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Post by bicentennial on Sept 20, 2016 8:42:17 GMT -5
Changing the system to one where the team plays faster is necessary if only in response to the shot clock. Back when it was in existence introducing Hoya Fans to the new basketball metrics Hoya Prospectus did a feature on our team's scoring percentage by time left on the shot clock when a shot was taken. Back in 2007 and the years that followed our team scored a very high percentage in the first 7 seconds of the shot clock but an even higher percentage in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock. At the time this was explained as the first 7 seconds are when fast breaks occur after a shot and the last 5 seconds are when a patient offense has had the most time to create defensive mismatches. With 5 less seconds on the shot clock there is less time for the offense to create mismatches. Either JTIII will find a way to change his offense to get open opportunities earlier in the shot clock or our offense will continue failing. All too often last year, DSR and our other best players were forced to take shots in the last seconds of the shot clock despite being heavily covered. We would have lost even more games if DSR had not scored on a significant number of three point shots with a hand in his face. I have been watching Hoya Basketball for more than 20 years. Last year also had more shot clock violations than any other year I have watched Hoya Basketball.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 20, 2016 8:59:12 GMT -5
Wouldn't that mean admitting that he's failed or that it took him a stubborn 10 years to realize that something was not working (and yet he kept his job)? I think he will continue to be subtle about it (like he's done so far while tweaking the PrinceTown) and let the play speak for itself. Nothing about Pryor, Peak (without the reins) and Mulmore says Princeton. He should not "admit" that, because it is completely false hogwash. There is nothing to apologize for in any respect. If he has chosen to modify the offense, that is fine- but he should not approach it as something to tread carefully around. Coaches change systems at times. That is not an indictment of the old system. He has been subtle about it. Last year we did not see the Princeton (or a semi version of it) principles in display that much. Maybe it was the players who wouldn't pass (square peg, round hole) or the players who did not execute the movements or couldn't shoot consistently or missing White or Reggie never turning into a sharpshooter, etc... At no point did he say we had steered clear of the Princeton style or changed offenses. I think he'll say stufff like "we'll run more", "transition baskets, easy baskets", etc... I don't expect him to say we have abandoned the Princeton principles. My opinion. I'll respect yours. Time will tell.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 20, 2016 10:42:44 GMT -5
All due respect here. Fair point- I am not on the road with these guys! But clearly they are all over the place evaluating prospects. They nabbed Mosely right before the high majors started knocking, and won the battle for Mulmore by getting in early. Those are just two recent examples; overall, I think III and his various staffs have a well-deserved reputation as professional and dedicated recruiters. I do NOT think the Hoyas are losing out on recruits because of any apathy by the staff. Just my humble opinion. I moved the conversation from the 2018 thread to help prevent thread jacking..As you stated in your post, all due respect but I think you're being revisionist with these examples.. Iirc Jagan was winding down his recruitment before Gtown got involved, it could easily be argued that Gtown played the spoiler in his recruitment.. They offered later than any team in his final list.. According to an article posted in Mulmore's thread it took about 24 hours for him to get an offer, it has to be noted too that this offer was based on watching him workout once.. Not exactly an example of diligent recruiting imo.. In fairness, I like the addition of Mulmore.. Does the staff work hard, yes.. Do they work as hard as some of the other programs in the BE? That I'm not so sure of right now..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 11:22:42 GMT -5
Personally think that's when this argument goes off the rails a bit. No way to know how hard the staff is working the conversation should be about results or lack there of imo...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 11:25:23 GMT -5
I totally agree. I've said elsewhere on here that if JT3 is serious about playing differently (and even if not, to some extent) he should rebrand the offense and tell the media about it every chance he gets - come up with a catchy name for it and let the media repeat it ad nauseum during our games. Let the players talk about it too, if warranted. We haven't played anything like a true Princeton offense in years, but the perception is still out there which is why JT3 should make efforts to change that perception. Wouldn't the best way to change the perception of the offense/Gtown style of play is to actually change the offense/style of play? The main issues with the PrinceTown offense in the recent past has been more roster & execution related imo.. Remember when JT3's early teams played similar to this.. That clip to me looks like an Advertisement for Marcus at Center. The mobility of the center and the fact his man had to guard him all over the floor stood out to me on first watch.
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trillesthoya
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Post by trillesthoya on Sept 20, 2016 11:26:45 GMT -5
Personally think that's when this argument goes off the rails a bit. No way to know how hard the staff is working the conversation should be about results or lack there of imo... Agreed. There's two prevailing narratives in these discussions: on one side theres the "we don't have top recruits so therefore they're not working hard enough" camp which doesn't really make sense considering effort isn't always and indicator for recruiting success, otherwise some mid-majors would be pulling all-americans regularly. On the opposite side you have the "Georgetown are the good guys and good guys always work hard and don't cheat" that presume our school is constantly hustling and giving every effort 100%. We don't have the faintest idea whether its one way or the other, so how hard the staff is trying really shouldn't be debated seriously here.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 20, 2016 11:53:18 GMT -5
Personally think that's when this argument goes off the rails a bit. No way to know how hard the staff is working the conversation should be about results or lack there of imo... I agree 100% Yaboy, that's why I always try to use appears or seems when posting about the staffs recruiting activities..
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 20, 2016 12:46:21 GMT -5
Wouldn't the best way to change the perception of the offense/Gtown style of play is to actually change the offense/style of play? The main issues with the PrinceTown offense in the recent past has been more roster & execution related imo.. Remember when JT3's early teams played similar to this.. That clip to me looks like an Advertisement for Marcus at Center. The mobility of the center and the fact his man had to guard him all over the floor stood out to me on first watch. Exactly my thoughts.. Plus I'm struck by how they actually pass the ball to guards in the low post and use them to run the high post stuff as well.. They're all truly interchangeable out there..
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 20, 2016 15:11:28 GMT -5
Wouldn't the best way to change the perception of the offense/Gtown style of play is to actually change the offense/style of play? The main issues with the PrinceTown offense in the recent past has been more roster & execution related imo.. I generally agree with you - our offensive problem has been more execution than anything else. And, I don't think any offensive system works when it is executed badly. That said, Georgetown hasn't played anything even closely resembling the YouTube video you sent along since at least 2008, maybe 2007. The Final Four team was well constructed for an offense based on Princeton principles - patience, passing, shooting, etc. Plus, throw in two elite college players (Hibbert, Green), and you have a recipe for success. I have no doubt that offense could work similarly effectively if we had the talent for it, we just haven't had that type of talent (for example, our passing has been atrocious the last few years). I do think JT3 needs to decide what he wants to do on offense, and do it well. If that means a more Princeton-oriented team so be it. If that involves some other system, so be it. Execution is really the most important factor, regardless of system. And, all that being said, I still think the biggest problem facing this team this year will be on the defensive side, not offense.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 20, 2016 16:57:03 GMT -5
Very sobering in my view, look at the work other teams are getting done..
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Sept 20, 2016 17:35:39 GMT -5
Which major college programs even employ anything that can remotely be labeled a Princeton offense? I ask because for all the Princeton talk in these threads, I no longer am certain what the Princeton offense is other than some version of rapid ball movement and passing to cutters or kick-outs to open shooters. It has taken on a life of its own and is generally used to describe a gimmick offense employed by a mid-major Ivy League school, Air Force and the Hoyas.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Sept 22, 2016 11:05:37 GMT -5
I'm always a little amused by all the focus on offensive systems. Until the NCAA figures out how to call defensive fouls off the ball in a consistent, systemic and fair way such that cutters and post players aren't being illegally held as they flash into the paint, most offensive systems - including the Princeton or Prince-town - will be almost impossible to run unless teams are loaded with three point threats that force defenses out of the paint/off the lines. Until that happens (if ever), having a team of players that plays effective, consistent, disciplined defense and can create/take advantage of opportunities (whether it be driving, shooting, fast breaks, or rebounds) seems to be the only reliable plan for success. Any other approach seems like madness considering how games are called these days.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 22, 2016 11:33:40 GMT -5
Which major college programs even employ anything that can remotely be labeled a Princeton offense? I ask because for all the Princeton talk in these threads, I no longer am certain what the Princeton offense is other than some version of rapid ball movement and passing to cutters or kick-outs to open shooters. It has taken on a life of its own and is generally used to describe a gimmick offense employed by a mid-major Ivy League school, Air Force and the Hoyas. As recently as the end of the 2011-12 season, Calipari was referring to his offense as the "Princeton on steroids".
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Sept 22, 2016 12:48:54 GMT -5
I hope the staff has started identifying possibly JUCO and 5th year guys for 2017---otherwise its looking more and more likely that we are a complete whiff for the recruiting class. I don't really care what we call our offense or defense or anything---right now it isn't convincing anyone to come to the Hilltop. We are down to Waters, Brown and Rafus for 2017, unless there are some other SRDs lurking around. But even Sumrandum Dood just committed to TCU.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Sept 22, 2016 13:16:52 GMT -5
I hope the staff has started identifying possibly JUCO and 5th year guys for 2017---otherwise its looking more and more likely that we are a complete whiff for the recruiting class. I don't really care what we call our offense or defense or anything---right now it isn't convincing anyone to come to the Hilltop. We are down to Waters, Brown and Rafus for 2017, unless there are some other SRDs lurking around. But even Sumrandum Dood just committed to TCU. I'd add Daniel Mading and David Beatty to this group. However, Waters and Brown seem like extreme longshots at this point.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 25, 2016 12:45:31 GMT -5
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CaliHoya
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Post by CaliHoya on Sept 25, 2016 13:19:52 GMT -5
The good news is that the Big East is clearly seeing a halo effect from the Nova championship. Programs that have never seen top 25 recruiting success are now having it (Butler, Creighton). I am optimistic that we will follow suit with our new facility, but time is short. I agree with blueandgray that this season appears to be make or break. If we can't win and capitalize on it in recruiting in the next year, it will be hard for JT3 to recover.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 25, 2016 14:25:47 GMT -5
The good news is that the Big East is clearly seeing a halo effect from the Nova championship. Programs that have never seen top 25 recruiting success are now having it (Butler, Creighton). I am optimistic that we will follow suit with our new facility, but time is short. I agree with blueandgray that this season appears to be make or break. If we can't win and capitalize on it in recruiting in the next year, it will be hard for JT3 to recover. What has Butler & Creighton won to warrant such good recruiting? You can throw Xavier in their too? Harvard pulled a 4* kid and 2 other 3+ kids in their 2016 class what have they won? The staff has to start recruiting to win, not the other way around.. Can't help but to think how nice a Luka Garza/Jelani Williams pairing would look right now..
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Sept 25, 2016 15:40:56 GMT -5
In my opinion the answer to our recruiting stems from our pace of play first and foremost, we need to speed the game up. This will bring back the Hoya defense/offence that teams have feared in the past. Secondly, we've had far too many set backs these past six years and no consistency on several fronts. We've had assistant coaches changes just about every two years, academic ineligibility, transfers, a poor practice facility, and health issues. Just half of these problems alone is a lot to over come. So I'm hoping that this years healthy team can hit their stride and stay healthy going into the post season to the tournament.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Sept 25, 2016 15:43:30 GMT -5
Beating out the likes of Florida, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, and Virginia Tech for Obinna, Vanderbilt has now put together a strong three-person class. The first year staff in Nashville has already landed high upside guard Saben Lee and explosive wing Maxwell Evans. Add the top-100 big man to the mix and Vanderbilt should be very optimistic for its future ahead during the new era under the tutelage of Bryce Drew.
What has Vanderbilt won lately?
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