Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Sept 16, 2016 18:32:12 GMT -5
Let's compare the bball recruiting and record over the past few years with the track and field program. Both suffer at the expense (negative recruiting) of other universities, bball's lack of success in the NCAAs and the track/XC teams lack of a track (they use a community track with 5 laps per mile with six lanes). And yet we have done great at our niche recruiting, i.e., few sprinters and almost no field eventers. We won a national championship with women XC a few years ago with an NCAA indoor DMR title last year and two Penn Relay titles. The men placed 10th in the NCAA XC meet last year with hopes of moving up this year PLUS two straight years with four guys running sub-4 minute miles in the same heat. So what is the difference? As I mentioned, we have very few of the athletes, who score big points at the NCAA outdoor meet - the aforementioned sprinters and field eventers. In track you can choose your niche and do quite well in it; basketball takes a concerted effort. I think in both sports the state universities dominate (Nova being the exception to prove the rule last year). Part of the problem in recruiting track vis a vis bball is the domination of the AAU summer series of tourneys and I think factors in our poor performance in recruiting. There are so many personalities involved in the AAU program that, I think, skew the system. Or NOT.
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Post by trillesthoya on Sept 16, 2016 18:34:43 GMT -5
You know what generally does fix recruiting woes though? Ask St. John's. How did a team that consistently finished in the bottom of the big east the couple years with no tourney runs right the ship? Enter Chris Mullin, exit Steve Lavin. St. John's was 8-24 last year... reread my last post
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Sept 16, 2016 23:12:20 GMT -5
St. John's shouldn't be brought up until they do something. Until then it is all speculation.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 17, 2016 0:08:06 GMT -5
McDermott has had a nice run on the recruiting trail the past 2 seasons, what has Creighton won lately? To me it's not about winning in my view.. 1) Most of their impact people have been transfers. Yes they've signed a few top 100 recruits lately, but so far those guys haven't made an impact on the court. 2) They were basically in the situation of being a new coach in their move to the BE it's like a redo where you can get kids easily to buy in. 3) They won a lot of games their first year of the Big East and had the national player of the year. But isn't the main point that he's getting it done? He/his staff pulled two 4* HS kids by February of this year, now any other kids he gets for this class will be gravy in my view.. There are plenty of non blue blood programs that are having success on the recruiting trail, why can't Gtown have similar success to Gonzaga? I don't mind the staff chasing highly regarded kids but they must have back-up plans in place if it doesn't work out, they never seem to have that..
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birdman
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Post by birdman on Sept 17, 2016 7:08:05 GMT -5
St. John's was 8-24 last year... reread my last post Look at Lavin's recruiting classes. Recruiting was never Lavin's problem at St. John's.
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HarbinHoya
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Post by HarbinHoya on Sept 17, 2016 9:14:17 GMT -5
Three questions/comments about recruiting:
1) It seems that we never have multiple recruits visit on one weekend during the off season? During the year for games or MM I get that we have a bunch, but wouldn't it be a selling point to bring folks in with other top players they might be playing with? Maybe I'm wrong on this front, it just seems its mostly one offs. I always think about the movie Blue Chips (recruiting violations aside) that several of these guys especially from the DMV like the idea of playing together.
2) Having watched Allen Iverson's passionate and emotional HOF Induction, it just makes me wonder if Coach Thompson "saved his life" why we don't have more former player and superstar interaction with our recruits? Is this not allowed per NCAA rules? How far might it have gone with Lykes or another top player to have AI spend the day with them or sell them on being the next him? I feel like for all our history, outside of seeing some former players on campus or down at Kenner, they don't really go to bat for us on the recruiting trail or on the donation side that much. (Caveat: I know some players gave to Thompson center, but overall our alumni contribution is weak for the number of NBA players we have produced.)
3) Do college basketball team employ saber metrics in recruiting? I don't think Gtown should waste any time quite frankly chasing 5 star players? But why can't we find underrated 3 stars that out perform their rankings? There must be better evaluation tools to find skill sets we need. Its amazing to me that we haven't had a decent underrated point guard since John Wallace/Chris Wright type guy. Its really felt like a long time.
Overall, I have been pleased to see the big investment the university has put into its program with the Thompson Center and with recent hiring of assistants, so I'm excited to see the next few seasons, but we seem to capitalize far less off of our history and pedigree, as well as being the subject of like 10 30 for 30s and on TV commercials a ton to have this little name recognition and bounce from those efforts.
Be interested in what others think on the above.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 17, 2016 13:12:33 GMT -5
It looks to me like Hayes is the only HS recruited player on the current roster that signed in the spring time..
The next closest to a spring signing would be Kaleb, he signed Jan, 15th 2015.. You have to go back to Otto & Whittington in 2011 to find springtime HS commits..
Iirc Mulmore is JT3's 1st Juco kid & Pryor is his 1st 5th year transfer..
Seeing info like this is why I don't have a lot of faith in waiting until spring to look for kids, the program doesn't seem to have a lot of success during that time..
If they are going to go this route then they better start establishing targets now because I'd bet good money other programs are already recruiting every SRD out there..
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 17, 2016 22:34:30 GMT -5
There are plenty of non blue blood programs that are having success on the recruiting trail, why can't Gtown have similar success to Gonzaga? I don't mind the staff chasing highly regarded kids but they must have back-up plans in place if it doesn't work out, they never seem to have that.. This sort of proves my point about winning. Gonzaga wins their conference almost every year, and they have an Elite 8 and Sweet Sixteen the last two seasons, and they've made the tournament every year since 1999, and we've missed 2 of 3 years. If we have that success on the court, we'd have fine recruiting too.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 18, 2016 1:12:08 GMT -5
Seeing info like this is why I don't have a lot of faith in waiting until spring to look for kids, the program doesn't seem to have a lot of success during that time.. That may be changing. IIRC, before this season, JT3's spring college/transfer recruits were: Akoy A., J. Vaughn, Josh S. and P. Ewing. Akoy, Josh and Julian came in to fill positions where we were lacking a starter or depth at the time. Patrick realized the mistake of his Indiana decision. None came from JUCO or as a mature, grad school recruit. It has taken JT3 a while to realize that it can only help if you get the right, mature players and not ruin team chemistry. Better late (after 10 years) than never with a stubborn coach... Congrats to him for the great '16 spring recruiting! I'm sure it can happen again next year. There will be a lot of p.t. to offer without PRyor, Hayes, Reggie, White and any early departures. That's not to say that we're done with '17 h.s. recruits. Then for '18 recruits, if we look at the roster for '17-'18 on paper, we're going to have a strong, balanced (by position, not class) group that can win into March, which could be a major selling point for '18 five-star recruits. IMO, that roster will have Ike as a senior because it will be too difficult for him to shine into 3-&-done status this year with all the offense around him. If he does, we win the Championship. I see Ike as the fourth or fifth offensive option behind Pryor, Peak, Hayes/Govan, and Marcus/Mulmore (if we play with 3 guards). We're loaded!!!
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Sept 18, 2016 8:17:20 GMT -5
When we discuss the health of Georgetown recruiting shouldn't we be separating the JUCO/5thyear/transfer pool from the high school pool. While JT3 did an oustanding job getting Mulmore, Pryor and Agau is the need for the former pool an indictment on the latter? I am all for adding an extra, complementary piece but the health of our recruiting should be judged by our successes and failures with the high school pool and so far, recruiting remains in the infirmary.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 18, 2016 10:39:02 GMT -5
There are plenty of non blue blood programs that are having success on the recruiting trail, why can't Gtown have similar success to Gonzaga? I don't mind the staff chasing highly regarded kids but they must have back-up plans in place if it doesn't work out, they never seem to have that.. This sort of proves my point about winning. Gonzaga wins their conference almost every year, and they have an Elite 8 and Sweet Sixteen the last two seasons, and they've made the tournament every year since 1999, and we've missed 2 of 3 years. If we have that success on the court, we'd have fine recruiting too. It's hard to argue with this thought 2003 but when I look back at Gonzagas roster over the years there's nothing special about them except for the fact that they've had a lot of good ball players on his team.. Not a lot of pros mind you but a lot of good college players.. Much of the Gonzagas success over the years can be heavily attributed to taking on projects & if they're not ready to contribute they red-shirt them.. They also recruit internationally very well, something Gtown doesn't even dabble in.. My point is that Few doesn't seem to spend a lot of time/effort chasing 4+ & 5* kids the way JT3 does, Few seems to have a plan & he sticks to it..
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 18, 2016 10:45:52 GMT -5
When we discuss the health of Georgetown recruiting shouldn't we be separating the JUCO/5thyear/transfer pool from the high school pool. While JT3 did an oustanding job getting Mulmore, Pryor and Agau is the need for the former pool an indictment on the latter? I am all for adding an extra, complementary piece but the health of our recruiting should be judged by our successes and failures with the high school pool and so far, recruiting remains in the infirmary. Very well stated Alto, this is exactly how I feel about recruiting..
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Post by bicentennial on Sept 18, 2016 11:05:28 GMT -5
I think there has been a fundamental change that has occurred over the last 5-10 years. In the more distant past, transfers were usually Sophomores and Junior who had received little playing time. I believe both Vaughn and Agau would fall into this category with injury often limiting their playing time. Some were injured, others were just not living up to their perceived potential in whatever system the coach employed. The number of skilled players with a 5th year of eligibility who are transferring after 3 or 4 years at a school appears to be increasing. This is an interesting pool since if they have received enough credits to graduate from their first school, they now can play without sitting out for a year. Looking forward this group of players may allow the Hoyas to not leave open roster spots vacant, a disappointing trend we have seen in the past 5 years of JTIII teams. If this pool continues to increase, coaches will be well served to fill open roster positions to remain at 13 active players. As for the inability to recruit Freshman, this will undoubtedly become a massive issue by this time next year. If JTIII and his new assistants cannot close and get signings of highly rated players by this time next year, Georgetown will be in real trouble by the start of 2018. I tend to agree with those who believe that winning may be the solution. Unfortunately, winning needs to be not just in the pre-season and Big East but also in the post-season. If JTIII teams continue to fail in the first weekend of the NCAA tournament, other coaches will undoubtedly continue to use this against GU. Clearly if the post season losing can be stopped, the Hoyas should be in a good position to resume recruiting top level players particularly now that our facilities are on par with most other programs.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 18, 2016 12:24:29 GMT -5
Much of the Gonzagas success over the years can be heavily attributed to taking on projects & if they're not ready to contribute they red-shirt them.. They also recruit internationally very well, something Gtown doesn't even dabble in.. My point is that Few doesn't seem to spend a lot of time/effort chasing 4+ & 5* kids the way JT3 does, Few seems to have a plan & he sticks to it.. He has a plan and sticks to it. On the other hand, JT3 suppossedly is changing offensive styles, which means he was recruiting for a certain type of player, he failed and now he's looking for other types. For example, when was the last time he looked for and got a "sharpshooter" with other limited skills? Reggie. Would Reggie be recruited now? Another example, why recruit offensively challenged players like Hops and Bowen when you're playing the PrinceTown? Square peg, round hole. Almost all of the head coaches don't have an opportunity to fail and change styles. JT3 does. He's a veteran now. There's no excuse. Pick a style and plan that work, and recruit for it. For whatever reason, JT3's definition of recruiting does not include international recruiting. Poor, very poor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2016 12:27:55 GMT -5
This sort of proves my point about winning. Gonzaga wins their conference almost every year, and they have an Elite 8 and Sweet Sixteen the last two seasons, and they've made the tournament every year since 1999, and we've missed 2 of 3 years. If we have that success on the court, we'd have fine recruiting too. It's hard to argue with this thought 2003 but when I look back at Gonzagas roster over the years there's nothing special about them except for the fact that they've had a lot of good ball players on his team.. Not a lot of pros mind you but a lot of good college players.. Much of the Gonzagas success over the years can be heavily attributed to taking on projects & if they're not ready to contribute they red-shirt them.. They also recruit internationally very well, something Gtown doesn't even dabble in.. My point is that Few doesn't seem to spend a lot of time/effort chasing 4+ & 5* kids the way JT3 does, Few seems to have a plan & he sticks to it.. Zags were ahead of the curve on international recruits. They found a niche there and used it to max benefit. Same with Iowa St and transfers I always thought Georgetown should do more pursuing international prospects especially at the guard spot. One of the major reasons is Euro guards seem to be more comfortable in that team ball setting that our offense thrives on. Anyways, guess that's a bit off topic but lots of interesting thoughts being shared here
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Sept 18, 2016 13:11:18 GMT -5
Historically I have been high on JT3 because of his strong recruiting. Now that I can't reasonably look to that as a strong suit, I'm worried. I'll probably return to my old opinion immediately if we land either brown or waters tbh. I'm not trying to single out any particular poster, and the perspectives in this thread are interesting enough. Still, that quote above sort of encapsulates why I can't wrap my mind around following recruiting sometimes. It's essentially saying: a) Georgetown used to recruit well b) Georgetown doesn't recruit well any more and I'm worried c) But if we get one Top 100 recruit we're currently interested in, I'm changing my mind. I guess that's a normal message board thing though...I reckon a lot of us would welcome the opportunity to change our mind because of a commitment.
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Post by trillesthoya on Sept 18, 2016 13:31:07 GMT -5
Historically I have been high on JT3 because of his strong recruiting. Now that I can't reasonably look to that as a strong suit, I'm worried. I'll probably return to my old opinion immediately if we land either brown or waters tbh. I'm not trying to single out any particular poster, and the perspectives in this thread are interesting enough. Still, that quote above sort of encapsulates why I can't wrap my mind around following recruiting sometimes. It's essentially saying: a) Georgetown used to recruit well b) Georgetown doesn't recruit well any more and I'm worried c) But if we get one Top 100 recruit we're currently interested in, I'm changing my mind. I guess that's a normal message board thing though...I reckon a lot of us would welcome the opportunity to change our mind because of a commitment. A) Georgetown used to recruit moderately well B) Georgetown hasn't landed a top-100 recruit since Jessie Govan in 2014, despite having attempted to land dozens, and I'm worried. C) If Georgetown does land a top-100 recruit, my belief regarding JT3's current perception amongst recruits will be proven wrong, and therefore I will probably change my opinion to be less pessimistic.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 18, 2016 14:21:33 GMT -5
Much of the Gonzagas success over the years can be heavily attributed to taking on projects & if they're not ready to contribute they red-shirt them.. They also recruit internationally very well, something Gtown doesn't even dabble in.. My point is that Few doesn't seem to spend a lot of time/effort chasing 4+ & 5* kids the way JT3 does, Few seems to have a plan & he sticks to it.. He has a plan and sticks to it. On the other hand, JT3 suppossedly is changing offensive styles, which means he was recruiting for a certain type of player, he failed and now he's looking for other types. For example, when was the last time he looked for and got a "sharpshooter" with other limited skills? Reggie. Would Reggie be recruited now? Another example, why recruit offensively challenged players like Hops and Bowen when you're playing the PrinceTown? Square peg, round hole. Almost all of the head coaches don't have an opportunity to fail and change styles. JT3 does. He's a veteran now. There's no excuse. Pick a style and plan that work, and recruit for it. For whatever reason, JT3's definition of recruiting does not include international recruiting. Poor, very poor. I'm not sold on the changing of offensive styles, saying you want to play faster doesn't mean you want to change styles in my view.. I can't be revisionist & say I wasn't high on Reggie but I didn't think he'd play the 3 spot either, I hoped he'd be used like Wragge from Creighton was a few years back.. Your points on Hops & Bowen are well taken, I definitely believe that recruiting should be heavily weighted to fit/style..
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 18, 2016 14:48:23 GMT -5
a) Georgetown used to recruit well b) Georgetown doesn't recruit well any more and I'm worried c) But if we get one Top 100 recruit we're currently interested in, I'm changing my mind. a) Georgetown used to recruit LOCALLY well b) Georgetown doesn't recruit LOCALLY well any more Every great Georgetown team in the Big East era has, at its core, a local/regional base: the kids that knew each other. played each other and most importantly, the kind of kids the coaches knew up close, not in a AAU quadruple-header or a video. Not all were stars but they formed a core to build on. 1980 had seven: the Duren brothers, Shelton. Eric Smith, Hancock, Bullis, Spriggs 1982 had eight: Jones, the three Smiths (Eric, Gene, Vadi), Martin, Hancock, Blue, Spriggs 1984 had eight: Gene Smith, Martin, Jackson, Wingate, Williams, Graham, Dairsow, Dalton 1987 had five: Winston, Charles Smith, Tillmon, Williams, Jefferson 1989 had six: Winston, Charles Smith, Tillmon, Thompson, Jefferson, Turner 2007 had five: Summers, Crawford, Green, Ewing, Hibbert 2016-17 has two: Tre Campbell and Marcus Derrickson. The story of Georgetown's flagging brand is in its "reaches": a high schooler in Stephen Domingo, a baffling choice in Brandon Bolden, even a Moses Ayegba. (I'd even consider that Josh Smith, given his reputation at UCLA, was a reach.) Because over the last three years, the DC/Baltimore area has produced top 100 recruits in Melo Trimble, Dion Wiley, Allonzo Trier, Franklin Howard, Marcus Derickson, Bryant Crawford, Markelle Fultz, V.J. King, and Anthony Cowan. What do they all have in common? All but one are playing somewhere other than Georgetown.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Sept 18, 2016 16:31:05 GMT -5
Good point, DFW, but there is a chicken-egg question inherent in your post. Are the Hoyas choosing to go after projects because that is who they really want, or are they going that route because a lot of local kids are not interested? I think it is a bit of both...
I am all for taking projects, by the way, but there is no question that involves lots of risk.
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