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Post by krukster201 on Sept 16, 2016 10:00:59 GMT -5
Listen , like most of us on this board .. I have nothing but love for this program (since my childhood) and stuck by that through all ups and downs. We all want to win and see the Hoyas succeed. I may come off as harsh at times or a negative energy , but it's simply out of frustration. At this point in time , it feels like we're trending down. Last years injuries and poor play don't help the cause at all. I've said this plenty of times , the talent is there and I strongly believe that we've had solid teams that underachieved greatly (including last season). We simply can't afford to miss the NCAA's and have poor showings in our conf tournament. If you actually believe that winning doesn't cure or help with recruiting , more power to you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion , that's usually what message boards are for. For some time this program has had to deal with NEGATIVE recruiting towards it (not only this program .. but trust and believe this is FACT!} As some may know , I have ties with the St. Anthony's H.S program from my time in Jersey City. I've seen and heard rumblings but chose to keep things to myself. Certain things are better off left off these boards and it's not in my character to float rumors and gossip. Let's just say , Georgetown simply can't get by with its tradition any more. Here are a couple things to keep in mind regarding our current situation (these are my thoughts and opinions , I'd love for the rest of the board to add to this discussion even if it's negative or you disagree):
1) The new facilities are a huge plus and a step in the right direction. It hasn't helped yet which is understandable , but it will.
2) Same can be said for the new assistants as they need time to get situated to a new Home and approach in recruiting.
3) The Offense .. this has been discussed heavy on this board. It's an issue simply because of our recent failures (WINS) When we were winning it wasn't an issue. You have to keep in mind that we also had Players that trusted the Offense/JT3 and all knew their roles. That bunch produced NBA players that are still in the league. The talk of tweaking the offense will help , but show and prove on the court. This season is very important going forward recruiting wise. 4) Conference Tournament - to be the best , you have to beat the best. I wanna see Hunger , Desire and Fight til the end. "We will not lose!!" Approach. For 40 mins and not a half. Winning the B.E.T is a huge accomplishment and lights a fire for the NCAA's.
5) Making the NCAA's .. this is huge for many reason's and should always be a priority or goal. Recruits watch this and take notes. a) getting past the first and second round esp games we are expected and should win. A MUST .. losing early as a 2 seed is no bueno b) it only takes one successful trip to the sweet 16 or beyond to bring back that shine to a program. We've all seen the difference a long run in the tourney can make in recruiting/coaching.
My final thought..
We've missed out on plenty of recruits that turned out to be good if not great players (some we dodged bullets) , it's part of the game. We've also had a few go our way. To many to name on both fronts. The Hoyas have done well with kids that WANT to be HOYAS and come in with the mentality that they will do what is asked of them to help the team succeed. Some rated higher then others. To me rankings mean nothing. Sure we'd all love to have McDonalds All-Americans walk through our doors (and we've had a few since JT3 arrived) .. but right now we can't compete with the bigger schools in that category. It starts with successful seasons and winning. Nova is a good example of a team that when well coached , play hungry , feed into the system and Trust each other .. MAKE THINGS HAPPEN. In my eyes , Pryor and Peak are special players. Jessie , Marcus and IKE are possible break out players with tons of talent. Having Bradley back is a great thing both for leadership , experience and depth. Then we have players that if they play to their potential and do the little things , we can make some noise. John may be a blessing in disguise and Trey will earn his time. Jagan will have his ups and downs but will certainly be a plus just as Kaleb will. Akoy , Reggie and Tre need to play their roles and each and every day they must push each other. The Staff (mainly JT3) should have a chip on their shoulders and be eager to silence the critics. We have the pieces and the talent to succeed this year. Will it unfold into a special season? Time will tell. I expect a huge season from our boys and look forward to a surprising outcome. With that said.. I look forward to the boards responses. Enjoy your weekend as I'm focused on the count down to College BBall and my Hoyas. Things will go our way eventually.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 16, 2016 10:03:55 GMT -5
Thanks Krukster. Appreciate the insights.
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Post by trillesthoya on Sept 16, 2016 10:19:06 GMT -5
Great post Krukster. Appreciate your insight and positivity.
One thing though. I'm not necessarily in the "winning cures all camp," and I hope someone will be able to prove me wrong so I can be happy and optimistic about this teams future again.
Outside of the national tournament winners, what are some teams where making it to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 solved all their recruiting woes? I think if we look back at the Hoya teams over the past decade, a large part of what enabled us to get star studded classes was the perception Georgetown (and JT3 in particular) held: coming off the final four it was this is a young coach who's going to live up to his fathers name and be a consistent tourney threat. That perception was key: it wasn't just that hey, they made a final four, I want to go here! It was in my opinion more so that this is a young talented and exciting coach, and there is plenty more tourney success in store for this Georgetown team.
Fast forward to 2016. Having never made it to the second weekend since that final four run, our perception is the polar opposite. JT3 and Georgetown is viewed as a consistent disappointment, if they don't get bounced out of the first round they either lose to an above average team in the second round or don't even make it to the tournament. That doesn't leave any room for hope or excitement. On campus there is little to no buzz around our basketball team anymore, in the media the Hoyas are an afterthought. Recruits are smart, but at the end of the day they want the glam and glitz like everyone else, and Georgetown's stale "at least we have a rich tradition" approach isn't instilling too much excitement anymore.
So let's say our year this year is like our year two years ago: great regular season, expected but uninspiring post season. If we basically just have a re-do of the 2014-2015 season, there will be no change in our troubled recruiting. Even if we make it to the Elite 8, I don't see any reason to think that we'll all of a sudden become an exciting team to play for again. Every coach has outlier years, and unless we make it to the Elite 8/Final 4 consistently over the next four years, there won't be any real improvement.
You know what generally does fix recruiting woes though? Ask St. John's. How did a team that consistently finished in the bottom of the big east the couple years with no tourney runs right the ship? Enter Chris Mullin, exit Steve Lavin.
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lucky
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Post by lucky on Sept 16, 2016 11:59:28 GMT -5
I'm going to float out something that has been on my mind for a couple of weeks now: Does anyone think JTIII has lost his taste for recruiting as his father did some 2 decades ago?
I ask this simply because I'm seeking answers for a particularly bad stretch in recruiting ( I am one who thinks the 2016 effort was poor, my personal opinion). During the August hot period JTIII was broadcasted all over social media giving media tours in the new practice facility and meanwhile targets were committing daily to other universities.
I guess I'm wondering out loud here, but curious what others think.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Sept 16, 2016 12:17:41 GMT -5
Wow, trillest with a negative JTIII post. Again. I am stunned.
St. John's sucked last year. Let's wait and see how their recruits pan out before we credit Mullins with "turning it around".
We absolutely need significant success both in the regular and the post season to become a factor in recruiting. Nobody disputes that. But 4 straight years in the Elite 8/ Final Four? A ridiculous statement.
That said - I do agree that without big improvement the next couple of years the grumblings are apt to become a roar. Hopefully the coach acknowledges that, and will be able to do something about it.
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hoya1984
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Post by hoya1984 on Sept 16, 2016 13:49:30 GMT -5
Georgetown's Basketball Program can not wait for a couple of years. Palpable change needs to happen immediately.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Sept 16, 2016 14:05:42 GMT -5
Georgetown's Basketball Program can not wait for a couple of years. Palpable change needs to happen immediately. You mean our uniforms? Our mascot? Cheerleaders? Please expound.
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hoya1984
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Post by hoya1984 on Sept 16, 2016 14:28:37 GMT -5
All of the above.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 16, 2016 14:43:51 GMT -5
There are 4 ways to get top 100 recruits:
From easiest to hardest:
1) be a new coach at the school with lots of playing time to offer.
2) have a special connection with the recruit I.e family member or the like.
3) cheat
4) have a proven track record of success (on the court and sending kids to the NBA).
I do think a single run in the NCAAs will turn things dramatically in our favor. We already have the early successes to point to that would show its not a fluke.
Now there's ways to get top 100 quality players who aren't in the top 100 and that usually involves being better at scouting than everyone else and luck. It's not easy. Beyond scouting which is difficult enough you have to be lucky that no one else sees what you do as well and have to have the ability to coach the player up. Not saying a coach shouldn't be able to do that but it's not as easy as some make it out to be.
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Post by trillesthoya on Sept 16, 2016 14:58:13 GMT -5
Wow, trillest with a negative JTIII post. Again. I am stunned. St. John's sucked last year. Let's wait and see how their recruits pan out before we credit Mullins with "turning it around". We absolutely need significant success both in the regular and the post season to become a factor in recruiting. Nobody disputes that. But 4 straight years in the Elite 8/ Final Four? A ridiculous statement. That said - I do agree that without big improvement the next couple of years the grumblings are apt to become a roar. Hopefully the coach acknowledges that, and will be able to do something about it. Historically I have been high on JT3 because of his strong recruiting. Now that I can't reasonably look to that as a strong suit, I'm worried. I'll probably return to my old opinion immediately if we land either brown or waters tbh. When I said "right the ship" regarding St. John's I was referring to their recent strong recruiting classes despite their failures throughout the season. I think it's reasonable to say that a big part of that sucess is that recruits are excited to play for Mullin, a former NBA star that seems to relate well with his players and creates high hopes for the team's future. Elite 8's aren't magic for recruiting. Notre Dame reached the Elite 8 two years in a row and thus far have been unable to pull in any impressive players outside of Temple Gibbs. It would probably be more useful if there was some sort of objective analysis done of how making the Sweet 16/Elite 8/Final Four impacts recruiting for non-blue blood teams, but just off the top of my head I can't really think of a team that landed impressive recruits as a direct result of making it that far. Winning the national tournament, maybe, but to be honest I don't think we're remotely close to being that good this year. My point is that in order to fix recruiting, a coach needs to either win consistently over an extended period of time (as in not just one outlier year) or do something that creates a sort of buzz around the team and raises people's expectations. A new practice center probably isn't enough to generate that buzz, considering now we're only on par with everyone else. Our pitch can no longer be yay tradition bigs allen iverson ewing etc, no one is buying it anymore. If a new offense/new assistant coaches are enough to create excitement around the team then I'll be overjoyed, but for now I'm pessimistic.
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Sept 16, 2016 14:58:45 GMT -5
This season is definitely the most critical of JTIII's tenure. We have to both win big and play a style of basketball that is much more attractive to modern recruits (as well as more effective given modern rule enforcement). The pieces are in place - give JTIII and his staff credit for bringing in 3 guys who can make immediate contributions to both winning and a more recruiting/officiating friendly style of plan. Now it is on the coaches as much as the players - can they coach the talent up to the level of performance they appear to have the potential to achieve?
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Sept 16, 2016 15:01:59 GMT -5
There are 4 ways to get top 100 recruits: From easiest to hardest: 1) be a new coach at the school with lots of playing time to offer. 2) have a special connection with the recruit I.e family member or the like. 3) cheat 4) have a proven track record of success (on the court and sending kids to the NBA). I do think a single run in the NCAAs will turn things dramatically in our favor. We already have the early successes to point to that would show its not a fluke. Now there's ways to get top 100 quality players who aren't in the top 100 and that usually involves being better at scouting than everyone else and luck. It's not easy. Beyond scouting which is difficult enough you have to be lucky that no one else sees what you do as well and have to have the ability to coach the player up. Not saying a coach shouldn't be able to do that but it's not as easy as some make it out to be. Excellent post. The Hoyas, under III and before then, have gotten recruits via every method noted above besides "cheat." But as you stated, it is not easy. Multi-million-dollar organizations cannot always look at kids between the ages of 14 and 18 and make accurate projections of how good they will be in the future; it is a bit of a guessing game for everyone. I agree that one winning season would make things much easier, although I reject the false notion that there is some sort of problem or crisis at the moment.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 16, 2016 15:20:16 GMT -5
So let's say our year this year is like our year two years ago: great regular season, expected but uninspiring post season. If we basically just have a re-do of the 2014-2015 season, there will be no change in our troubled recruiting. Even if we make it to the Elite 8, I don't see any reason to think that we'll all of a sudden become an exciting team to play for again. Every coach has outlier years, and unless we make it to the Elite 8/Final 4 consistently over the next four years, there won't be any real improvement. You know what generally does fix recruiting woes though? Ask St. John's. How did a team that consistently finished in the bottom of the big east the couple years with no tourney runs right the ship? Enter Chris Mullin, exit Steve Lavin. If we made the Elite 8+ for four consecutive years, we'd be raking in McDonalds All Americans. It doesn't take much when it comes to NCAA tournament success to have an immediate impact. That's why our recruiting was so good after 2007. Yes, JT3 did have more buzz as a young and new coach then, which certainly helped, but recruits want to play on winning teams and it doesn't require much else. As for St. John's, Lavin didn't recruit badly when he first came to St. John's. The fact that many of his recruits were not eligible or transferred or had other problems shows that coaching is more than simply recruiting. Mullin's recruiting has been okay, and better than Lavin's last couple of years, but that's basically because Lavin didn't recruit anybody in that period. If you want to find an example of recruiting success, St. John's isn't the model (at least not yet - too early to say). Right now, I think the Georgetown name and tradition gets us very little. BUT, if we were to make an Elite 8, say, then suddenly the story is "Georgetown making a run!" and "Georgetown continues it's tradition of winning." The media loves to write comeback stories. Yes, we've been down in the NCAAs, which is why if we did get past the first weekend again, we would get all the more attention for it. Most simply, for a school like Georgetown, it's tough to recruit when you're not winning or cheating. Since we aren't going to do the latter, we better start winning.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 16, 2016 15:37:36 GMT -5
There are 4 ways to get top 100 recruits: From easiest to hardest: 1) be a new coach at the school with lots of playing time to offer. 2) have a special connection with the recruit I.e family member or the like. 3) cheat 4) have a proven track record of success (on the court and sending kids to the NBA). I do think a single run in the NCAAs will turn things dramatically in our favor. We already have the early successes to point to that would show its not a fluke. Now there's ways to get top 100 quality players who aren't in the top 100 and that usually involves being better at scouting than everyone else and luck. It's not easy. Beyond scouting which is difficult enough you have to be lucky that no one else sees what you do as well and have to have the ability to coach the player up. Not saying a coach shouldn't be able to do that but it's not as easy as some make it out to be. Butler does it very well.. Imo anyone can recruit top 100 kids, a big part of a staff's job is to scout & evaluate players..
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 16, 2016 16:10:19 GMT -5
So let's say our year this year is like our year two years ago: great regular season, expected but uninspiring post season. If we basically just have a re-do of the 2014-2015 season, there will be no change in our troubled recruiting. Even if we make it to the Elite 8, I don't see any reason to think that we'll all of a sudden become an exciting team to play for again. Every coach has outlier years, and unless we make it to the Elite 8/Final 4 consistently over the next four years, there won't be any real improvement. You know what generally does fix recruiting woes though? Ask St. John's. How did a team that consistently finished in the bottom of the big east the couple years with no tourney runs right the ship? Enter Chris Mullin, exit Steve Lavin. If we made the Elite 8+ for four consecutive years, we'd be raking in McDonalds All Americans. It doesn't take much when it comes to NCAA tournament success to have an immediate impact. That's why our recruiting was so good after 2007. Yes, JT3 did have more buzz as a young and new coach then, which certainly helped, but recruits want to play on winning teams and it doesn't require much else. As for St. John's, Lavin didn't recruit badly when he first came to St. John's. The fact that many of his recruits were not eligible or transferred or had other problems shows that coaching is more than simply recruiting. Mullin's recruiting has been okay, and better than Lavin's last couple of years, but that's basically because Lavin didn't recruit anybody in that period. If you want to find an example of recruiting success, St. John's isn't the model (at least not yet - too early to say). Right now, I think the Georgetown name and tradition gets us very little. BUT, if we were to make an Elite 8, say, then suddenly the story is "Georgetown making a run!" and "Georgetown continues it's tradition of winning." The media loves to write comeback stories. Yes, we've been down in the NCAAs, which is why if we did get past the first weekend again, we would get all the more attention for it. Most simply, for a school like Georgetown, it's tough to recruit when you're not winning or cheating. Since we aren't going to do the latter, we better start winning.McDermott has had a nice run on the recruiting trail the past 2 seasons, what has Creighton won lately? To me it's not about winning in my view..
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Sept 16, 2016 16:21:07 GMT -5
If we made the Elite 8+ for four consecutive years, we'd be raking in McDonalds All Americans. It doesn't take much when it comes to NCAA tournament success to have an immediate impact. That's why our recruiting was so good after 2007. Yes, JT3 did have more buzz as a young and new coach then, which certainly helped, but recruits want to play on winning teams and it doesn't require much else. As for St. John's, Lavin didn't recruit badly when he first came to St. John's. The fact that many of his recruits were not eligible or transferred or had other problems shows that coaching is more than simply recruiting. Mullin's recruiting has been okay, and better than Lavin's last couple of years, but that's basically because Lavin didn't recruit anybody in that period. If you want to find an example of recruiting success, St. John's isn't the model (at least not yet - too early to say). Right now, I think the Georgetown name and tradition gets us very little. BUT, if we were to make an Elite 8, say, then suddenly the story is "Georgetown making a run!" and "Georgetown continues it's tradition of winning." The media loves to write comeback stories. Yes, we've been down in the NCAAs, which is why if we did get past the first weekend again, we would get all the more attention for it. Most simply, for a school like Georgetown, it's tough to recruit when you're not winning or cheating. Since we aren't going to do the latter, we better start winning.McDermott has had a nice run on the recruiting trail the past 2 seasons, what has Creighton won lately? To me it's not about winning in my view.. 1) Most of their impact people have been transfers. Yes they've signed a few top 100 recruits lately, but so far those guys haven't made an impact on the court. 2) They were basically in the situation of being a new coach in their move to the BE it's like a redo where you can get kids easily to buy in. 3) They won a lot of games their first year of the Big East and had the national player of the year.
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SDHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,306
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Post by SDHoya on Sept 16, 2016 16:58:29 GMT -5
There are 4 ways to get top 100 recruits: From easiest to hardest: 1) be a new coach at the school with lots of playing time to offer. 2) have a special connection with the recruit I.e family member or the like. 3) cheat 4) have a proven track record of success (on the court and sending kids to the NBA). I do think a single run in the NCAAs will turn things dramatically in our favor. We already have the early successes to point to that would show its not a fluke. Now there's ways to get top 100 quality players who aren't in the top 100 and that usually involves being better at scouting than everyone else and luck. It's not easy. Beyond scouting which is difficult enough you have to be lucky that no one else sees what you do as well and have to have the ability to coach the player up. Not saying a coach shouldn't be able to do that but it's not as easy as some make it out to be. Bingo---as long as #1 and #3 are left off the table, we are left with family connections and success. AS JJJr. demonstrated, family connections only take you so far. One NCAA run does not a track record make, but it at a minimum re-centers that narrative, which to those not wearing grey colored lenses, is fairly bleak at the moment. Success is by no means the ONLY cure---but it is a cure all nonetheless, and at the moment the only one that is available.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Sept 16, 2016 17:04:46 GMT -5
If we made the Elite 8+ for four consecutive years, we'd be raking in McDonalds All Americans. It doesn't take much when it comes to NCAA tournament success to have an immediate impact. That's why our recruiting was so good after 2007. Yes, JT3 did have more buzz as a young and new coach then, which certainly helped, but recruits want to play on winning teams and it doesn't require much else. As for St. John's, Lavin didn't recruit badly when he first came to St. John's. The fact that many of his recruits were not eligible or transferred or had other problems shows that coaching is more than simply recruiting. Mullin's recruiting has been okay, and better than Lavin's last couple of years, but that's basically because Lavin didn't recruit anybody in that period. If you want to find an example of recruiting success, St. John's isn't the model (at least not yet - too early to say). Right now, I think the Georgetown name and tradition gets us very little. BUT, if we were to make an Elite 8, say, then suddenly the story is "Georgetown making a run!" and "Georgetown continues it's tradition of winning." The media loves to write comeback stories. Yes, we've been down in the NCAAs, which is why if we did get past the first weekend again, we would get all the more attention for it. Most simply, for a school like Georgetown, it's tough to recruit when you're not winning or cheating. Since we aren't going to do the latter, we better start winning.McDermott has had a nice run on the recruiting trail the past 2 seasons, what has Creighton won lately? To me it's not about winning in my view.. In terms of NCAA success? Sure it was minimal, but the Dougie era undoubtedly made Creighton a household name, and the recruiting they have had since then was built on the excitement of those teams. This year will also be pivotal for the elder McDermott, either he shows that he can win with players who aren't his son, or the loser narrative will kick in with him, and I guarantee you McDermott will either be out of Omaha, or Creighton's recruiting will suffer a sharp decline.
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Post by jctnhoya4ever on Sept 16, 2016 17:14:06 GMT -5
i think its jt3,the system is not working anymore.recruits also do not like to play in it.it worked at first but now all the coaches are used to it and they can stop it.for example how many times have our guys been pressured out near top of three point line and the opponet steps right in front of our passes for a layup on the other end.they know we run the offence and they know it as good as hoyas do.jt3 never changes it any.it almost seems to me like the coach rather run his system then to win.because he will say run it we have to run our stuff.it is not working and he is stubborn,so we will more than likely struggle.i hope i am wrong but see what the problem is.i am so tired wiyh good one year then underachieve the next.to much talent to be missing ncaas.the coach needs to try something else out. go hoyas.
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birdman
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Post by birdman on Sept 16, 2016 18:19:52 GMT -5
You know what generally does fix recruiting woes though? Ask St. John's. How did a team that consistently finished in the bottom of the big east the couple years with no tourney runs right the ship? Enter Chris Mullin, exit Steve Lavin. St. John's was 8-24 last year...
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