Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Oct 7, 2016 12:42:03 GMT -5
I am that detestable (deplorable??) demographic - white male plodding toward 60, registered Republican (although I do vote for the occasional Democrat when he or she is the better candidate), upper middle class. My father and father-in-law both fought in WWII. All that being said, I have no problem whatsoever with any of these athletes using these forums and these actions to exhibit their concerns over these very real issues, as long as it is done respectfully - the T-shirts 2 years ago; kneeling, bowing the head while arm-in-arm, etc. As has been said above, they do not forfeit their civil conscience by playing a sport, whether for money or under scholarship. Georgetown prides itself on developing students as thoughtful and caring members of society. Wearing a basketball uniform should not affect or restrict that mission - again, as long as it is accompanied by understanding and consideration of ALL of the difficult issues involved. Spot on Frazier. The mission of the University is to educate. When peaceful, respectful expression is stifled, so is that mission. I will stand with my hand over my heart, thanking God for the country that allows me and those young men and women to so express our own feelings and beliefs.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Oct 7, 2016 12:49:27 GMT -5
So how is it done disrespectfully? Yes this is education. Educate folks on who wrote the nat'l anthem. A racist Francis Scott Key. Stifled? Meaning what? Are you african in america Elvado? When people know the true meaning how can they support. Out of touch people will keep on supporting the racist Star Spangled Banner.
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Post by arlingtonhoya05 on Oct 7, 2016 12:57:15 GMT -5
Personally- I see absolutely nothing wrong with peaceful protest.
I will fully support whatever decision the players and coaching staff come to.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 7, 2016 13:03:51 GMT -5
So how is it done disrespectfully? Yes this is education. Educate folks on who wrote the nat'l anthem. A racist Francis Scott Key. Stifled? Meaning what? Are you african in america Elvado? When people know the true meaning how can they support. Out of touch people will keep on supporting the racist Star Spangled Banner. Glide: You are fighting with the wrong guy here. What I mean by respectful and peaceful is exactly what athletes and others have been dong all over the country. Kaepernick, the Celtics, the high school team in Camden, NJ have all been expressing their opinion and calling into question the treatment they have experienced in a mature thoughtful way. I am all for that. I appreciate their viewpoint and salute their desire to create a better country. I also appreciate that they are not attempting to shout down the anthem or interfere with people of a different viewpoint. You and I have no argument here. At least I don't.
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guru
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Post by guru on Oct 7, 2016 13:05:13 GMT -5
To me, the anthem and the flag represent ideals that we strive for, and clearly have not always attained. And yes, it also honors sacrifices that have been made along the way. It does not validate every action America has ever taken. I understand the point being made, but I wish people would look forward, not backward. And yes, I know that simplifies a very complicated issue. Imo I don't think you should wallow in the past but you can't talk about the future without acknowledging it's existence and effect on our current status. To be clear though, the protests are NOT about the song or the flag just pointing out a fact. The last verse discusses killing slaves. Defenders will say "treasonous slaves" but still you can understand why saying respect the Anthem is a bridge to far for "some" due to those lyrics. That was my point regarding that element. Personally I stand, but I get why some might feel like not doing so.. In a lot of cases people who aren't facing these issues don't want to be bothered with these issues or doubt they are as serious as made out to be. For others these issues are too important to ignore regardless of venue. It is what it is, but dismissing the latter opinion is why voices continue to get louder and louder and will continue to get louder. Thing is most people are just looking for acknowledgement and a pledge to work together to make it better, not some radical agenda. Doing that would do a lot to tamp down the uproar imo... Fair enough. I have no problem with kneeling for the anthem - it seems to me that it could be interpreted as an expression of and exercising of personal freedom. And that's what most of us consider to be the best part of the American ideal.
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TBird41
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"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Oct 7, 2016 13:33:52 GMT -5
To me, the anthem and the flag represent ideals that we strive for, and clearly have not always attained. And yes, it also honors sacrifices that have been made along the way. It does not validate every action America has ever taken. I understand the point being made, but I wish people would look forward, not backward. And yes, I know that simplifies a very complicated issue. Imo I don't think you should wallow in the past but you can't talk about the future without acknowledging it's existence and effect on our current status. To be clear though, the protests are NOT about the song or the flag just pointing out a fact. The last verse discusses killing slaves. Defenders will say "treasonous slaves" but still you can understand why saying respect the Anthem is a bridge to far for "some" due to those lyrics. That was my point regarding that element. Personally I stand, but I get why some might feel like not doing so.. It's the third of four verses. And your characterization is a very uncharitable one. Yes, Francis Scott Key was a slaveowner /racist, but it's definitely a reference to enemy troops (hirelings being mercenaries like the Germans that fought with the British in the Revolutionary War). It's either talking about the slaves that were fighting with the British for their freedom or the impressed sailors that were a reason for the war, but either way its talking about fighting British troops. "And where is that band who so vauntingly swore That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion, A home and a country, should leave us no more? Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slaveFrom the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave: And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave, O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Oct 7, 2016 13:42:37 GMT -5
I support our kids, our coach and our school. If the team chooses to do something and make some sort of statement (as a team!) and Georgetown endorses it ...then I am fine with it. If one kid however steps up on his own to make a statement...I think the message gets lost, its less impactful and can be counterproductive.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Oct 7, 2016 14:01:01 GMT -5
Absolutely not...respect the flag, the anthem and those who sacrificed to preserve them...express your differences elsewhere in a civil manner. It's not about the flag though. It's about what was written under that flag and who wrote it. Do you get it? There are many members that have said this is what we are fighting for our freedom and rights. How can you respect a country that never respected who you are? We can only be "ignorant" for so long. It's time to wake up and learn to know the truth about this country. The national anthem is a celebration of slavery. Look I'm african in america and you may not be so I'll leave it there but do educate yourself s4hoyas. theintercept.com/2016/08/28/colin-kaepernick-is-righter-than-you-know-the-national-anthem-is-a-celebration-of-slavery/Glide, while I don't want to start a tangential argument, the portion of that article that tries to define the War of 1812 as a pure act of aggression by the US coupled with an attempted land-grab of Canada is wildly inaccurate. The US declared war after England refused to halt its practice of unilaterally seizing US Merchant Marine ships and forcing or impressing the crews to serve in the British Navy in its wars against France, coupled with related British laws restricting US trade with France. The US (foolishly it turned out) believed that limited British forces in Canada provided the best opportunity for quick victories that could force England to abandon those policies.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 14:05:16 GMT -5
Imo I don't think you should wallow in the past but you can't talk about the future without acknowledging it's existence and effect on our current status. To be clear though, the protests are NOT about the song or the flag just pointing out a fact. The last verse discusses killing slaves. Defenders will say "treasonous slaves" but still you can understand why saying respect the Anthem is a bridge to far for "some" due to those lyrics. That was my point regarding that element. Personally I stand, but I get why some might feel like not doing so.. It's the third of four verses. And your characterization is a very uncharitable one. Yes, Francis Scott Key was a slaveowner /racist, but it's definitely a reference to enemy troops (hirelings being mercenaries like the Germans that fought with the British in the Revolutionary War). It's either talking about the slaves that were fighting with the British for their freedom or the impressed sailors that were a reason for the war, but either way its talking about fighting British troops. "And where is that band who so vauntingly swore That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion, A home and a country, should leave us no more? Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slaveFrom the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave: And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave, O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave." I'm reading the lyrics and your description and I'm not quite sure what I got wrong.. The slaves in question were American slaves who fought with the brits because the British guaranteed their freedom if they won. Thats why I used the word "treasonous". The lyrics say and im paraphrasing, no refuge could save them from the gloom of the grave.. Either way that's not what the protests are about obviously so we can agree to disagree on this minor point.
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Loyal Hoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Oct 7, 2016 14:40:40 GMT -5
We the Hoyas of Georgetown, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do take a knee to remind our fellow citizens that these blessings are still not shared as broadly and deeply as they should be and that we still have more perfecting to do.
What could be more patriotic than that?
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Post by trillesthoya on Oct 7, 2016 15:11:11 GMT -5
Our country does horrible, horrible things to people domestically and internationally under the guise of protecting national security and maintaining order. If Coach Thompson and the team decide to take a stance against this injustice in a respectful manner, then I'll be right there kneeling with them.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Oct 7, 2016 15:17:27 GMT -5
The granddaddy of all anthem protests was, of course, the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City, where Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised a black gloved hand during the playing of the US anthem as part of the medal ceremony. Whether you agreed or not (ok, most people here were not even born) with the statement made by the 200m runners, many in this country did not agree at the time, and Tommie and John were sent home. During that time the outcry against that statement was more, IMO, than the protests of the conditions at the time in this country, especially in the South, where in the 60's we had assignations and bombings of African-American churches (e.g., four teen age girls died in the 1963 in one of these bombings). So it became a matter of perspective: what is more tragic, the bombings and killings or the simple protest?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 7, 2016 15:39:04 GMT -5
This screams of "have your protest just don't bother me with it". That mentality is why you will see more of it. The most hurtful part for this African American is when issues like these arise, there's a large portion of the public who think these issues are made up, false, or not warranted.. I would read up on the the lyrics of the 3rd verse of the National Anthem as well , not exactly words every black person can get behind. You can respect our Military, love our flag, and still protest for more equality in our society. I don't see how one is contradictory to the other.. #BARZ How kneeling became synonymous with disrespecting the military is mind boggling. This isn't North Korea. The people in our armed services actually fight, in part, for our freedom to protest in such ways. Student-athletes don't surrender their constitutional rights the second they sign a letter of intent. It's funny how much we revel in the history of this country's great rebellions and protests against the establishment when it's white faces attached to such events, but detest them so much when it's brown faces attached to them. As Arsenio Hall used to say, it's one of those things that make you go hmmmmmm ... With all that said, I'd be 100% supportive. Mind boggling? Really? If you think that then you are trying really hard not to understand that position.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Oct 7, 2016 15:42:15 GMT -5
Absolutely not...respect the flag, the anthem and those who sacrificed to preserve them...express your differences elsewhere in a civil manner. "In a civil manner", really?
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Oct 7, 2016 19:26:18 GMT -5
I think people can kneel away and protest all they want. At this point it's nothing more than a spectacle that has already lost its purpose.
Kaepernick doing it created a conversation and now it's a circus that doesn't have a purpose.
If I'm an athlete that wants change, I'd find something original that would create a conversation as this does nothing other than create a debate about someone's right to protest which wasn't the point of the protest.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 7, 2016 19:31:22 GMT -5
I have no idea if the coach or school would support this, but my general feeling is to keep politics out of sports. Our students have ample ways to express themselves on campus (including the basketball team), and I think those avenues are better place for that than a basketball court. But, I know there will be many who disagree. Is this about politics or social justice. Is this about real life? I hear you, but the basketball court is how they feel they can capture the nation's attention on the injustices and social issues that still plague a group of people in this country. Thanks for your response. I hear you though. For the record, I support our team and will support our team regardless of whether they do any protest. I agree they've got a right to free thought and if they think it through and do something, it won't upset me (I'm confident JT3 wouldn't allow it to be done in a non thoughtful manner). And obviously the sources of the protest raise real issues many of them have likely experienced.
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1789
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by 1789 on Oct 7, 2016 21:48:15 GMT -5
I guess it depends on what it is for. The "I can't breathe" was specific. However, if it doesn't send a message I don't know how effective of a demonstration that would be. But in general , I have no problem with students using a college basketball game to demonstrate. In fact I have a lot more respect for college athletes than I do for pros when they do it. It strikes me as a little ridiculous, shallow, and self-promoting when one and done multi-millionaires are attempting to protest. While students have the resources of a university community, administrators, and coaches to help them work through what they are hoping to accomplish.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Oct 7, 2016 22:32:50 GMT -5
The Hoyas could do some bad things and retain 100% of my support. As political protest is not a bad thing, the answer is simple. In fact, they would probably accumulate more support. Haven't we all learned thru the years that the voices of these young men can be eloquent and enlightening?
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Oct 7, 2016 22:50:10 GMT -5
The Hoyas could do some bad things and retain 100% of my support. As political protest is not a bad thing, the answer is simple. In fact, they would probably accumulate more support. Haven't we all learned thru the years that the voices of these young men can be eloquent and enlightening? seaweed is feeling good tonight as his circular statement exhibits. What?
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Oct 8, 2016 5:41:45 GMT -5
This screams of "have your protest just don't bother me with it". That mentality is why you will see more of it. The most hurtful part for this African American when issues like these arise there'e a large portion of the public who think these issues are made up or not warranted.. I would read up on the the lyrics of the 3rd verse of the National Anthem as well , not exactly words every black person can get behind.. To me, the anthem and the flag represent ideals that we strive for, and clearly have not always attained. And yes, it also honors sacrifices that have been made along the way. It does not validate every action America has ever taken. I understand the point being made, but I wish people would look forward, not backward. And yes, I know that simplifies a very complicated issue. Why do you think a protest is looking backwards?
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