GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Dec 30, 2017 12:32:26 GMT -5
You have to admit, at this stage Seton Hall was his best offer.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Dec 30, 2017 12:32:32 GMT -5
How about C) markets are imperfect and rankings don't always peg kids correctly outside of the top 30 or so - especially when they are from areas that don't produce a lot of D1 players? A lot of people seem married to a ranking and AAU stats that I don't think are predictive whatsoever. He literally scored 44 today, on what look like good percentages, on the #4 HS team in Kentucky. He probably sets the scoring record tomorrow for that tournament that is held by a former NBA player. No one is alleging that he's going to be first team BE, I don't know what the resistance here is to the idea that he could be a quality player that gets minutes, and that he's better than some nobody from Canada and a struggling SF. I took care of C in the thread below. Is there a chance MAC could be good sure. He is sure coming into a spot where he will get a chance compared to most of the other guys around his ranking. But there is a better chance he's just average. He's on an AAU team and comes off the bench behind a top 100 and top 150 guy so hes at least easy to rank compared to those guys. So unless the rankings are all off for what was one of the best AAU teams then the chances are it's A or B. Also if you think his ranking is way off you must think that every big college coach has misjudged his ability as well. We were his best offer and he was committed to Rutgers before us. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. hoyatalk2.proboards.com/thread/30579/recruiting-rankings-pretty-good-indicatorsI believe he was offered by Seton Hall and Providence, although that doesn't really affect your points to a great extent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 12:35:54 GMT -5
Just a couple of points. Let me first mention the majority of Loaded's games at the Adidas championships in July are online and you can watch all of them.
1) He started more games than he came off the bench. They usually started a 3 guard lineup. In the beginning (Spring session) he did not start but as Boyd struggled Mac replaced him.
2) AAU is about showcasing kids so starting isn't necessarily that big of a deal. While not the norm, some coaches will start a different 5 each game in an effort to get their kids seen.
3) He didn't play with the ball in his hands that much. There were games/stretches when he did run the show but it wasn't necessarily his primary role. This is true
4) Loaded did a good job of playing together and sharing the ball so no one player seemed to dominate the scoring for them. Their leading scorer averaged under 13 a game and they had 8 players averaging between (rounding up) 6-13 ppg. Expecting anyone to put up huge numbers for them isn't really realistic. To many guys that are capable and it's hard to go off when you don't get consistent touches. That effects rankings also, I would expect a few of those kids to outplay theirs..
5) When he did play on ball he played more like a game manager than a ball dominate pg, but again that could be due to the environment and talent surrounding him. It wouldn't make sense, or show any semblance of B-ball iq to play on Loaded like he does for Gate City.
By all accounts he works really hard on his game. My feeling is if you have talent, will, and work ethic that usually wins out in the end, and he has all three. If no additions are made I expect his numbers freshman season to be similar to Blair's and Pickett's. Those are normal Freshman numbers. I think both have played fine, and expect them to be much better next year. I could see Mac doing similar things.
I want to stress the fact that's a normal progression for Freshman. Struggle early. Show flashes and noticeable improvement Sophomore year. Become key pieces as upperclassmen. I think all three could play together so it's not really a competition imo.
I also think the hype around him is totally unfair to him. He seems to handle it well, and being a marked man everywhere he goes isn't bad for his development at all. The competition is weak but some of the plays and shots he makes are college ready and would work against better comp. Some of the drives and other more athletic plays may not be considering the size he would face down low. The fact that he isn't just relying on his athleticism to get over is a positive sign, and I expect him to be a good player for us eventually.
Hopefully that comes sooner than later but if it takes time, that's fine, and totally normal.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 30, 2017 12:36:35 GMT -5
You have to admit, at this stage Seton Hall was his best offer. UGGGHHH don't remind me. I try to block out how far we have fallen recently.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 30, 2017 12:58:35 GMT -5
Just a couple of points. Let me first mention the majority of Loaded's games at the Adidas championships in July or online and you can watch all of them. 1) He started more games than he came off the bench. They usually started a 3 guard lineup. In the beginning (Spring session) he did not start but as Boyd struggled Mac replaced him. 2) AAU is about showcasing kids so starting isn't necessarily that big of a deal. While not the norm, some coaches will start a different 5 each game in an effort to get their kids seen. 3) He didn't play with the ball in his hands that much. There were games/stretches when he did run the show but it wasn't necessarily his primary role. This is true 4) Loaded did a good job of playing together and sharing the ball so no one player seemed to dominate the scoring for them. Their leading scorer averaged under 13 a game and they had 8 players averaging between (rounding up) 6-13 ppg. Expecting anyone to put up huge numbers for them isn't really realistic. To many guys that are capable and it's hard to go off when you don't get consistent touches. 5) When he did play on ball he played more like a game manager than a ball dominate pg, but again that could be due to the environment and talent surrounding him. By all accounts he works really hard on his game. My feeling is if you have talent, will, and work ethic that usually wins out in the end, and he has all three. If no additions are made I expect his numbers freshman season to be similar to Blair's and Pickett's. Those are normal Freshman numbers. I think both have played fine, and expect them to be much better next year. I could see Mac doing similar things. I want to stress the fact that's a normal progression for Freshman. Struggle early. Show flashes and noticeable improvement Sophomore year. Become key pieces as upperclassmen. I think all three could play together so it's not really a competition imo. I also think the hype around him is totally unfair to him. He seems to handle it well, and being a marked man everywhere he goes isn't bad for his development at all. The competition is weak but some of the plays and shots he makes are college ready and would work against better comp. Some of the drives and other more athletic plays may not be considering the size he would face down low. The fact that he isn't just relying on his athleticism to get over is a positive sign and I expect him to be a good player in time for us. Hopefully that comes sooner than later but if it takes time, that's fine, and totally normal. I agree with all of this and I know you watch this stuff as closely as I do so you get it. Maybe the bench was the wrong word but he played less than the other two and even less than Boyd when he was on the team. Boyd is actually ranked below (although pretty close) to Mac so that gives us another data point. Mac is one of the top 5 most "covered" players and played on the best AAU team. I just don't get why everyone thinks that he has been this misjudged through the process. If any thing a player like him would be overrated based on the hype, I'm looking at you Lamelo. I hope he is good and will make a huge jump for us. I am just being realistic with my expectations though. This is what he needs to be for this team assuming Jessie comes back. If he accepts that role he will be an asset to this team. If he tries to live up to the hype then Im worried. I just really hope he can defend an opposing PG because that is what is truly needed. 5) When he did play on ball he played more like a game manager than a ball dominate pg, but again that could be due to the environment and talent surrounding him.
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geedell
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Post by geedell on Dec 30, 2017 13:10:51 GMT -5
Just a couple of points. Let me first mention the majority of Loaded's games at the Adidas championships in July are online and you can watch all of them. 1) He started more games than he came off the bench. They usually started a 3 guard lineup. In the beginning (Spring session) he did not start but as Boyd struggled Mac replaced him. 2) AAU is about showcasing kids so starting isn't necessarily that big of a deal. While not the norm, some coaches will start a different 5 each game in an effort to get their kids seen. 3) He didn't play with the ball in his hands that much. There were games/stretches when he did run the show but it wasn't necessarily his primary role. This is true 4) Loaded did a good job of playing together and sharing the ball so no one player seemed to dominate the scoring for them. Their leading scorer averaged under 13 a game and they had 8 players averaging between (rounding up) 6-13 ppg. Expecting anyone to put up huge numbers for them isn't really realistic. To many guys that are capable and it's hard to go off when you don't get consistent touches. That effects rankings also, I would expect a few of those kids to outplay theirs.. 5) When he did play on ball he played more like a game manager than a ball dominate pg, but again that could be due to the environment and talent surrounding him. It wouldn't make sense, or show any semblance of B-ball iq to play on Loaded like he does for Gate City. By all accounts he works really hard on his game. My feeling is if you have talent, will, and work ethic that usually wins out in the end, and he has all three. If no additions are made I expect his numbers freshman season to be similar to Blair's and Pickett's. Those are normal Freshman numbers. I think both have played fine, and expect them to be much better next year. I could see Mac doing similar things. I want to stress the fact that's a normal progression for Freshman. Struggle early. Show flashes and noticeable improvement Sophomore year. Become key pieces as upperclassmen. I think all three could play together so it's not really a competition imo. I also think the hype around him is totally unfair to him. He seems to handle it well, and being a marked man everywhere he goes isn't bad for his development at all. The competition is weak but some of the plays and shots he makes are college ready and would work against better comp. Some of the drives and other more athletic plays may not be considering the size he would face down low. The fact that he isn't just relying on his athleticism to get over is a positive sign, and I expect him to be a good player for us eventually. Hopefully that comes sooner than later but if it takes time, that's fine, and totally normal. This is perfect
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Post by thejerseytornado on Dec 30, 2017 13:19:07 GMT -5
hoyainla--you're making the mistake of taking an accurate average and claiming it is accurate for a specific person.
It's, honestly, the same mistake people have about the polls in 2016 (sorry to go politics). On average, the polls were accurate--in the universe of possibilities, there was a low chance (but there was a chance) Trump would win according to the polls. That's what happened. But ON AVERAGE, polls were accurate (national polls especially) but local state polls were inaccurate because of underfunding and less attention. People are arguing the same is true of Mac. On average, rankings (especially of nationally visible players) are accurate. But some specific ranks are grossly inaccurate. Look at Domingo compared to Trawick or Whittington (what could have been...). Or compare Whittington to Trawick. Whittington was going to be better (except he was a knucklehead). 100 slots behind.
People are trying to make the case Mac is overlooked by rankings. They might be wrong, but it's not dismissable out of hand because rankings are "pretty good indicators."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 13:20:12 GMT -5
Just a couple of points. Let me first mention the majority of Loaded's games at the Adidas championships in July or online and you can watch all of them. 1) He started more games than he came off the bench. They usually started a 3 guard lineup. In the beginning (Spring session) he did not start but as Boyd struggled Mac replaced him. 2) AAU is about showcasing kids so starting isn't necessarily that big of a deal. While not the norm, some coaches will start a different 5 each game in an effort to get their kids seen. 3) He didn't play with the ball in his hands that much. There were games/stretches when he did run the show but it wasn't necessarily his primary role. This is true 4) Loaded did a good job of playing together and sharing the ball so no one player seemed to dominate the scoring for them. Their leading scorer averaged under 13 a game and they had 8 players averaging between (rounding up) 6-13 ppg. Expecting anyone to put up huge numbers for them isn't really realistic. To many guys that are capable and it's hard to go off when you don't get consistent touches. 5) When he did play on ball he played more like a game manager than a ball dominate pg, but again that could be due to the environment and talent surrounding him. By all accounts he works really hard on his game. My feeling is if you have talent, will, and work ethic that usually wins out in the end, and he has all three. If no additions are made I expect his numbers freshman season to be similar to Blair's and Pickett's. Those are normal Freshman numbers. I think both have played fine, and expect them to be much better next year. I could see Mac doing similar things. I want to stress the fact that's a normal progression for Freshman. Struggle early. Show flashes and noticeable improvement Sophomore year. Become key pieces as upperclassmen. I think all three could play together so it's not really a competition imo. I also think the hype around him is totally unfair to him. He seems to handle it well, and being a marked man everywhere he goes isn't bad for his development at all. The competition is weak but some of the plays and shots he makes are college ready and would work against better comp. Some of the drives and other more athletic plays may not be considering the size he would face down low. The fact that he isn't just relying on his athleticism to get over is a positive sign and I expect him to be a good player in time for us. Hopefully that comes sooner than later but if it takes time, that's fine, and totally normal. I agree with all of this and I know you watch this stuff as closely as I do so you get it. Maybe the bench was the wrong word but he played less than the other two and even less than Boyd when he was on the team. Boyd is actually ranked below (although pretty close) to Mac so that gives us another data point. Mac is one of the top 5 most "covered" players and played on the best AAU team. I just don't get why everyone thinks that he has been this misjudged through the process. If any thing a player like him would be overrated based on the hype, I'm looking at you Lamelo. I hope he is good and will make a huge jump for us. I am just being realistic with my expectations though. This is what he needs to be for this team assuming Jessie comes back. If he accepts that role he will be an asset to this team. If he tries to live up to the hype then Im worried. I just really hope he can defend an opposing PG because that is what is truly needed. 5) When he did play on ball he played more like a game manager than a ball dominate pg, but again that could be due to the environment and talent surrounding him. I just think it's hard to evaluate what he is or isn't based on that. If he played on a team that let him eat than we would have a better gauge. He's not Grayson Allen but Allen averaged numbers very similar to Mac playing on a similarly talented team. He went to another team that didn't have as many perimeter players, doubled his numbers and offers. The games I watched he got a lot of minutes fwiw. I'm not sure if the Adidas Championships are factored into his minutes total but it seems to me his minutes increased over the Summer. I also think Llewelyn and Bolton are a little bit better than their rankings but I'm not a person that puts a lot of stock in rankings below the top 30-40 or so tbh. I do agree they generally get more things right than wrong but unless they have physical limitation usually the kids that work hardest become quality pieces.. Rankings don't usually reflect work ethic and drive. One thing about Mac is folks around him say he works really hard and has a strong desire to reach his full potential.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 30, 2017 13:43:16 GMT -5
Just a couple of points. Let me first mention the majority of Loaded's games at the Adidas championships in July are online and you can watch all of them. 1) He started more games than he came off the bench. They usually started a 3 guard lineup. In the beginning (Spring session) he did not start but as Boyd struggled Mac replaced him. 2) AAU is about showcasing kids so starting isn't necessarily that big of a deal. While not the norm, some coaches will start a different 5 each game in an effort to get their kids seen. 3) He didn't play with the ball in his hands that much. There were games/stretches when he did run the show but it wasn't necessarily his primary role. This is true 4) Loaded did a good job of playing together and sharing the ball so no one player seemed to dominate the scoring for them. Their leading scorer averaged under 13 a game and they had 8 players averaging between (rounding up) 6-13 ppg. Expecting anyone to put up huge numbers for them isn't really realistic. To many guys that are capable and it's hard to go off when you don't get consistent touches. That effects rankings also, I would expect a few of those kids to outplay theirs.. 5) When he did play on ball he played more like a game manager than a ball dominate pg, but again that could be due to the environment and talent surrounding him. It wouldn't make sense, or show any semblance of B-ball iq to play on Loaded like he does for Gate City. By all accounts he works really hard on his game. My feeling is if you have talent, will, and work ethic that usually wins out in the end, and he has all three. If no additions are made I expect his numbers freshman season to be similar to Blair's and Pickett's. Those are normal Freshman numbers. I think both have played fine, and expect them to be much better next year. I could see Mac doing similar things. I want to stress the fact that's a normal progression for Freshman. Struggle early. Show flashes and noticeable improvement Sophomore year. Become key pieces as upperclassmen. I think all three could play together so it's not really a competition imo. I also think the hype around him is totally unfair to him. He seems to handle it well, and being a marked man everywhere he goes isn't bad for his development at all. The competition is weak but some of the plays and shots he makes are college ready and would work against better comp. Some of the drives and other more athletic plays may not be considering the size he would face down low. The fact that he isn't just relying on his athleticism to get over is a positive sign, and I expect him to be a good player for us eventually.
Hopefully that comes sooner than later but if it takes time, that's fine, and totally normal. Very well stated post!
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 30, 2017 13:47:38 GMT -5
I just think it's hard to evaluate what he is or isn't based on that. If he played on a team that let him eat than we would have a better gauge. He's not Grayson Allen but Allen averaged numbers very similar to Mac playing on a similarly talented team. He went to another team that didn't have as many perimeter players, doubled his numbers and offers. The games I watched he got a lot of minutes fwiw. I'm not sure if the Adidas Championships are factored into his minutes total but it seems to me his minutes increased over the Summer. I also think Llewelyn and Bolton are a little bit better than their rankings but I'm not a person that puts a lot of stock in rankings below the top 30-40 or so tbh. I do agree they generally get more things right than wrong but unless they have physical limitation usually the kids that work hardest become quality pieces.. Rankings don't usually reflect work ethic and drive. One thing about Mac is folks around him say he works really hard and has a strong desire to reach his full potential. He did get more minutes because Boyd didn't play in the championships. As for the rankings I trust them much further than 30-40. I discussed my opinion in the rankings thread so I wont do it again here but feel free to respond in there and I will reply. I will just say that if Mac was playing at Gate City and some B level AAU team I would think there would be a much better chance that most of the coaches and rankings were wrong. As I have said before this doesn't mean Mac wont be good. The chances are better that he will be average and not live up to a lot of people's expectations on here. My main worry is that Patrick see's him as the answer at PG and doesn't try to get better guys. Based on the offers that have gone out for 2019 so far I am worried. We currently stand at 1 2019 PG, granted who is a great one but we have to beat Duke and Kansas for and 0 2020 PG. Meanwhile we have 6 offers each for SF,PF, and C for 2019 when those are much less needs based on what we have and whats coming in 2018. That is what is starting to worry me. I am traumatized by the JT3 PG philosophy and this smells of it so far.
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 30, 2017 14:27:42 GMT -5
The JT3 PG philosophy had Tremont Waters (18 points, 6-12, 3-6 from three, 8 assists, 4 steals, 4 TO vs Memphis) signed and coming, so I'm not sure how that's something you are traumatized by. We'd have been set for 4 years with the best PG in the entire conference from day one. It's amazing to me to look back on people's perceptions of our roster for 2017-2018 in January/February last year when everyone decided the sky was falling.
I think McClung could be our answer at SG. Maybe he can handle PG, but look at his line from yesterday - 44 points, 0 assists. I'd feel a lot better about next year if we had another good guard under wraps, or if Kirby could find some PG from Mississippi or something, or if we would start giving Mosely more time so he'd be ready for next year.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 30, 2017 15:00:53 GMT -5
The JT3 PG philosophy had Tremont Waters (18 points, 6-12, 3-6 from three, 8 assists, 4 steals, 4 TO vs Memphis) signed and coming, so I'm not sure how that's something you are traumatized by. We'd have been set for 4 years with the best PG in the entire conference from day one. It's amazing to me to look back on people's perceptions of our roster for 2017-2018 in January/February last year when everyone decided the sky was falling. I think McClung could be our answer at SG. Maybe he can handle PG, but look at his line from yesterday - 44 points, 0 assists. I'd feel a lot better about next year if we had another good guard under wraps, or if Kirby could find some PG from Mississippi or something, or if we would start giving Mosely more time so he'd be ready for next year. Not to derail the thread but Waters is not better than Jalen Brunson..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 15:05:34 GMT -5
Picked up 3 fouls in the first half and had to sit had 17 at the end of the 3rd.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Dec 30, 2017 15:09:07 GMT -5
The JT3 PG philosophy had Tremont Waters (18 points, 6-12, 3-6 from three, 8 assists, 4 steals, 4 TO vs Memphis) signed and coming, so I'm not sure how that's something you are traumatized by. We'd have been set for 4 years with the best PG in the entire conference from day one. It's amazing to me to look back on people's perceptions of our roster for 2017-2018 in January/February last year when everyone decided the sky was falling. I think McClung could be our answer at SG. Maybe he can handle PG, but look at his line from yesterday - 44 points, 0 assists. I'd feel a lot better about next year if we had another good guard under wraps, or if Kirby could find some PG from Mississippi or something, or if we would start giving Mosely more time so he'd be ready for next year. Lol the JT3 philosophy was get 1 PG who was more likely a combo guard and get a bunch of interchangeable wings. He realized after about 4 years of stinking that he need a true PG and went for Waters.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Dec 30, 2017 15:18:28 GMT -5
The JT3 PG philosophy had Tremont Waters (18 points, 6-12, 3-6 from three, 8 assists, 4 steals, 4 TO vs Memphis) signed and coming, so I'm not sure how that's something you are traumatized by. We'd have been set for 4 years with the best PG in the entire conference from day one. It's amazing to me to look back on people's perceptions of our roster for 2017-2018 in January/February last year when everyone decided the sky was falling. I think McClung could be our answer at SG. Maybe he can handle PG, but look at his line from yesterday - 44 points, 0 assists. I'd feel a lot better about next year if we had another good guard under wraps, or if Kirby could find some PG from Mississippi or something, or if we would start giving Mosely more time so he'd be ready for next year. Lol the JT3 philosophy was get 1 PG who was more likely a combo guard and get a bunch of interchangeable wings. He realized after about 4 years of stinking that he need a true PG and went for Waters. yes, a true point guard and one that could put it through the hoops.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Dec 30, 2017 15:20:19 GMT -5
Picked up 3 fouls in the first half and had to sit had 17 at the end of the 3rd.
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bigskyhoya
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Post by bigskyhoya on Dec 30, 2017 15:42:17 GMT -5
The JT3 PG philosophy had Tremont Waters (18 points, 6-12, 3-6 from three, 8 assists, 4 steals, 4 TO vs Memphis) signed and coming, so I'm not sure how that's something you are traumatized by. We'd have been set for 4 years with the best PG in the entire conference from day one. It's amazing to me to look back on people's perceptions of our roster for 2017-2018 in January/February last year when everyone decided the sky was falling. I think McClung could be our answer at SG. Maybe he can handle PG, but look at his line from yesterday - 44 points, 0 assists. I'd feel a lot better about next year if we had another good guard under wraps, or if Kirby could find some PG from Mississippi or something, or if we would start giving Mosely more time so he'd be ready for next year. I consider myself to be a devoted fan but in some respects I don’t hold a candle to you, TC. Your passion forces you to make the same point about our former coach and not-to-be PG in every thread on this site. Do you think we don’t know your position by now? Please, give it a rest. While I’m very excited about Mac, I join those who believe we need a true PG who may actually be on the team next year (not Waters).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 17:40:46 GMT -5
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 30, 2017 19:36:39 GMT -5
Really sees attacking angles and what the defense is giving him well.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Dec 30, 2017 19:45:19 GMT -5
The JT3 PG philosophy had Tremont Waters (18 points, 6-12, 3-6 from three, 8 assists, 4 steals, 4 TO vs Memphis) signed and coming, so I'm not sure how that's something you are traumatized by. We'd have been set for 4 years with the best PG in the entire conference from day one. It's amazing to me to look back on people's perceptions of our roster for 2017-2018 in January/February last year when everyone decided the sky was falling. I think McClung could be our answer at SG. Maybe he can handle PG, but look at his line from yesterday - 44 points, 0 assists. I'd feel a lot better about next year if we had another good guard under wraps, or if Kirby could find some PG from Mississippi or something, or if we would start giving Mosely more time so he'd be ready for next year. Not to derail the thread but Waters is not better than Jalen Brunson.. Not to derail the thread, but Waters has a better chance at playing in the NBA than Jalen does, so I'm not sure I'd say that
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