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Post by hoyalove4ever on Apr 12, 2017 16:49:43 GMT -5
Agreed...that is why I always say you need eight to ten years to have a real evaluation of a coach. You need to let him recruit multiple cycles of players and let those players develop. That takes time and patience. So true. 8 to 10 years sounds about right. You need 300-plus games and 8 or 9 full recruiting classes to really get your feet wet. I think the jury is still out on Brad Stevens' time at Butler. He only coached there for six seasons, what can anybody really make of that? Too small of a sample size for a "real evaluation." ... Anyhow, back to planet Earth. If we aren't near the bubble in 2019 and in the tournament in 2020, then Ewing gets the door. I'd make an exception if there's an outstanding recruiting class coming in the following year. We can forgive next season, but after that, he owns it. The BE sent 7 of 10 teams to the tournament last year. If we're still a bottom-3 BE team three years in, then he's doing it wrong. Incidentally, at the end of the 2019-20 season, Ewing will be 57, the same age as John Thompson when he coached his final game in 1999. Thanks for the amicable response. Ewing will not really even have many of "his" players in place by 2020. Anyone he gets in the 2017 class obviously is scramble mode. He is waaaay behind the eight ball for the 2018 and 2019 classes. That is not to say that he cannot land good players, but it is silly to expect him to have great success when other coaches have been building relationships with those players for years. So, "his" first recruits will arrive as freshmen for the 2018-2019 year. In 2020 those players only will be sophomores. To me, that is not close to enough to have a real evaluation of a coach. The 2020 class will be about the first for which Patrick was on even footing (or close to it) with other coaches. I would like to see him sign several classes and watch those players develop to upperclassmen before I really have an evaluation. But that is just me. If others want to take the "win yesterday" attitude, they can do so. I feel it is an unfair and inaccurate way to evaluate a coach.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Apr 12, 2017 16:50:53 GMT -5
Agreed...that is why I always say you need eight to ten years to have a real evaluation of a coach. You need to let him recruit multiple cycles of players and let those players develop. That takes time and patience. You're right in that some coaches who are let go before [8 to 10 years] could have been successful with more time. However, a program really can't survive that long a period without any signs of life. So, to be fair to the coach? Yes, maybe they need longer than one recruiting cycle to reach their potential. But imo its just not realistic to expect fans to hang around a dormant program that long. The real fans are in it regardless of results. The other people who follow the program and want to leave if the team has a few bad years? I hope they leave and never come back.
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Apr 12, 2017 16:54:36 GMT -5
You're right in that some coaches who are let go before [8 to 10 years] could have been successful with more time. However, a program really can't survive that long a period without any signs of life. So, to be fair to the coach? Yes, maybe they need longer than one recruiting cycle to reach their potential. But imo its just not realistic to expect fans to hang around a dormant program that long. The real fans are in it regardless of results. The other people who follow the program and want to leave if the team has a few bad years? I hope they leave and never come back. I get that. But realistically, you're going to be looking at a very, very empty Verizon Center and a dead program if those fans leave. Sorta like what we had this year.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 12, 2017 17:00:29 GMT -5
I always say six. Recruiting begins now for 2019. For him to put a plan in place takes six years. Whatever happens between now and then is what it is but we'll know more about the long-term state after that. Short-term he has some pieces, and a few recruiting wins away from being competitive. We should be optimistic. Agreed...that is why I always say you need eight to ten years to have a real evaluation of a coach. You need to let him recruit multiple cycles of players and let those players develop. That takes time and patience. Joe Paterno and Jim Boeheim would suggest that the real evaluation only occurs at the end of a career.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Apr 13, 2017 8:39:07 GMT -5
You're right in that some coaches who are let go before [8 to 10 years] could have been successful with more time. However, a program really can't survive that long a period without any signs of life. So, to be fair to the coach? Yes, maybe they need longer than one recruiting cycle to reach their potential. But imo its just not realistic to expect fans to hang around a dormant program that long. The real fans are in it regardless of results. The other people who follow the program and want to leave if the team has a few bad years? I hope they leave and never come back. I think you need some patience with a new coach/staff as they implement their system and start attracting players who can thrive in that system, but in today's college basketball it should not take more than 3 -4 years to be competitive. With grad transfers, regular transfers and the volatile recruiting process you only need a handful of "good" players and an effective system to be competitive. Does he need to win the BE in the next two years to be seen as a success? No. He does need to get the program to a point where it is very competitive on a yearly basis and challenging to be in the NCAA tournament by the third year. If his system/program is going to be a real success you would hope that after 5 years he is competing for the BE conference title every year and is in the NCAA tournament every year. This turnaround won't happen overnight, but it can happen fairly quickly. Fans just want to see it going in the right direction and I think they will support the team, and the coach, if they see that.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Apr 13, 2017 8:53:32 GMT -5
Thanks for those thoughts, which are well articulated and reasonable. I respectfully disagree and believe a new coach can do an outstanding job and still be fighting to be in the top five of the Big East in his fifth year or so. I have high hopes for Patrick but tempered expectations at the same time.
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Post by practice on Apr 13, 2017 9:02:00 GMT -5
You're right in that some coaches who are let go before [8 to 10 years] could have been successful with more time. However, a program really can't survive that long a period without any signs of life. So, to be fair to the coach? Yes, maybe they need longer than one recruiting cycle to reach their potential. But imo its just not realistic to expect fans to hang around a dormant program that long. The real fans are in it regardless of results. The other people who follow the program and want to leave if the team has a few bad years? I hope they leave and never come back. 8 to 10 years?!?!?! I don't think that's realistic in coaching or really many other high profile professions. Perhaps a novelist or an artist, if they don't mind having the "starving" adjective added to their title. For better or worse, the pressure is on Coach Ewing now to produce results. He's locking down his roster, flying up to meet with the Waters' family, recruiting 2017 4 star kids, working the 5th year market, trying to attract assistant coaches who are known recruiters ... I think he realizes that immediate success is the best path towards job security. Look at JTIII ... it basically took him 2 years to right the ship. I think there'll be a lot of grumbling ... including from longtime "real" fans ... if the Hoyas don't look markedly better by the end of the 2018-2019 season.
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dailey247
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Post by dailey247 on Apr 14, 2017 15:45:48 GMT -5
Regardless of how long it takes to truly evaluate a coach, we don't have 10 years to find out. It takes more than 10,000 games to truly evaluate a baseball team, but the season is still only going to be 162 games long. Look at the Big East in 2002. 10 years later, 65% of those teams have left or are on their way out one way or another. And if you told me that in 2002, I'd have thought you were insane. So it might sound insane that in 2027, North Carolina schools will be banned from NCAA play because of discriminatory legislation against people whose first and last name start with the same letter, and as a result the ACC steals Villanova, Xavier, Butler, and St. John's because those are the three best programs in the Big East plus a way to steal the Garden for a tournament. But we can't take any chances. Call me not a "real fan" if you want, but I'm not going to give a flying F about this team anymore if it's a glorified division II program. Ask an older Holy Cross basketball fan. Or, ask me how much I care about Georgetown football (sorry, cheap shot).
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CTHoya08
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Bring back Izzo!
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Post by CTHoya08 on Apr 14, 2017 15:56:45 GMT -5
Regardless of how long it takes to truly evaluate a coach, we don't have 10 years to find out. It takes more than 10,000 games to truly evaluate a baseball team, but the season is still only going to be 162 games long. Look at the Big East in 2002. 10 years later, 65% of those teams have left or are on their way out one way or another. And if you told me that in 2002, I'd have thought you were insane. So it might sound insane that in 2027, North Carolina schools will be banned from NCAA play because of discriminatory legislation against people whose first and last name start with the same letter, and as a result the ACC steals Villanova, Xavier, Butler, and St. John's because those are the three best programs in the Big East plus a way to steal the Garden for a tournament. But we can't take any chances. Call me not a "real fan" if you want, but I'm not going to give a flying F about this team anymore if it's a glorified division II program. Ask an older Holy Cross basketball fan. Or, ask me how much I care about Georgetown football (sorry, cheap shot). This hits the nail on the head.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Apr 14, 2017 16:06:24 GMT -5
Regardless of how long it takes to truly evaluate a coach, we don't have 10 years to find out. It takes more than 10,000 games to truly evaluate a baseball team, but the season is still only going to be 162 games long. Look at the Big East in 2002. 10 years later, 65% of those teams have left or are on their way out one way or another. And if you told me that in 2002, I'd have thought you were insane. So it might sound insane that in 2027, North Carolina schools will be banned from NCAA play because of discriminatory legislation against people whose first and last name start with the same letter, and as a result the ACC steals Villanova, Xavier, Butler, and St. John's because those are the three best programs in the Big East plus a way to steal the Garden for a tournament. But we can't take any chances. Call me not a "real fan" if you want, but I'm not going to give a flying F about this team anymore if it's a glorified division II program. Ask an older Holy Cross basketball fan. Or, ask me how much I care about Georgetown football (sorry, cheap shot). Actually, in 2002 to the collapse of the Big East was fairly predictable And not all that shocking. I think what would have been more shocking was that it stayed together until 2013 after the first raiding.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Apr 15, 2017 6:40:08 GMT -5
Whatever the time fairly should be, he's got 4 years to show results realistically.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 15, 2017 19:23:50 GMT -5
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 21, 2017 17:55:31 GMT -5
Nice Q&A about the process ... we'll see if DFW believes it It seems that being coach for 2 weeks has already aged Coach Ewing a decade (he's 54, not 64 as the typo would suggest).
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 22, 2017 1:03:51 GMT -5
Nice Q&A about the process ... we'll see if DFW believes it Poor DFW, all these years believing that the 2004 hc search was a thorough national search, and defending it... Now he knows better.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Apr 22, 2017 5:03:09 GMT -5
Nice Q&A about the process ... we'll see if DFW believes it Poor DFW, all these years believing that the 2004 hc search was a thorough national search, and defending it... Now he knows better. Somewhere, a village is missing its idiot.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 22, 2017 7:53:12 GMT -5
Poor DFW, all these years believing that the 2004 hc search was a thorough national search, and defending it... Now he knows better. Somewhere, a village is missing its idiot. Let us help you get back to that casual village, madge. I know they insulted you over there, but we're here to help you.
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