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Post by FrazierFanatic on Aug 2, 2017 10:06:28 GMT -5
What message does this move send to current or potential players? That being able to be with your family and enjoy Thanksgiving at home while watching Redskins-Giants is a little bit more important then missing thanksgiving stuck in Portland playing a game nobody will be watching (competing with NFL, NBA) just to appease a couple grown men who are eating cheetos on their couch at home. So I am presuming we won't be playing in any tournaments over Thanksgiving in the future, since it would send the wrong message? |
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Aug 2, 2017 10:10:57 GMT -5
Exactly. Some posters didn't like the choice of coach, most were disappointed with process, but I haven't seen (read) one poster who wants Ewing, and the program along with him, to fail. Every decision Ewing has made has been criticized by some on this board. Here are just a few of the topics/threads that have been discussed on here criticizing Ewing/program: *Is John Thompson Jr. still running the program (making Ewing out to be a patsy)? *What Assistant Coaches he should target? *Why did he hire those Assistant Coaches? *Why is Orr recruiting and not a bench coach? *Why Did he wait so long to announce the hiring of Coaches? *The program Approach under Ewing? *2017-2018 Season under review? *The strength and conditioning program (Strength Coaches). *Why bring in a rising senior transfer from William and Mary who probably has to sit one/play one and whether he's on scholarship? *Why did he sign that prospect? Is this the best type of players Ewing can get (Blair/Dickerson)? *Ewing can't recruit because prospects are choosing other struggling programs instead of Georgetown (Waters/Carter etc.)? *David Falk close relationship with players is costing the Program recruits and the new reason why the program can't win? *The hiring of Ronny Thompson in a non recruiting role is a disaster? And my favorite thread of all time:
Who's Walking the Walk?
I purposely left out the PK80 decision because that is viable criticism. I myself don't find it to be a massive deal in Ewing's first season but I can understand how posters on here can be frustrated/disappointed. My point to this is Ewing has yet to Coach one game yet and every decision is being scrutinized/criticized feverishly without any inside knowledge to why these decisions are being made. Allow Ewing to run his program the way he sees fit and in a year or two, have at with all the criticisms you want. On the topic that no wants to see Ewing/program fail. Secretly there are some people posting on here who do. Look at some threads being discussed. "Who's Walking the Walk?". No one has the balls to say they want Ewing to fail today but if he fails to turn the program around by year 2/3 you will see them slowly all come out of hiding like cockroaches saying "I said/thought it was mistake to hire him/he wasn't qualified/we should have hired so and so.... Who's Walking the Walk was started with regard to the scenario where JTIII remained the coach. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 2, 2017 10:11:17 GMT -5
The players might have known about this since mid April before they reaffirmed their commitment to stay. Ewing has been tremendously if not brutally honest. So you're saying that you think we sat on something since mid-April and let fans buy tickets but didn't tell the organizers or fans? If ESPN or PK80 knew we'd be out, they'd announce it the next day. |
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Aug 2, 2017 10:15:02 GMT -5
Perspective is important. Is it a big mistake? No. Will people remember it at the end of the season and beyond? No. But is it a mistake? Well, yes, at least based on what we know (which may not be everything). I think that's almost indisputable. First, if you're concerned about this year's schedule and don't want it to be brutal, you can address that with the other OOC games. Two (or three) bad losses isn't going to destroy a season or the teams confidence. Second, the tourney is exempt, so two of the games are "free." We don't get to replace them unless we play in another tourney, which seems unlikely. Third, in my view, the program (and PE) get loads of free publicity on a network we aren't frequently on. And the publicity, even with blowouts, will be positive. That's the nature of the commentary generally, and particularly at an event like this, which is designed to celebrate historical programs and surely will include heavily produced promotional videos. We'd be seeing highlight after highlight of PE. Fourth, and don't laugh, we actually could win one of the tough games. Stranger things have happened. Not likely obviously, but what a huge shot in the arm that would be. Fifth, it really does put your biggest supporters in a tough spot, if they had travel plans. That's not a wildly significant concern, but it does put a pebble on the scale. I'm fully supportive of PE and wish him total success. But he's going to make mistakes. That's fine. In fact it's inevitable. This isn't a huge one, but it is a mistake. I had forgotten about the exempt nature of the tournaments. If we don't somehow hook up with another event (don't imagine we could at this late date), wouldn't two additional games be important in allowing the players to master new offensive and defensive schemes, not to mention getting more game experience for a young team? |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Aug 2, 2017 10:15:13 GMT -5
Perspective is important. Is it a big mistake? No. Will people remember it at the end of the season and beyond? No. But is it a mistake? Well, yes, at least based on what we know (which may not be everything). I think that's almost indisputable. First, if you're concerned about this year's schedule and don't want it to be brutal, you can address that with the other OOC games. Two (or three) bad losses isn't going to destroy a season or the teams confidence. Second, the tourney is exempt, so two of the games are "free." We don't get to replace them unless we play in another tourney, which seems unlikely. Third, in my view, the program (and PE) get loads of free publicity on a network we aren't frequently on. And the publicity, even with blowouts, will be positive. That's the nature of the commentary generally, and particularly at an event like this, which is designed to celebrate historical programs and surely will include heavily produced promotional videos. We'd be seeing highlight after highlight of PE. Fourth, and don't laugh, we actually could win one of the tough games. Stranger things have happened. Not likely obviously, but what a huge shot in the arm that would be. Fifth, it really does put your biggest supporters in a tough spot, if they had travel plans. That's not a wildly significant concern, but it does put a pebble on the scale. I'm fully supportive of PE and wish him total success. But he's going to make mistakes. That's fine. In fact it's inevitable. This isn't a huge one, but it is a mistake. I agree with pretty much everything here, good post. A few additional comments: - As a one-off event, is this a big deal? No. But, if it indicates a significant departure from the JT3 style of scheduling (good opponents, high RPI/SoS), I will be unhappy. I definitely think this year's OOC schedule needs to take it easy since we are rebuilding, which is why I thought losing the Kansas series was actually not a bad move. But, going forward, we cannot use the JT Jr. style of scheduling either - that's just not compatible with the modern game. - Replacing the top-level opponents with a likely 300 level opponent (i.e., cupcake) not only hurts our strength of schedule, but also the conference's. - This idea about "now we will be relaxing at home on Thanksgiving instead of being in Portland" idea is ludicrous to me. First, my understanding is that almost every year our guys are either traveling or on campus for Thanksgiving. Second, man up. You are a major athlete in a revenue producing sport. The sport requires sacrifices, and not being home for Thanksgiving is one of them. Third, what college aged kid doesn't want a free trip to a fun basketball tournament, with a lot of other top teams - and likely a lot of players they knew from AAU days, etc.? Okay, maybe some, but this strikes me as the type of thing kids want to do. - I think it's silly to make gross over generalizations. You would think Ewing had something to do with this, since he's the man in charge. Was JT Jr. involved? Who knows. If he's on the Board at Nike, it seems odd that we wouldn't play in this event. - Lastly, are we going to be terrible this year? Likely. But, you never know. And bad teams knock off good ones all the time in these sorts of tournaments. The upside of beating somebody like Michigan State is way more significant than the downside of losing to them by 30. Win a game or two like that, have a winning record in the Big East, and suddenly you're in the discussion. |
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Aug 2, 2017 10:15:15 GMT -5
Geez. Oh boy, it's going to be a long year.  These are basketball games. Entering this tournament under the circumstance we are in? Are we like a leper basketball team or something? We aren't going to be good and we have a new coach. I'm am 100% confident this tournament wasn't scheduled with the intention of not being competitive or having a first year coach at the helm, are you? Im mostly busting your chops, but how bad do you think we are going to be? Do you think we should forfeit the 2 NOVA games Let's face it - we were 5-13 in the BE last year. Im not expecting us to be good, but I'd be pretty disappointed if we were worse than that. It's not like we are an expansion team or something. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Aug 2, 2017 10:17:46 GMT -5
We aren't going to be good and we have a new coach. I'm am 100% confident this tournament wasn't scheduled with the intention of not being competitive or having a first year coach at the helm, are you? Im mostly busting your chops, but how bad do you think we are going to be? Do you think we should forfeit the 2 NOVA games Let's face it - we were 5-13 in the BE last year. Im not expecting us to be good, but I'd be pretty disappointed if we were worse than that. It's not like we are an expansion team or something. I think there is a pretty fair chance we could be worse than 5-13, but I sure hope I am wrong. |
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Post by centercourt400s on Aug 2, 2017 10:22:03 GMT -5
Pat Ewing's early scheduling and player/team managing philosophies don't conform to what some posters on a internet forum want? Fine by me.
He's a strong willed professional with a long history of success. I'm inclined to trust him at this stage.
I feel for any who made plans to attend the tournament but other than that, I'm on board with the coach.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Aug 2, 2017 10:22:05 GMT -5
Im mostly busting your chops, but how bad do you think we are going to be? Do you think we should forfeit the 2 NOVA games Let's face it - we were 5-13 in the BE last year. Im not expecting us to be good, but I'd be pretty disappointed if we were worse than that. It's not like we are an expansion team or something. I think there is a pretty fair chance we could be worse than 5-13, but I sure hope I am wrong. To be fair, you are probably right. But, i dont think we are as much of a mess as SJU was when Mullin first came. We still have some decent talent. |
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Aug 2, 2017 10:23:00 GMT -5
We aren't going to be good and we have a new coach. I'm am 100% confident this tournament wasn't scheduled with the intention of not being competitive or having a first year coach at the helm, are you? Im mostly busting your chops, but how bad do you think we are going to be? Do you think we should forfeit the 2 NOVA games Let's face it - we were 5-13 in the BE last year. Im not expecting us to be good, but I'd be pretty disappointed if we were worse than that. Well that just drives home the point in that I don't think tournament would have been scheduled knowing we had a team the quality of last year's either. While I can see why people wouldn't agree with this decision, I am surprised after last year's 2-4 start to the season and the 2016 1-3 start there isn't more understanding for why this might be a good idea. |
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Aug 2, 2017 10:28:37 GMT -5
After looking over the roster again...yeah, we might be worse than 5-13.  |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Aug 2, 2017 10:35:16 GMT -5
I had actually not been familiar with the idea of the exempt tournament. Here's my understanding how it works. If you do NOT do an exempt tournament, you can have 29 games. Given that we have 18 Big East games, that allows for 11 OOC games. If you do an exempt tournament, you can schedule 27 games PLUS the tournament (which can be 2-4 games). So that's 9 OOC games, plus 2-4 exempt tournament games. This is why the Battle for Atlantis and Maui Invitational have the "mainland" games - it allows scheduling an additional game you wouldn't otherwise get.
So, in summary, had we done the Portland tournament, we could have scheduled: 9 OOC games, plus the 3 in Portland. So, by not doing the tournament, by necessity we play one less game. Not a huge deal, but I'd rather have more games than less.
But, let's look at two scenarios:
Scenario 1 = We play in Portland - Let's say we got totally destroyed in Portland, losing 3 games. And let's say Syracuse killed us too (nooo). It seems like the rest of the schedule will be cupcakes (as it should be in that circumstance), so safe to assume we probably win all of them or most. So in that scenario, we go 8-4, let's say.
Scenario 2 - All Cupcakes + Syracuse - Let's say we play mostly cupcakes and Syracuse, losing to Syracuse. In that scenario, we are 10-1 or 9-2 if we lose to a cupcake.
Is there really a big difference between these two scenarios? I don't think so. In the latter scenario, going 10-1 or 9-2 is essentially meaningless because of the horrible opponents.
Given all that, I would always choose the tougher opponents over the second scenario (plus it helps conference RPI/SoS). One thing I will say for certain: scheduling a sub-Division 1 team for anything but a pre-season exhibition would be absolutely unacceptable.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Aug 2, 2017 10:43:50 GMT -5
The players might have known about this since mid April before they reaffirmed their commitment to stay. Ewing has been tremendously if not brutally honest. So you're saying that you think we sat on something since mid-April and let fans buy tickets but didn't tell the organizers or fans? If ESPN or PK80 knew we'd be out, they'd announce it the next day. Yes I'm saying they might have known this is a strong possibility or it was Ewing's intentions. Like I said in a previous post, we don't have a clue how long the powers that be at Georgetown have been negotiating with Nike/ESPN, possibly DePaul and others has been going on. With so many involved, these had to be very complex negotiations to get out of this tournament. Based on Reed's statement, ESPN might have been the party that made this exit from the PK80 harder to navigate and future promises probably has to be made. Ewing didn't wake up yesterday and say "you know what, I don't want to play in that tournament anymore". |
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Post by centercourt400s on Aug 2, 2017 10:48:08 GMT -5
If post-season results are your barometer of success then what does Hoya history say about scheduling cupcakes vs a tough OOC?
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Aug 2, 2017 10:49:39 GMT -5
I had actually not been familiar with the idea of the exempt tournament. Here's my understanding how it works. If you do NOT do an exempt tournament, you can have 29 games. Given that we have 18 Big East games, that allows for 11 OOC games. If you do an exempt tournament, you can schedule 27 games PLUS the tournament (which can be 2-4 games). So that's 9 OOC games, plus 2-4 exempt tournament games. This is why the Battle for Atlantis and Maui Invitational have the "mainland" games - it allows scheduling an additional game you wouldn't otherwise get. So, in summary, had we done the Portland tournament, we could have scheduled: 9 OOC games, plus the 3 in Portland. So, by not doing the tournament, by necessity we play one less game. Not a huge deal, but I'd rather have more games than less. But, let's look at two scenarios: Scenario 1 = We play in Portland - Let's say we got totally destroyed in Portland, losing 3 games. And let's say Syracuse killed us too (nooo). It seems like the rest of the schedule will be cupcakes (as it should be in that circumstance), so safe to assume we probably win all of them or most. So in that scenario, we go 8-4, let's say. Scenario 2 - All Cupcakes + Syracuse - Let's say we play mostly cupcakes and Syracuse, losing to Syracuse. In that scenario, we are 10-1 or 9-2 if we lose to a cupcake. Is there really a big difference between these two scenarios? I don't think so. In the latter scenario, going 10-1 or 9-2 is essentially meaningless because of the horrible opponents. Given all that, I would always choose the tougher opponents over the second scenario (plus it helps conference RPI/SoS). One thing I will say for certain: scheduling a sub-Division 1 team for anything but a pre-season exhibition would be absolutely unacceptable. I just disagree with most of this. First, there is a huge difference in going 10-1/9-2 from a confidence perspective than 8-4/7-5. Second, we really shouldn't be thinking of this season from an RPI/SOS perspective as I think post-season play is a bonus, nothing something we should be planning around. Third, getting hammered and losing the first 3 games of the season and one in the beginning of December puts unnecessary pressure on winning cupcake games the rest of OOC and could have adverse effects on team chemistry and development. Its easy to say you'd always choose the tougher opponents when you aren't directly impacted by the results. I also say this as someone who thinks one of III's ultimate failings was his scheduling over the last few years. |
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Aug 2, 2017 10:49:52 GMT -5
Every decision Ewing has made has been criticized by some on this board. Here are just a few of the topics/threads that have been discussed on here criticizing Ewing/program: *Is John Thompson Jr. still running the program (making Ewing out to be a patsy)? *What Assistant Coaches he should target? *Why did he hire those Assistant Coaches? *Why is Orr recruiting and not a bench coach? *Why Did he wait so long to announce the hiring of Coaches? *The program Approach under Ewing? *2017-2018 Season under review? *The strength and conditioning program (Strength Coaches). *Why bring in a rising senior transfer from William and Mary who probably has to sit one/play one and whether he's on scholarship? *Why did he sign that prospect? Is this the best type of players Ewing can get (Blair/Dickerson)? *Ewing can't recruit because prospects are choosing other struggling programs instead of Georgetown (Waters/Carter etc.)? *David Falk close relationship with players is costing the Program recruits and the new reason why the program can't win? *The hiring of Ronny Thompson in a non recruiting role is a disaster? And my favorite thread of all time:
Who's Walking the Walk?
I purposely left out the PK80 decision because that is viable criticism. I myself don't find it to be a massive deal in Ewing's first season but I can understand how posters on here can be frustrated/disappointed. My point to this is Ewing has yet to Coach one game yet and every decision is being scrutinized/criticized feverishly without any inside knowledge to why these decisions are being made. Allow Ewing to run his program the way he sees fit and in a year or two, have at with all the criticisms you want. On the topic that no wants to see Ewing/program fail. Secretly there are some people posting on here who do. Look at some threads being discussed. "Who's Walking the Walk?". No one has the balls to say they want Ewing to fail today but if he fails to turn the program around by year 2/3 you will see them slowly all come out of hiding like cockroaches saying "I said/thought it was mistake to hire him/he wasn't qualified/we should have hired so and so.... Who's Walking the Walk was started with regard to the scenario where JTIII remained the coach. And was given a new jolt of life recently under Ewing even before he has coached 1 game. If it was only about JT3 it would have stayed dormant after he was relieved of his duties as head coach. |
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Post by HometownHoya on Aug 2, 2017 10:50:44 GMT -5
I had actually not been familiar with the idea of the exempt tournament. Here's my understanding how it works. If you do NOT do an exempt tournament, you can have 29 games. Given that we have 18 Big East games, that allows for 11 OOC games. If you do an exempt tournament, you can schedule 27 games PLUS the tournament (which can be 2-4 games). So that's 9 OOC games, plus 2-4 exempt tournament games. This is why the Battle for Atlantis and Maui Invitational have the "mainland" games - it allows scheduling an additional game you wouldn't otherwise get. So, in summary, had we done the Portland tournament, we could have scheduled: 9 OOC games, plus the 3 in Portland. So, by not doing the tournament, by necessity we play one less game. Not a huge deal, but I'd rather have more games than less. But, let's look at two scenarios: Scenario 1 = We play in Portland - Let's say we got totally destroyed in Portland, losing 3 games. And let's say Syracuse killed us too (nooo). It seems like the rest of the schedule will be cupcakes (as it should be in that circumstance), so safe to assume we probably win all of them or most. So in that scenario, we go 8-4, let's say. Scenario 2 - All Cupcakes + Syracuse - Let's say we play mostly cupcakes and Syracuse, losing to Syracuse. In that scenario, we are 10-1 or 9-2 if we lose to a cupcake. Is there really a big difference between these two scenarios? I don't think so. In the latter scenario, going 10-1 or 9-2 is essentially meaningless because of the horrible opponents. Given all that, I would always choose the tougher opponents over the second scenario (plus it helps conference RPI/SoS). One thing I will say for certain: scheduling a sub-Division 1 team for anything but a pre-season exhibition would be absolutely unacceptable. This is a good way to look at it but think of the gnashing of teeth around here when after that first few weeks of OOC (when Portland would be) we were 1-3 vs a 3-0 record. Not that I am saying it's a valid reason but even if we would end the OOC with a winning record either way, spirits and morale would be much higher with the 3-0 start then the 1-3 start. Personally, I'd be fine with the 1-3 start because I'd be expecting it but damn would this place be unbearable. |
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 2, 2017 10:54:58 GMT -5
It is August.
Some want to gripe about anything.
Ronny Thompson? lol. Talk about a reach.
Its one game. One game.
People griped about the staff because they are so impatient. Ewing exhibited patience and diligence. He hires a solid staff.
People griped about the recruiting class, not fast enough, we need a staff in place. Can't land anybody. Ewing lands a solid recruiting class with barely anytime to recruit when he got hired.
Ewing decides to pull out of this game, with a new system, new staff, some new recruits and players playing in a new system. He wants to get his guys ready. You don't feed steak to a baby. Maybe Coach Ewing feels getting pasted by MSU won't do us any good. Baby steps. Ironically, Coach Izzo, known for grueling schedules, had second thoughts and apologized to his team last year for having such a grueling schedule. Thought his team didn't have enough time to practice and develop.
Now, maybe that wasn't a reason for pulling out because we don't know the full schedule. We will eventually. Maybe we will have some tougher games mixed in with some cupcakes. We don't know
Baby Steps. Patience. Trust Coach Ewing.
Seems like people want find fault with anything Coach Ewing decides. Outside of maybe the Ronny Thompson hire, Coach Ewing has done an admirable job up to this point considering the circumstances.
Go Hoyas!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 11:06:46 GMT -5
Actually, it's not. It would have been three games. MSU was just the first round matchup. |
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Aug 2, 2017 11:08:59 GMT -5
It is August. Some want to gripe about anything. Ronny Thompson? lol. Talk about a reach. Its one game. One game. People griped about the staff because they are so impatient. Ewing exhibited patience and diligence. He hires a solid staff. People griped about the recruiting class, not fast enough, we need a staff in place. Can't land anybody. Ewing lands a solid recruiting class with barely anytime to recruit when he got hired. Ewing decides to pull out of this game, with a new system, new staff, some new recruits and players playing in a new system. He wants to get his guys ready. You don't feed steak to a baby. Maybe coaching Ewing feels getting pasted by MSU won't do us any good. Baby steps. Ironically, Coach Izzo, known for grueling schedules, had second thoughts and apologized to his team last year for having such a grueling schedule. Thought his team didn't have enough time to practice and develop. Now, maybe that wasn't a reason for pulling out because we don't know the full schedule. We will eventually. Maybe we will have some tougher games mixed in with some cupcakes. We don't know Baby Steps. Patience. Trust Coach Ewing. Seems like people want find fault with anything Coach Ewing decides. Outside of maybe the Ronny Thompson hire, Coach Ewing has done an admirable job up to this point considering the circumstances. Go Hoyas! Great Post the_way! The Ronny Thompson hire doesn't bother me, but I agree wholeheartedly with everything else you stated. GO HOYAS! |
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These are basketball games. Entering this tournament under the circumstance we are in? Are we like a leper basketball team or something? 
