prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,297
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Post by prhoya on Apr 30, 2019 6:57:05 GMT -5
Is this the goal of the program at this point when bringing in a 5th year transfer? If so I'd rather have Grayson Carter. People keep saying Carter is a tweener. 15 years ago that was an issue. Now in the age of multi skilled positionless basketball being a tweener can be. and is used as an advantage. I also worry about the trade off of Allen taking important minutes from somebody else. Obviously Coach Ewing and the staff have a plan and I trust them, so we will see how Allen will be used and his fit... Allen is coming in to help with the 1 and some 2, bring experience, stability and balance, and play more aggressively than the options we have. That means, create more, shoot more, and play better defense than what is there to backup Akinjo. I think it’s a great idea, plus he doesn’t take up another scholarship from the next class. I don’t like losing Carter, but he was facing a logjam and it’s understandable why he would leave.
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smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,297
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Post by smokeyjack on Apr 30, 2019 8:09:53 GMT -5
Is this the goal of the program at this point when bringing in a 5th year transfer? If so I'd rather have Grayson Carter. People keep saying Carter is a tweener. 15 years ago that was an issue. Now in the age of multi skilled positionless basketball being a tweener can be. and is used as an advantage. I also worry about the trade off of Allen taking important minutes from somebody else. Obviously Coach Ewing and the staff have a plan and I trust them, so we will see how Allen will be used and his fit... Allen is coming in to help with the 1 and some 2, bring experience, stability and balance, and play more aggressively than the options we have. That means, create more, shoot more, and play better defense than what is there to backup Akinjo. I think it’s a great idea, plus he doesn’t take up another scholarship from the next class. I don’t like losing Carter, but he was facing a logjam and it’s understandable why he would leave. Correct. Allen addresses a glaring deficiency from last year and allows us to pursue high level ‘20 PG prospects. That was a great move by staff. Why are we bemoaning Carter’s departure? Bottom line is he was a huge unknown offensively. And defensively, he was noticeably atrocious on the worst defensive team in the program’s history - frankly that was hard to do. If you want to critique Pat for playing Trey over Carter, fair enough. But Allen was a great pickup by anyone’s standards. If they took a recruit over Carter, it was Gardner. Maybe they liked Gardner’s upside more (as do I). Maybe they didn’t see Carter as physical enough to play 4 or 5 (nor did I). Either way, staff saw him every day and made the decision to let him go. Seems extremely cut and dry.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,816
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Post by hoyazeke on Apr 30, 2019 8:44:16 GMT -5
I don't see this as a Carter or Allen decision but more of a Carter or Gardner decision. Not saying Ewing pushed Grayson out....I don't know why people are calling Grayson a tweener as if its such a problem in basketball today. Player A: 6'9 220 Player B: 6'8 220 One is Carter and one is Marcus Morris.... As far as Allen, I don't care if he only shoots 10-15 3s next year...I want him to make it possible for Akinjo to not have to deal with Powell or Howard. If Allen can run the O and play solid D then it was worth the scholly...
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Apr 30, 2019 9:46:14 GMT -5
I guess one of the big questions facing this team is whether bigs (Yurt, Q, Tim, or Wilson) can give us anything at the wing and under what circumstances. In terms of what?
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Apr 30, 2019 9:51:08 GMT -5
This is not directed only at you Sir Saxa but I'm tired of people keep quoting the %40 from 3FG that Allen shot last year. This is where numbers lie. He only made 26 3FGM last season and 54 total in his three years of college basketball action. In 18 conference games, Allen made a whopping 10 3FGM in 31 attempts (31% 3FG%). He is in n NO WAY a Perimeter shooter. He also doesn't get to the FT line (58 total in each of the last 2 seasons) and is average from there at best (72% last season). The truth is Allen is not a shooter or much of a scorer. He's a table setter and capable defender. Nothing more, nothing less... Fair enough 4Ever....and thank you for your comments and perspective. I never suggested Allen would be a heavy shooter. He won't be coming in off the bench to shoot threes. If he is a solid ball handler, passer, team leader AND he can play defense well, he will be an important addition to the team. Very important. Nonetheless, compare his numbers to Malinowski, who was a designated 3 pt shooter. Greg shot 36/93 for 38.7% last year -- in 15 mpg Terrell Allen shot 26/64, 40.6%, in 30 mpg Greg had 2.0 APG, Terrell 4.3 APG If I gave you the impression I was expecting TA to come in, start firing away and pile up the 3s next year, that was not my intention. I am hoping he can be a "keep them honest" kid on the perimeter. IF we have other primary scorers on the floor with him, teams might not see him as much of a threat to score - and be more worried about his passing. If they pull back and leave him some room - one might expect him to shoot threes at a decent clip - if last year is an indication. I am hoping for a high percentage, rather than high volume. I think it's ok to include him as ONE OF the kids who might contribute 3s. Patrick knows we need 3 point shooters. Potentially, they include: Yurt Pickett Akinjo Mac Alexander even LeBlanc.. if he starts to trust his shot more, and maybe gets some plays called his way. and yes, Allen, while not a primary shooter off the bench, could still have an impact. The team will have to shoot well, and have multiple deep threats. Is this the goal of the program at this point when bringing in a 5th year transfer? If so I'd rather have Grayson Carter. People keep saying Carter is a tweener. 15 years ago that was an issue. Now in the age of multi skilled positionless basketball being a tweener can be. and is used as an advantage. I also worry about the trade off of Allen taking important minutes from somebody else. Obviously Coach Ewing and the staff have a plan and I trust them, so we will see how Allen will be used and his fit...[/quote] That’s not the goal and I think you know that. Also, Carter wasn’t skilled enough to earn minutes and it’s not like he has great tools/skills/athleticism. He’s tall, and he shoots jumpers because that’s his only offensive game. Not trying to be hard on the kid but he showed less talent relative to his ranking/pedigree of any Hoya in the last several years. Allen is going to there to provide stability and actually give us a backup PG for the first time in years. Jagan is not a poing guard and should never play the one, I’m sorry. Also, Allen will teach our backcourt how to play defense. That is invaluable. That is primarily why he was brought in. Also, what does Allen have to do with Carter?
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Apr 30, 2019 9:55:37 GMT -5
I don't see this as a Carter or Allen decision but more of a Carter or Gardner decision. Not saying Ewing pushed Grayson out....I don't know why people are calling Grayson a tweener as if its such a problem in basketball today. Player A: 6'9 220 Player B: 6'8 220 One is Carter and one is Marcus Morris.... As far as Allen, I don't care if he only shoots 10-15 3s next year...I want him to make it possible for Akinjo to not have to deal with Powell or Howard. If Allen can run the O and play solid D then it was worth the scholly... Skill set matters. Height and weight tell you very little about a player’s actual ability.
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Post by trillesthoya on Apr 30, 2019 9:59:08 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair to be categorizing Allen as having taken Carter's job. The minutes Carter would have played this year and next were taken by Gardner considering they play the same spot. Wasn't a role for him anymore, at least for a while.
And you guys are right he's not a fantastic shooter, I also intended that in a "keep em honest" sense and not in a volume sense.
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smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,297
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Post by smokeyjack on Apr 30, 2019 10:02:29 GMT -5
I don't see this as a Carter or Allen decision but more of a Carter or Gardner decision. Not saying Ewing pushed Grayson out....I don't know why people are calling Grayson a tweener as if its such a problem in basketball today. Player A: 6'9 220 Player B: 6'8 220 One is Carter and one is Marcus Morris.... As far as Allen, I don't care if he only shoots 10-15 3s next year...I want him to make it possible for Akinjo to not have to deal with Powell or Howard. If Allen can run the O and play solid D then it was worth the scholly... Skill set matters. Height and weight tell you very little about a player’s actual ability. I know right. The kid knocked down a few 3s last season, and all of a sudden he's Marcus Morris? If he was anything more than a pure finesse big, he would have played last season because we were desperate for bigs who could board and bang. As for needing "anything on the wings from our bigs," we DON'T. That's why Pat went out and recruited Alexander and Gardner, a couple of wings who can rim chew, play defense and shoot a little. This won't be a great shooting team, but it will be an exponentially more athletic and exponentially better defensive team than the one we put on the floor last season. Scoring wasn't our problem last season. We led the Big East in scoring. Our problem was defense. Four of the five worst defensive players on a dreadful defensive team are gone now (and one was absolutely Carter). Kaleb is the only departing player who played a lick of defense. Carter's "skillset" was absolutely part of the problem. Period.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 30, 2019 10:19:01 GMT -5
Is this the goal of the program at this point when bringing in a 5th year transfer? If so I'd rather have Grayson Carter. People keep saying Carter is a tweener. 15 years ago that was an issue. Now in the age of multi skilled positionless basketball being a tweener can be. and is used as an advantage. I also worry about the trade off of Allen taking important minutes from somebody else. Obviously Coach Ewing and the staff have a plan and I trust them, so we will see how Allen will be used and his fit... I see where you're coming from, but in this particular instance, I think Carter leaving has less to do with Allen than the pileup of big guys who likely would be ahead of him. You know Yurtseven will be ahead of him, and likely Wahab, both of whom are probably better than Mourning, who got playing time over Carter. It's highly unlikely Carter would have seen many minutes this season regardless. I definitely don't think the "tweener" thing was the problem, I think it's more that he wasn't really performing strongly. Obviously, we have very little to go on, but Ewing saw him everyday in practice, and he still recruited the other guys, so that tells you something. I am not worried about Allen taking minutes from anybody. It would be more of a concern if we had an incoming freshman guard who needed time, but it's hard to see Allen stunting anybody's growth, plus it gives us more depth in the event of injury, etc. to one of the guards.
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Hoyas4Ever
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
Posts: 5,448
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Apr 30, 2019 10:23:16 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair to be categorizing Allen as having taken Carter's job. The minutes Carter would have played this year and next were taken by Gardner considering they play the same spot. Wasn't a role for him anymore, at least for a while. And you guys are right he's not a fantastic shooter, I also intended that in a "keep em honest" sense and not in a volume sense. You obviously haven't seen Gardner play whatsoever if you think Carter and him play the same position. Gardner is a true wing while Carter is a stretch 4 & a small ball 5. There size (Gardner is 6'6" & Carter is 6'9"), skill sets and style of play couldn't be anymore different...
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Post by trillesthoya on Apr 30, 2019 10:25:14 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair to be categorizing Allen as having taken Carter's job. The minutes Carter would have played this year and next were taken by Gardner considering they play the same spot. Wasn't a role for him anymore, at least for a while. And you guys are right he's not a fantastic shooter, I also intended that in a "keep em honest" sense and not in a volume sense. You obviously haven't seen Gardner play whatsoever if you think Carter and him play the same position. Gardner is a true wing while Carter is a stretch 4 & a small ball 5. There size (Gardner is 6'6" & Carter is 6'9"), skill sets and style of play couldn't be anymore different... The backup four minutes that would've been given to Carter were given to Gardner. Obviously they play very different, and I never argued that their styles were any way similar. Carter wasn't getting a second at the 5 anytime soon with Yurt and Wahab in the mix.
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Hoyas4Ever
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
Posts: 5,448
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Apr 30, 2019 10:39:10 GMT -5
You obviously haven't seen Gardner play whatsoever if you think Carter and him play the same position. Gardner is a true wing while Carter is a stretch 4 & a small ball 5. There size (Gardner is 6'6" & Carter is 6'9"), skill sets and style of play couldn't be anymore different... The backup four minutes that would've been given to Carter were given to Gardner. Obviously they play very different, and I never argued that their styles were any way similar. Carter wasn't getting a second at the 5 anytime soon with Yurt and Wahab in the mix. You continue to demonstrate to me that you have no idea of roster construction, skill sets, style of play and have never truly watched Gardner or Carter play....
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Post by trillesthoya on Apr 30, 2019 10:43:49 GMT -5
The backup four minutes that would've been given to Carter were given to Gardner. Obviously they play very different, and I never argued that their styles were any way similar. Carter wasn't getting a second at the 5 anytime soon with Yurt and Wahab in the mix. You continue to demonstrate to me that you have no idea of roster construction, skill sets, style of play and have never truly watched Gardner or Carter play.... Ah yes the ever so mature personal attack rather than responding constructively to a point. No ones attacking you dude, no need to get so condescending.
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Hoyas4Ever
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
Posts: 5,448
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Apr 30, 2019 10:51:36 GMT -5
You continue to demonstrate to me that you have no idea of roster construction, skill sets, style of play and have never truly watched Gardner or Carter play.... Ah yes the ever so mature personal attack rather than responding constructively to a point. No ones attacking you dude, no need to get so condescending. Calm down dude, I don't know you so how could this be a personal attack. I made my comment based on your uninformed comments. Not based on you or anything to do with you...
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Apr 30, 2019 10:51:50 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair to be categorizing Allen as having taken Carter's job. The minutes Carter would have played this year and next were taken by Gardner considering they play the same spot. Wasn't a role for him anymore, at least for a while. And you guys are right he's not a fantastic shooter, I also intended that in a "keep em honest" sense and not in a volume sense. You obviously haven't seen Gardner play whatsoever if you think Carter and him play the same position. Gardner is a true wing while Carter is a stretch 4 & a small ball 5. There size (Gardner is 6'6" & Carter is 6'9"), skill sets and style of play couldn't be anymore different... 22/23 year old Alexander > 19 year old Carter as a banger, regardless of height. Leblanc is 6’7” and he could play the 4. How about we wait to actually see Alexander in a Hoya uniform. Again, height is immaterial to his ability to bang. He wasn’t strong. Also, all the post really said was that Alexander is the closest trade off of the last three recent commits we got.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Apr 30, 2019 10:54:10 GMT -5
The backup four minutes that would've been given to Carter were given to Gardner. Obviously they play very different, and I never argued that their styles were any way similar. Carter wasn't getting a second at the 5 anytime soon with Yurt and Wahab in the mix. You continue to demonstrate to me that you have no idea of roster construction, skill sets, style of play and have never truly watched Gardner or Carter play.... You do realize that Kaleb Johnson was our best banger in the post this year right? Even moreso than Govan. It isn’t until you watched them in person did you realize Kaleb was the only banger on our roster......wait, I must have that wrong - because he’s not 6’9”!!!!!!! My bad, continue with your completely accurate take.
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Post by trillesthoya on Apr 30, 2019 10:54:50 GMT -5
Ah yes the ever so mature personal attack rather than responding constructively to a point. No ones attacking you dude, no need to get so condescending. Calm down dude, I don't know you so how could this be a personal attack. I made my comment based on your uninformed comments. Not based on you or anything to do with you... Right, rather than actually explain how my take that Carter's minutes will be taken by the addition of Gardner is wrong, you're just randomly asserting I don't know what I'm talking about or never watched either of them play. I've watched plenty of Spire games this season, I know what we're getting in Gardner, and while I do recognize that team's don't divy minutes based on 1 2 3 4 5 in the way they used to, it's just an easy albeit imperfect to conceptualize players functions on a team.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Apr 30, 2019 10:55:13 GMT -5
Ah yes the ever so mature personal attack rather than responding constructively to a point. No ones attacking you dude, no need to get so condescending. Calm down dude, I don't know you so how could this be a personal attack. I made my comment based on your uninformed comments. Not based on you or anything to do with you... Dictionary.com Search: personal attack, personal Also, telling people to calm down after someone who was calm just asked you to calm down is a clown move, bro.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Apr 30, 2019 10:57:22 GMT -5
Calm down dude, I don't know you so how could this be a personal attack. I made my comment based on your uninformed comments. Not based on you or anything to do with you... Right, rather than actually explain how my take that Carter's minutes will be taken by the addition of Gardner is wrong, you're just randomly asserting I don't know what I'm talking about or never watched either of them play. I've watched plenty of Spire games this season, I know what we're getting in Gardner, and while I do recognize that team's don't divy minutes based on 1 2 3 4 5 in the way they used to, it's just an easy albeit imperfect to conceptualize players functions on a team. Don’t bother. He’s clearly trolling.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,816
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Post by hoyazeke on Apr 30, 2019 11:12:18 GMT -5
You obviously haven't seen Gardner play whatsoever if you think Carter and him play the same position. Gardner is a true wing while Carter is a stretch 4 & a small ball 5. There size (Gardner is 6'6" & Carter is 6'9"), skill sets and style of play couldn't be anymore different... 22/23 year old Gardner > 19 year old Carter as a banger, regardless of height. Leblanc is 6’7” and he could play the 4. How about we wait to actually see Gardner in a Hoya uniform. Again, height is immaterial to his ability to bang. He wasn’t strong. Also, all the post really said was that Gardner is the closest trade off of the last three recent commits we got. I think you are getting Gardner and Alexander mixed up. Gardner is the hs kid from Spire and Alexander is the juco from La.....the reason H4E is saying some haven't seen Carter/Alexander/Gardner because Carter plays a completely different style and position than the other 2. The only person that threatens Carter PT is Yurt7 or Josh....Gardner/Alexander(2/3), Carter(4/5)
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