TC
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Post by TC on Apr 7, 2017 20:18:52 GMT -5
]I'm amazed at your ridiculous suggestion that we could fire the most storied player in our program's history in a few years if he turns out to not be a good basketball coach. No, that's not how this works. Georgetown is a top 20-30 college basketball program, but it isn't run like one. I kind of disagree here. We just fired a guy who rebuilt the program and took it to the Final Four because of two down years. Ewing can absolutely be fired in 3 years if he doesn't deliver. I don't feel like it's something that the administration would want to do or would do without a lot of protest on it's hands, but I think this year proved it's possible.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Apr 7, 2017 20:48:12 GMT -5
I think this is (to your credit) a savvy recognition and a good acknowledgment. Fans who came on board in 2006 understandably see the program differently than fans like me who came on board in 1997, or those who came on board in 1980 or in 1965. Well, I appreciate your comment. There are a lot of folks on this board with different perspectives on the program, which I think is one of the things that makes this place worth reading. A lot (not all) of the folks on this board who led the charge on Ewing are folks who sat in the stands watching him play in person. They remember the championship, heck, some of them were there. They also saw him endure a lot of really horrible attacks from opposing fan bases. That makes the Ewing hire and the discussion of JTII's influence a much more personal thing. I get that, even if I don't "feel" it in the same way those generations of fans do because I wasn't there in the trenches. There are also benefits of a long-term view because, like I said, I think folks like myself just came along during a time in which we didn't appreciate the product that was there in front of us. The caveat I would make is that I think some of the longer-term fans on this board act like those like myself either have nothing to offer or can't appreciate Georgetown basketball because we weren't born in 1984. I disagree with that premise. Indeed, some of the stodginess associated with the program keeps a lot of fans from forming a lasting connection to the program. Like I said, of my several dozen friends who followed basketball pretty closely in college, only a couple of us still follow the program regularly, and those were some really good days for the program in terms of wins and losses. But I think we can lay arms down. We both want Coach Ewing to succeed. And I think, despite my reservations about his qualifications for this specific job, that he can do it. He'll need a good staff around him, but he can do it. The statements from his NBA colleagues have put me at ease a bit about his schematic ability, though I'm admittedly nervous about how he will adapt to the college game and college rules. I am concerned about his ability to recruit and evaluate talent, perhaps more with the latter than the former. I think he'll put the work in to recruit, but I'm worried he may struggle to figure out what 14 year old is going to turn into a great 18 year old is going to turn into a great 20 year old. There are just a lot of things for him to learn, and I think the media interviews underscore some of that. If he perseveres, though, and he wins big, it will be one of the great stories in all of sports. I'm willing and even excited to go down this road with him, even if it's not the road I would have chosen.
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Post by hoyaresurrection on Apr 7, 2017 21:16:06 GMT -5
I think this is (to your credit) a savvy recognition and a good acknowledgment. Fans who came on board in 2006 understandably see the program differently than fans like me who came on board in 1997, or those who came on board in 1980 or in 1965. Well, I appreciate your comment. There are a lot of folks on this board with different perspectives on the program, which I think is one of the things that makes this place worth reading. A lot (not all) of the folks on this board who led the charge on Ewing are folks who sat in the stands watching him play in person. They remember the championship, heck, some of them were there. They also saw him endure a lot of really horrible attacks from opposing fan bases. That makes the Ewing hire and the discussion of JTII's influence a much more personal thing. I get that, even if I don't "feel" it in the same way those generations of fans do because I wasn't there in the trenches. There are also benefits of a long-term view because, like I said, I think folks like myself just came along during a time in which we didn't appreciate the product that was there in front of us. The caveat I would make is that I think some of the longer-term fans on this board act like those like myself either have nothing to offer or can't appreciate Georgetown basketball because we weren't born in 1984. I disagree with that premise. Indeed, some of the stodginess associated with the program keeps a lot of fans from forming a lasting connection to the program. Like I said, of my several dozen friends who followed basketball pretty closely in college, only a couple of us still follow the program regularly, and those were some really good days for the program in terms of wins and losses. But I think we can lay arms down. We both want Coach Ewing to succeed. And I think, despite my reservations about his qualifications for this specific job, that he can do it. He'll need a good staff around him, but he can do it. The statements from his NBA colleagues have put me at ease a bit about his schematic ability, though I'm admittedly nervous about how he will adapt to the college game and college rules. I am concerned about his ability to recruit and evaluate talent, perhaps more with the latter than the former. I think he'll put the work in to recruit, but I'm worried he may struggle to figure out what 14 year old is going to turn into a great 18 year old is going to turn into a great 20 year old. There are just a lot of things for him to learn, and I think the media interviews underscore some of that. If he perseveres, though, and he wins big, it will be one of the great stories in all of sports. I'm willing and even excited to go down this road with him, even if it's not the road I would have chosen. Bama, you always make good points here. The Ewing hire is a big gamble on the University and not in their mindset. In the mind of the school they went the easy road to hiring the next JTII disciple rather going out and hiring the best available college coach. I'm a bit old school and like the hire and hate the hire for the simple reason that if it works it's perfect but if it fails it's worse then this last run of trying to fire a coach failing who is too close to the program. I'm interested to see what we come up with in this recruiting season to see how serious PE can sell this plan and his ties to the NBA. I at least think this is better than staying status quo as we know where that was heading and I really want to believe PE is a monster competitor who will bring this back to the top as he always did as a player. Winners are winners?
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Apr 7, 2017 21:29:31 GMT -5
Bama, you always make good points here. The Ewing hire is a big gamble on the University and not in their mindset. In the mind of the school they went the easy road to hiring the next JTII disciple rather going out and hiring the best available college coach. I'm a bit old school and like the hire and hate the hire for the simple reason that if it works it's perfect but if it fails it's worse then this last run of trying to fire a coach failing who is too close to the program. I'm interested to see what we come up with in this recruiting season to see how serious PE can sell this plan and his ties to the NBA. I at least think this is better than staying status quo as we know where that was heading and I really want to believe PE is a monster competitor who will bring this back to the top as he always did as a player. Winners are winners? Thanks. You're right that it's a risky hire, which is why some folks like me were so reluctant to embrace it. Slowly, though, I've started to move on. I'd be lying if I were to say I didn't watch a few hype videos that my friends sent around this week and start to get excited about the potential. After giving my thoughts on the process that led to Ewing (which obviously inspire plenty of disagreement), I'm ready to move on and look to the Ewing era. I'm with you on recruiting, but would add talent evaluation right up there. I think Ewing will put in the work on recruiting, as long as he has good people around him making sure that he knows what he needs to do. The bigger question I have is whether he can look at footage of five middle school kids and determine which one is likely to grow into an all-star basketball player. And then, which one is going to grow into a strong, mature 18 year old who will put in the work and give you 2-4 good years of college play. This evaluation is really tough, and there's little margin for error in basketball because the teams are so small, compared to something like football. All it takes is to miss on a couple of recruits who don't develop as expected, and you can be out of a job. Just ask JTIII. At this point, I think we just have to believe. Next year is going to be rough, no getting around it. Hopefully, 2018-2019 will be a little better. For the 2019 recruiting class, he should be able to get a full start, and then the 2019-20 season can be one where maybe we start to see what we have. If we can somehow land Waters, I like our chances to perhaps move that time frame up a bit. But even with Waters, we will be a bit short handed next year. I just want to see his team take the floor, see what he runs, and hopefully it'll be a product that's easy to get behind.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 7, 2017 23:00:16 GMT -5
Ewing has at least 5 years. He needs to get through more than one recruiting cycle. The cupboard is bare.
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Post by upstatesaxa on Apr 8, 2017 8:17:06 GMT -5
So spare me about the process. The publicity the program has gotten nationally this week has been absolutely priceless--our hire was a bigger story this week than UNC winning the national title. Now we find out what Ewing can do. He either wins or he doesn't, and if he doesn't, we'll want him to move on. This would have been true with any other candidate as well and we would have been equally nervous about what might happen. The best news out of all of this is that we've learned GU can in fact fire coaches with whom we have a deep personal connection if they don't perform. That finding is more important than the coach hiring process. I hope he wins. I think there are reasons to think he can win. But I have no more idea if he will win than any of you do. Care more about substance than publicity. If I recall, you were lauding the publicity aspects as the events played out this week. But publicity is very transitory and isn't going to help win a game at Seton all next February
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 8, 2017 8:36:22 GMT -5
Ewing has at least 5 years. He needs to get through more than one recruiting cycle. The cupboard is bare. I always say six. Recruiting begins now for 2019. For him to put a plan in place takes six years. Whatever happens between now and then is what it is but we'll know more about the long-term state after that. Short-term he has some pieces, and a few recruiting wins away from being competitive. We should be optimistic.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Apr 8, 2017 8:42:32 GMT -5
So spare me about the process. The publicity the program has gotten nationally this week has been absolutely priceless--our hire was a bigger story this week than UNC winning the national title. Now we find out what Ewing can do. He either wins or he doesn't, and if he doesn't, we'll want him to move on. This would have been true with any other candidate as well and we would have been equally nervous about what might happen. The best news out of all of this is that we've learned GU can in fact fire coaches with whom we have a deep personal connection if they don't perform. That finding is more important than the coach hiring process. I hope he wins. I think there are reasons to think he can win. But I have no more idea if he will win than any of you do. Care more about substance than publicity. If I recall, you were lauding the publicity aspects as the events played out this week. But publicity is very transitory and isn't going to help win a game at Seton all next February Publicity is good only to the extent it may help with recruiting. Better to have some buzz in the national media than not. How much it helps, who knows?
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Apr 8, 2017 10:19:47 GMT -5
So spare me about the process. The publicity the program has gotten nationally this week has been absolutely priceless--our hire was a bigger story this week than UNC winning the national title. Now we find out what Ewing can do. He either wins or he doesn't, and if he doesn't, we'll want him to move on. This would have been true with any other candidate as well and we would have been equally nervous about what might happen. The best news out of all of this is that we've learned GU can in fact fire coaches with whom we have a deep personal connection if they don't perform. That finding is more important than the coach hiring process. I hope he wins. I think there are reasons to think he can win. But I have no more idea if he will win than any of you do. Care more about substance than publicity. If I recall, you were lauding the publicity aspects as the events played out this week. But publicity is very transitory and isn't going to help win a game at Seton all next February Of course I care more about substance than publicity. Ewing as coach won't be news again if he loses. But we don't know the substance yet--nobody does. We only know about the process and the publicity.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Apr 8, 2017 10:49:23 GMT -5
]I'm amazed at your ridiculous suggestion that we could fire the most storied player in our program's history in a few years if he turns out to not be a good basketball coach. No, that's not how this works. Georgetown is a top 20-30 college basketball program, but it isn't run like one. I kind of disagree here. We just fired a guy who rebuilt the program and took it to the Final Four because of two down years. Ewing can absolutely be fired in 3 years if he doesn't deliver. I don't feel like it's something that the administration would want to do or would do without a lot of protest on it's hands, but I think this year proved it's possible. Fired because of just "two down years"? I have a daughter who is about to turn ten. We have not had a good March during her lifetime and most have been downright embarrassing. hm
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 8, 2017 11:11:15 GMT -5
We just fired a guy who rebuilt the program and took it to the Final Four because of two down years. I do think Georgetown has a longer leash than most, and I have no exact way to pinpoint exactly why JTIII was fired. But it is reductionist to say he was fired for two bad years, I think. - 2 bad years, and three of four.
- Incredibly clear he could not figure out the new defensive foul calling.
- Team has look uninspired and unorganized for two years. A good coach has a team play above its talent. This team hasn't for years.
- Talent level had dropped to the point where it would take years to fix, and his record of recruiting evaluation is questionable at best.
Is it possible that III just got a complete series of players who wouldn't work, and perhaps that was unlucky? I suppose, but factoring in our inability to adjust to the new rules, the fact that Thompson made those recruiting choices ... it's hard to say that it is MORE likely he'd have bounced back than the alternative.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Apr 8, 2017 11:55:45 GMT -5
JT III had a nice run and then it ended-for whatever reason. What is clear from both his comments during and prior to the season is that the coach overestimated or oversold this year`s team, promised and quickly abandoned a new system and ultimately never figured out how to fix the numerous shortcomings of the team. If this had been a one year problem no one could justify the termination, but it was a reflection of ongoing problems and several failed attempts to find answers to new rules and the evolution of the college game. I do not doubt that JT III can come back and be successful just not now on the Hilltop.
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 8, 2017 13:56:49 GMT -5
We just fired a guy who rebuilt the program and took it to the Final Four because of two down years. I do think Georgetown has a longer leash than most, and I have no exact way to pinpoint exactly why JTIII was fired. But it is reductionist to say he was fired for two bad years, I think. - 2 bad years, and three of four.
- Incredibly clear he could not figure out the new defensive foul calling.
- Team has look uninspired and unorganized for two years. A good coach has a team play above its talent. This team hasn't for years.
- Talent level had dropped to the point where it would take years to fix, and his record of recruiting evaluation is questionable at best.
Do you honestly think that point 2, 3, and 4 are something that are understood at a Jack DeGioia level - or if you subscribe to the BoD narrative, they are something that the BoD really understands and can speak to the the roster going forward? I don't - those are reasons that SFHoya99 might use to justify his viewpoint, but they aren't the mindset of the decision makers. Those people by and large don't know Reggie Cameron from Bradley Hayes. He got fired for two bad years, losing the fanbase, and possibly inside politics in not keeping Trey Mourning happy. It's amazing to me looking at two consecutive posts like GIGA's and HoopsMcCann's though - Ewing's definitely not getting six years to work things out because there are people like HoopsMcCann out there. If he misses on three tournaments, the hot seat is going to be warm. If we don't advance in 4, it gets warmer. Fanbases don't have the patience people are espousing in that benchmarks thread, and I doubt the people stressing long leashes have the patience to see those leashes played out. Especially in Ewing's case, where despite what everyone is saying this week - if he's not successful people are going to go to the narrative that he never even had the resume for this job.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Apr 8, 2017 14:13:17 GMT -5
I do think Georgetown has a longer leash than most, and I have no exact way to pinpoint exactly why JTIII was fired. But it is reductionist to say he was fired for two bad years, I think. - 2 bad years, and three of four.
- Incredibly clear he could not figure out the new defensive foul calling.
- Team has look uninspired and unorganized for two years. A good coach has a team play above its talent. This team hasn't for years.
- Talent level had dropped to the point where it would take years to fix, and his record of recruiting evaluation is questionable at best.
Do you honestly think that point 2, 3, and 4 are something that are understood at a Jack DeGioia level - or if you subscribe to the BoD narrative, they are something that the BoD really understands and can speak to the the roster going forward? I don't - those are reasons that SFHoya99 might use to justify his viewpoint, but they aren't the mindset of the decision makers. Those people by and large don't know Reggie Cameron from Bradley Hayes. He got fired for two bad years, losing the fanbase, and possibly inside politics in not keeping Trey Mourning happy. It's amazing to me looking at two consecutive posts like GIGA's and HoopsMcCann's though - Ewing's definitely not getting six years to work things out because there are people like HoopsMcCann out there. If he misses on three tournaments, the hot seat is going to be warm. If we don't advance in 4, it gets warmer. Fanbases don't have the patience people are espousing in that benchmarks thread, and I doubt the people stressing long leashes have the patience to see those leashes played out. Especially in Ewing's case, where despite what everyone is saying this week - if he's not successful people are going to go to the narrative that he never even had the resume for this job. I think you sell the administration short. Maybe 2 is something they're not really paying attention to, but I absolutely believe that the decision makers are aware of uninspired play on the floor, lack of player development/transfers, and a downward trajectory in recruiting. And if you think they're blind to the fact that we whiffed on Hart and Jenkins when they were right in our backyard (and they ended up winning a championship for our main rival to boot), you're not giving them enough credit.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Apr 8, 2017 14:21:08 GMT -5
I don't get the idea that the "decision-makers" are sufficiently out of touch so as not to be influenced by feedback from "below"--particularly of the strident and persistent variety from alumni/fans of any influence. If this comes within the ambit of "losing the fanbase"--something that is not the same as "two bad years"--there's truth there. The cracks in the foundation were starting to show as early as the talented but maddeningly inconsistent 2009-10 team, and have been generally widening since then to encompass recruiting and team building. People have noticed. It's more than "two bad years," and I suspect the PTB have been made well aware of the obvious.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Apr 8, 2017 15:00:03 GMT -5
I do think Georgetown has a longer leash than most, and I have no exact way to pinpoint exactly why JTIII was fired. But it is reductionist to say he was fired for two bad years, I think. - 2 bad years, and three of four.
- Incredibly clear he could not figure out the new defensive foul calling.
- Team has look uninspired and unorganized for two years. A good coach has a team play above its talent. This team hasn't for years.
- Talent level had dropped to the point where it would take years to fix, and his record of recruiting evaluation is questionable at best.
Do you honestly think that point 2, 3, and 4 are something that are understood at a Jack DeGioia level - or if you subscribe to the BoD narrative, they are something that the BoD really understands and can speak to the the roster going forward? I don't - those are reasons that SFHoya99 might use to justify his viewpoint, but they aren't the mindset of the decision makers. Those people by and large don't know Reggie Cameron from Bradley Hayes. He got fired for two bad years, losing the fanbase, and possibly inside politics in not keeping Trey Mourning happy. It's amazing to me looking at two consecutive posts like GIGA's and HoopsMcCann's though - Ewing's definitely not getting six years to work things out because there are people like HoopsMcCann out there. If he misses on three tournaments, the hot seat is going to be warm. If we don't advance in 4, it gets warmer. Fanbases don't have the patience people are espousing in that benchmarks thread, and I doubt the people stressing long leashes have the patience to see those leashes played out. Especially in Ewing's case, where despite what everyone is saying this week - if he's not successful people are going to go to the narrative that he never even had the resume for this job. Not sure where to go with such a stupid post. I just pointed out a fact that JTIII's lack of success was more than just two bad years. Extrapolating the length of Ewing's leash based on that is ridiculous. But I guess making things up for people looks like fun, so I'll play. If we had more people like TC, we would still have Esherick fisting the program because we need to be patient. Or we would trot out JTIII next year for another sub-NIT record...and if you think next year would have been any different with Pryor, Peak, Waters, others? not here, you've completely lost your grip on reality. Would three brutal years and 11 unsuccessful post seasons be enough? Not for people like TC...we just require more patience. hm
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Apr 8, 2017 20:12:39 GMT -5
I do think Georgetown has a longer leash than most, and I have no exact way to pinpoint exactly why JTIII was fired. But it is reductionist to say he was fired for two bad years, I think. - 2 bad years, and three of four.
- Incredibly clear he could not figure out the new defensive foul calling.
- Team has look uninspired and unorganized for two years. A good coach has a team play above its talent. This team hasn't for years.
- Talent level had dropped to the point where it would take years to fix, and his record of recruiting evaluation is questionable at best.
Do you honestly think that point 2, 3, and 4 are something that are understood at a Jack DeGioia level - or if you subscribe to the BoD narrative, they are something that the BoD really understands and can speak to the the roster going forward? I don't - those are reasons that SFHoya99 might use to justify his viewpoint, but they aren't the mindset of the decision makers. Those people by and large don't know Reggie Cameron from Bradley Hayes. He got fired for two bad years, losing the fanbase, and possibly inside politics in not keeping Trey Mourning happy. It's amazing to me looking at two consecutive posts like GIGA's and HoopsMcCann's though - Ewing's definitely not getting six years to work things out because there are people like HoopsMcCann out there. If he misses on three tournaments, the hot seat is going to be warm. If we don't advance in 4, it gets warmer. Fanbases don't have the patience people are espousing in that benchmarks thread, and I doubt the people stressing long leashes have the patience to see those leashes played out. Especially in Ewing's case, where despite what everyone is saying this week - if he's not successful people are going to go to the narrative that he never even had the resume for this job. Please, just get it over with and change your name to "New Eagle54" since you have apparently decided to adopt that type of persona.
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Post by hoyacane11 on Apr 8, 2017 20:38:04 GMT -5
Do you honestly think that point 2, 3, and 4 are something that are understood at a Jack DeGioia level - or if you subscribe to the BoD narrative, they are something that the BoD really understands and can speak to the the roster going forward? I don't - those are reasons that SFHoya99 might use to justify his viewpoint, but they aren't the mindset of the decision makers. Those people by and large don't know Reggie Cameron from Bradley Hayes. He got fired for two bad years, losing the fanbase, and possibly inside politics in not keeping Trey Mourning happy. It's amazing to me looking at two consecutive posts like GIGA's and HoopsMcCann's though - Ewing's definitely not getting six years to work things out because there are people like HoopsMcCann out there. If he misses on three tournaments, the hot seat is going to be warm. If we don't advance in 4, it gets warmer. Fanbases don't have the patience people are espousing in that benchmarks thread, and I doubt the people stressing long leashes have the patience to see those leashes played out. Especially in Ewing's case, where despite what everyone is saying this week - if he's not successful people are going to go to the narrative that he never even had the resume for this job. Not sure where to go with such a stupid post. I just pointed out a fact that JTIII's lack of success was more than just two bad years. Extrapolating the length of Ewing's leash based on that is ridiculous. But I guess making things up for people looks like fun, so I'll play. If we had more people like TC, we would still have Esherick fisting the program because we need to be patient. Or we would trot out JTIII next year for another sub-NIT record...and if you think next year would have been any different with Pryor, Peak, Waters, others? not here, you've completely lost your grip on reality. Would three brutal years and 11 unsuccessful post seasons be enough? Not for people like TC...we just require more patience. hm Great post. lmao at 2 bad years, geez. Dude just can't get over the fact that Ewing is the coach.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Apr 12, 2017 8:56:16 GMT -5
Ewing has at least 5 years. He needs to get through more than one recruiting cycle. The cupboard is bare. I always say six. Recruiting begins now for 2019. For him to put a plan in place takes six years. Whatever happens between now and then is what it is but we'll know more about the long-term state after that. Short-term he has some pieces, and a few recruiting wins away from being competitive. We should be optimistic. Agreed...that is why I always say you need eight to ten years to have a real evaluation of a coach. You need to let him recruit multiple cycles of players and let those players develop. That takes time and patience.
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Apr 12, 2017 16:49:11 GMT -5
I always say six. Recruiting begins now for 2019. For him to put a plan in place takes six years. Whatever happens between now and then is what it is but we'll know more about the long-term state after that. Short-term he has some pieces, and a few recruiting wins away from being competitive. We should be optimistic. Agreed...that is why I always say you need eight to ten years to have a real evaluation of a coach. You need to let him recruit multiple cycles of players and let those players develop. That takes time and patience. You're right in that some coaches who are let go before [8 to 10 years] could have been successful with more time. However, a program really can't survive that long a period without any signs of life. So, to be fair to the coach? Yes, maybe they need longer than one recruiting cycle to reach their potential. But imo its just not realistic to expect fans to hang around a dormant program that long.
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