in 15 years, they need stability at the HC position in order for that to change. When you take over a program in as bad a shape as St Johns was when Mullin was hired nobody wants to go there. You have to be creative, take some risks, and not all of those are going to pan out. Look at what the roster was the day he was hired vs now and they look to be in better shape. A freshman year Frederic Mussolini was their best player a couple years back, that's how bad they were. I do believe in giving coaches time, and I don't think it would make sense to fire Mullin now. Generally, I think a new coach needs at 4-5 years to get a sense of what they are going to do, unless they are particularly bad and/or run the program in such a poor fashion that they need to go more quickly. This will be Mullin's 4th year. So he's getting pretty close to the point where he needs to perform. To me, the fact that their roster has often been in significant flux is a major problem, and now that's attributable to Mullin. That said, he was dealt an absolutely terrible situation by Lavin (way worse than what Ewing stepped into), so I can see an argument for giving him a 5th year regardless of this year's result, too. What Willard did is exceedingly rare. It's very uncommon for a coach to fail to hit .500 in conference for 6 consecutive seasons and then go to the NCAA tournament three consecutive years. As a result, Willard certainly deserves plenty of time to show he can do it again, even if this season is a bit rough. I definitely think proven coaches (i.e., coaches who can get teams to the NCAA tournament with some consistency) deserve time to prove themselves before they get fired.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 14:06:18 GMT -5
St Johns has been to the tourney twice in 15 years, they need stability at the HC position in order for that to change. When you take over a program in as bad a shape as St Johns was when Mullin was hired nobody wants to go there. You have to be creative, take some risks, and not all of those are going to pan out. Look at what the roster was the day he was hired vs now and they look to be in better shape. How many years is enough? Does Dave Leitao need three more years after he's 9-45 in the Big East over his last three? No one outside of Jean Ponsetto's office actually believes that Wintrust Arena is turning that program around. In three seasons, Leitao is 29-65 overall, Mullin 38-60. If both are sitting in the Wednesday night game next year, it bears asking not when they can legitimately turn things around, but if. This comment is a reminder of how bogus the "It's his first year, everyone will give him a pass" hot takes surrounding last year's schedule were. There's no such thing as "a pass" in major college sports. I think based on what they inherited 5 years is a good time to evaluate a hc, and you have to examine where the program was when he started vs now. Sometimes it takes a couple years just to stop the bleeding and recruiting is based on building and maintaining relationships.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on May 21, 2018 14:18:37 GMT -5
You need at least 5-6 years for any decent evaluation, and more like 8-10 years for an accurate one. Mullin and Leitao each need and deserve a lot more time.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 21, 2018 16:13:59 GMT -5
I think a lot this really depends on progress too. For example, if you get 4-5 years, and you show improvement most years, etc., then I think that says a lot (even if you aren't quite where you are). If you're like Oliver Purnell, and you basically show no improvement at all, over 4-5 years, then I think it's fair to fire somebody.
I do admire loyalty, but 8-10 years - when there's absolutely no improvement whatsoever - is a really long leash.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 18:29:01 GMT -5
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on May 21, 2018 19:21:47 GMT -5
Chris Mullin > Steve Lavin
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 21, 2018 22:26:51 GMT -5
Chris Mullin > Steve Lavin At basketball. At coaching. Not sure I agree. Certainly hasn't shown that to date. Lavin was 92-72 at St. John's( 81-55 if you exclude the games coached by Mike Dunlap) 2 NCAA's including the year he was fired and 2 NITs. Only year they didn't make post season was the year he was out 46-44 in conference (40-32 without the dunlap year) Mullin to date is 38-60 (12-42) Lavin definitely walked into a much sweeter situation than Mullin, but that was the administration's fault for letting Laving coach and try to recruit without a contract extension.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on May 22, 2018 8:52:11 GMT -5
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 22, 2018 9:40:17 GMT -5
Chris Mullin > Steve Lavin At basketball. At coaching. Not sure I agree. Certainly hasn't shown that to date. Lavin was 92-72 at St. John's( 81-55 if you exclude the games coached by Mike Dunlap) 2 NCAA's including the year he was fired and 2 NITs. Only year they didn't make post season was the year he was out 46-44 in conference (40-32 without the dunlap year) Mullin to date is 38-60 (12-42) Lavin definitely walked into a much sweeter situation than Mullin, but that was the administration's fault for letting Laving coach and try to recruit without a contract extension. Lavin was also a better recruiter overall (at least until the end of his tenure, when he wasn't). So while Lavin may have had some of the same troubles as Mullin (i.e., retaining kids he recruited and maintaining eligibility, etc.), his overall pool of talent was fairly strong, and ultimately, talent is going to get you wins, even if the coaching staff isn't operating at optimal levels. Mullin has recruited some good talent, like Ponds, but it seems like him and his staff have trouble putting anything together. I just remember his first season being at a St. John's game at MSG (against our Hoyas), and I was right behind the St. John's bench. During timeouts and in huddles, Mullin was often not even participating and stood to the side. I realize that the assistants may have been more equipped to handle these situations anyway (and oftentimes what coaches say in huddles is kind of dumb anyway, at least when they are recorded), it just came across as lack of interest. To be fair, in the years since, I've noticed that less of Mullin and he's seemed more engaged, though.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 9:46:35 GMT -5
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on May 22, 2018 9:57:29 GMT -5
If Weems does commit to DePaul as many expect, It will be a great get. Fair or not, keeping him and getting him on campus next June will become the challenge....
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 22, 2018 13:03:46 GMT -5
Who's Coming
JAMES AKINJO, Georgetown: Previously a UConn pledge, Akinjo flipped to Patrick Ewing and the Hoyas after Kevin Ollie’s ouster. He gives Georgetown the gem of a solid four-man recruiting class
Take this fwiw, the guy picks Howard to be the player of the year but has Marquette 8th in the power rankings..
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on May 22, 2018 13:23:34 GMT -5
Who's Coming
JAMES AKINJO, Georgetown: Previously a UConn pledge, Akinjo flipped to Patrick Ewing and the Hoyas after Kevin Ollie’s ouster. He gives Georgetown the gem of a solid four-man recruiting classTake this fwiw, the guy picks Howard to be the player of the year but has Marquette 8th in the power rankings.. Yeah...You can tell this writer doesn't really have a strong knowledge of the BIG EAST Conference. His power rankings are all over the place and he hasn't really taken roster make-up into much consideration...
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on May 22, 2018 16:02:14 GMT -5
Weems to Depaul is great for Depaul and hence the Big East.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 16:23:12 GMT -5
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on May 22, 2018 17:47:29 GMT -5
The postseason tournament games were played with an extended 3-point line of 22 feet, 1¾ inches, which is the distance used by the International Basketball Federation. Currently, the 3-point line distance in NCAA games is 20 feet, 9 inches.
Teams in the 2018 NIT averaged 21.58 3-point shots in the 2018 NIT compared with 21.27 3-point attempts per game during the regular season.
Teams in the 2018 NIT shot 34.6 percent from 3-point range compared with 36.38 percent from 3-point range during the 2017-18 regular season.
Almost a 2% drop in 3pt shooting percentage from one season to the next, I doubt it would hold up for a full season..
I still like to see the line moved back, it'll help to open the floor even more..
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on May 22, 2018 17:59:07 GMT -5
Agreed. I would definitely move the line back to the International Basketball Federation line or something similar. It might also help right the balance that has gone a little too far in the direction of threes.
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