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Post by Lethal_Interjection on Mar 27, 2016 4:42:43 GMT -5
Better defense, better in-game adjustments on both halves of the floor going forward.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Mar 27, 2016 9:40:41 GMT -5
And the Lowes commercial is as embarrassing as this year's performance... I actually find the newest one, where JTIII states " I thought there would not be any questions on Kentucky" funny. Especially in regards to how a lot of people on this board bashes Kentucky and Calipari.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Mar 27, 2016 9:47:01 GMT -5
In an effort to move forward from the JTIII coaching discussion thread that has been interesting on both sides but isn't finding common ground I thought it may be more productive to hear what expectations for next year and moving forward should be for this staff. I'll start with my own for next season: 1. Out-of-conference schedule - Win a game or two that we shouldn't but don't drop any bad losses 2. BE performance - Finish top 3 or 4 in conference 3. NCAA seeding - Secure NCAA bid regardless of seed 4. NCAA tournament performance - Win at least one game in the tournament if we are higher seeded team as 6 or better. And beyond: 5. Longer term - No more let downs of a non NCAA tournament season (let alone losing record) and move forward with at least one run to an elite 8 or better in next three seasons. Realistically, all JTIII needs to do is make the tourney and that's it... And if it is a high seed then people can still come here and brag about how we had a great regular season and how a #2 and #4 Seeds are reasons to celebrate. And list the limitations of the program that JTIII has to overcome.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Mar 27, 2016 12:48:00 GMT -5
get back to playing start-to-finish defense. Then get out the way and let these guys create for themselves. Finally, play to improve, not just to win the next game.
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FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 27, 2016 13:08:23 GMT -5
Is it too simplistic to just leave it at "Make the NCAA Tournament" and "Players Improve"? (I'm even trying to skimp words on the expectations!)
That's really where I'm at right now. I can't help, given where we are right now as a program, but go with a very simple set of overarching expectations. The other stuff about results in non-conference games and Big East standings, while still valuable, strikes me as signposts that we got there on the expectations front. And not necessarily diagnostic ones--there are any number of pathways that can get you to the NCAA Tournament (or not), as the lengthy parsing of the 2010-16 seasons above will attest.
If I'm being honest, you could even reduce this down to "Right the Ship".
To take this in a slightly different direction, I think we've reached the point where it's fair to raise "Communicate With Your Fan Base" as a legitimate expectation.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 27, 2016 13:16:06 GMT -5
Shouldn't have lost to Temple. Period. Good teams figure out ways to avoid such losses to inferior teams even on the road. At least by some metrics, Temple was rated higher than us that year. So you're saying we should've beaten a better or even team, away? That's not the way it works. It's pretty indisputable that if teams are even, the home team has a pretty distinct advantage. With regard to winning at Kansas, Kansas has not lost at home since January 5, 2014. They lost one home game in 2013, one in 2011, and then you have go back to 2007 for the next home loss. So seriously, in the last 10 seasons, they've lost 4 home games. Obviously, it would have been nice to beat Indiana that year, but they were the #1 team. Come on. You are basically saying that we should almost always beat everybody we play. My list showed we did beat some quite good teams during that stretch (convenient that you omitted Duke 2010 from your list in your rebuttal). Realistically, we aren't going to win all of those. Obviously, I want to win as many as possible. I don't disagree with you here. I think the goal should be to sweep everybody for that matter. That doesn't mean it'll happen. Who say I was "okay" with the semi-finals. I hate losing. I really do. I want to make the finals of the BET. I've been to MSG and watched us lose the BET finals twice (in 2008 and 2010). Believe me, I want them to win! I am just saying that you need to take everything in context. But, of course, I want them to win in the BET. Personally, I don't feel strongly about this. I think it's missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't really matter in the end, either way. I am not trying to make excuses. I am trying to be rational. I think it's silly to say things like, "we need to make the BET final." So, if we finish first in the conference, lose in the semifinals of the BET, and then go to the Sweet 16 or better, we wouldn't meet your expectations? I just think setting super strict parameters on "expectations" really doesn't make sense. We've been over the NCAA losses a million times. You say we've been "punched in the mouth" and had "our heads handed to us by midmajors for the most part." Let's see. We lost to a midmajor in 2008 (with the current NBA MVP), 2010 (Ohio), 2011 (VCU - Final Four), 2013 (FGCU). So that's 4 losses to midjmajors since 2008. Since 2008, the team also has beaten midmajors handily: 2008 (UMBC, won by 19), 2012 (Belmont - won by 14), and Eastern Washington (won by 10). So our record against "mid-majors" since 2008 is basically 3-4. I am not saying it's a good record. I am certainly not happy with it. But the idea that we cannot beat midmajors in the NCAA tournament is just not true. Yes, we have had hugely bad losses, and we should not have had those. I am not defending our crappy performance, but I take issue when you see patterns that simply aren't there. Let me give you some context. I really only got hooked on Georgetown basketball in the 2008 season, and really in the 2009 season. I actually did not follow the team closely when I was a student (nor was a fan of basketball at the time) from 1999-2003. While I was aware of the 2007 Final Four and watched it, I wasn't a big fan like I am now. So yes, my true intense fandom began in 2008-2009. That means that I have basically never experienced the thrill of our making a Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight, or Final Four. You bet that's intensely frustrating for me, especially as I watch other teams (like Villanova) make it there. And basically, given the timeline of my Hoya fandom, I basically have ONLY experienced our frustrating losses in the post-season, beginning with not making it in 2009, losing to Ohio in 2010, an beyond. You are entitled to set whatever expectations you want. There's nothing wrong with that. But, others who might not have strict parameters like yours aren't necessarily making "excuses." At least in my case, I think I am being realistic. I badly want to make it to the Sweet 16 or beyond as much as anybody. And I want it "now." What do I think is reasonable? I think it's reasonable to expect a top 3 Big East Finish, top 8 seeding in the NCAA tournament, and living up to our seed in the NCAA tournament. Is that all I want? No. I want to win a championship.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 27, 2016 15:36:41 GMT -5
]At least by some metrics, Temple was rated higher than us that year. So you're saying we should've beaten a better or even team, away? That's not the way it works. It's pretty indisputable that if teams are even, the home team has a pretty distinct advantage. If Gtown wins the game at Temple then Temple wouldn't have been rated higher than Gtown "by some metrics". You see how simple that is? So what? Streaks are meant to be broken. And I didn't write Gtown must win THAT game or have to win THAT game. What I wrote was I couldn't stomach Gtown fans already writing that game off as a loss. Dude, number one teams are knocked off all the time by "lesser" teams in the regular season. That's how we get multiple number one teams in any given season. Upcoming coaches make a name for themselves by doing it more than once. III has done it one time and had had chances to do it again but came up short. And by the way just because Indiana was #1 doesn't make that team an All Time Great. That Indiana team failed to make it to the Final Four. I believe they were knocked off in the Sweet 16 by Syracuse. Wrong. I'm saying that every once in awhile those Gtown teams that end up as top four seeds in the NCAA tourney should beat every team in its non conference schedule before the BE season begins. But we never do it seems. Once again....other squads not named Duke, UNC, Kansas and UK have managed to accomplish this. Oh, my goodness. If it doesn't happen then it means the team is probably not ready to be at the top of the BE. Okay? It's like me saying if a politician wants to be President he will have to beat his competition for the most votes and you respond with that may be the goal but it may not happen. Well....duh. That isn't the point. Either get those votes or don't. Either get the victories you are capable of or settle for second or worse in the BE. What? This is a lay out your EXPECTATIONS thread. Hello? It isn't about what you find silly, it is about what each individual see as their expectations for the team and the program next year. Do you see me raining on your expectations? Make it a million and one. Let me get this straight.....your argument is that even as high seeds Gtown is just below .500 when facing mid-majors in the NCAA tourney over these number of years? That is your actual evidence that things aren't that bad? And there are Redskins fans who were never alive to see the team make it to a Super Bowl let alone win one. But I don't know any of them whose expectations are only to make the playoffs once every ten years just to lose in the first game when they do. In other words you don't have to have been around for the good times to understand that the bad times are nothing to be complacently accepting of.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by drquigley on Mar 27, 2016 18:44:15 GMT -5
Hey guys, I think Nova just showed us what expectations for this program should be. It's not like they have some advantage that we don't.
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Post by krukster201 on Mar 27, 2016 20:12:18 GMT -5
I won't get into expectations(still have a sour taste).. but I'd like to see an entirely different approach by the staff:
Different O (or something that resembles a real Offense) constant press (old school Hoya D) fast breaks (push the ball) a little fire from time to time (tired of the soft approach and tired of getting chumped off) No more Blown leads (adjustments in-game - and Finish opponents off) Losses to inferior opponents just cant happen (coach the players up - prepare for each opponent) Play the kids that give full effort every minute
these are just my thoughts and opinions .. this was actually the first year I didn't watch or follow every game the Hoyas played.(checked results on espn already knowing what to expect) Just disgusted and annoyed. I will try again next season , just couldn't stomach such a disappointing season the way it unfolded.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 27, 2016 21:14:46 GMT -5
If Gtown wins the game at Temple then Temple wouldn't have been rated higher than Gtown "by some metrics". You see how simple that is? With all due respect, this makes no sense. By just about any metric that considers the entire season, the teams were similar. Temple was a 7 seed, Georgetown was a 6. Temple ended the year ranked 22, Georgetown was ranked 25. By RPI, Georgetown was 13, Temple was 30. On KenPom, Temple was 31 and Georgetown was 36. If the Georgetown/Temple game flipped to a Temple win, it would have pretty minimal impact overall. So by some metrics, Temple was better, by others Georgetown, but they were generally very close. If you don't understand how metrics work, I would not be condescending about it. First of all, a streak is 10 games where you score 15 points, 20 points, etc. I don't think Kansas' utter dominance over the last TEN YEARS at home could be deemed a "streak." You're setting up a straw man and then knocking it down. I never said we should concede the game at Kansas as a loss. But, I think a realistic assessment by just about anybody trying to analyze the game would say it's a game where Kansas is heavily favored to win. And that's assuming we have a pretty good team. If that's "writing that game off" in your mind, so be it, but I am going to continue to analyze things in a realistic world. Yes, I know that. Obviously, it would have been great to beat Indiana that season. And there you go again with the straw men. Nobody is saying Indiana was an "All Time Great." You are grasping at straws here. Generally, JT3 had absolutely fantastic OOC results before this season, and especially before last season. Are you serious? First of all, scheduling out of conference makes a huge impact on whether you go undefeated or not. Esherick did it at least once, yet the team got clobbered in the conference season. Second, since 2008, Kansas, Duke, UNC, and UK have each done this two times each in 9 seasons. All of those teams were 1 seeds, except a Duke team that was undefeated OOC and a 2 seed. So you're basically taking the bluest of blue bloods and they still essentially accomplish this 22.2% of the time, and this is a realistic expectation? I'm not sure this is actually a rebuttal. You seem to think I am "settling" for second or worse, and I'm not. I do think your single handed focus on Providence is odd. If we went 16-2 and got swept by Providence, that wouldn't bother me. I just want to be good and beat the good teams. Again, you're shooting down a straw man. I never said "things aren't bad" because of a 3-4 record against mid-majors. In fact, if you read my post, you will see that I acknowledge that a 3-4 record isn't a good one. I was responding directly to your argument about getting continually "punched in the face" by mid-majors, and I pointed out that we actually have soundly defeated three mid majors in the NCAA context (more if you want to include 2007 and beforehand), one as recently as a year ago. Straw man alert. Again. I am not sure what the basketball equivalent is to "make the playoffs once every ten years just to lose in the first game when they do." But, I'm pretty confident that's a bad analogy to our situation. We've made the NCAAs under JT3, and we have won NCAA games, though less than we "should" have based on seeding. It's not great, but it's not the dismal situation you describe. My expectations are not that Georgetown should make it past the Sweet 16 once in 10 years. I don't think that's a good record, and I think it's something we absolutely need to improve upon. Who is saying we are complacent? Listen, I am a lifelong Yankees fan who grew up in the dismal late 1980s and early 1990s and enjoyed the fantastic late 1990s. I know how good sports can be. I am not some complacent person who simply has no idea what it is like to succeed. When I see arguments made that have absolutely no foundation in fact, I am going to point that out. If you interpret that as complacent, then so be it.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 27, 2016 21:23:25 GMT -5
I won't get into expectations(still have a sour taste).. but I'd like to see an entirely different approach by the staff: Different O (or something that resembles a real Offense) constant press (old school Hoya D) fast breaks (push the ball) a little fire from time to time (tired of the soft approach and tired of getting chumped off) No more Blown leads (adjustments in-game - and Finish opponents off) Losses to inferior opponents just cant happen (coach the players up - prepare for each opponent) Play the kids that give full effort every minute these are just my thoughts and opinions .. this was actually the first year I didn't watch or follow every game the Hoyas played.(checked results on espn already knowing what to expect) Just disgusted and annoyed. I will try again next season , just couldn't stomach such a disappointing season the way it unfolded. We didn't really blow many leads this season because we were behind most of the time toward the end of the season. As for the press, JT3 did use it a lot more toward the end of the season to limited effect. There's also no indication that JT3 hasn't played guys who give full effort. And I am not sure how you can criticize the offense when you acknowledge you haven't even watched the games. But, I do appreciate your admitting that. I sense that many others are in a similar position, but choose to act like they've seen all the games.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 27, 2016 21:28:09 GMT -5
I won't get into expectations(still have a sour taste).. but I'd like to see an entirely different approach by the staff: Different O (or something that resembles a real Offense) constant press (old school Hoya D) fast breaks (push the ball) a little fire from time to time (tired of the soft approach and tired of getting chumped off) No more Blown leads (adjustments in-game - and Finish opponents off) Losses to inferior opponents just cant happen (coach the players up - prepare for each opponent) Play the kids that give full effort every minute these are just my thoughts and opinions .. this was actually the first year I didn't watch or follow every game the Hoyas played.(checked results on espn already knowing what to expect) Just disgusted and annoyed. I will try again next season , just couldn't stomach such a disappointing season the way it unfolded. We didn't really blow many leads this season because we were behind most of the time toward the end of the season. As for the press, JT3 did use it a lot more toward the end of the season to limited effect. There's also no indication that JT3 hasn't played guys who give full effort. And I am not sure how you can criticize the offense when you acknowledge you haven't even watched the games. But, I do appreciate your admitting that. I sense that many others are in a similar position, but choose to act like they've seen all the games. I will say that I did watch almost all of the games and can say the offense was terrible and when you combine that with a bad defense that we had it's a recipe for what we witnessed. I remember watching the teams in the 90's (without AI) under JTII and they had no offense but at least played defense. This year was perfect storm and hopefully causes our staff to look within and really adjust things to coach to the talents they have rather than running what they do that doesn't fit. I think this team was loaded with athletes that weren't utilized to out athlete teams. They were busy in half court sets they couldn't run or didn't understand.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 27, 2016 22:18:57 GMT -5
With all due respect, this makes no sense. No....your entire responses lack sense. I was about to do another go around with you taking you to task on some questionable arguments you keep making. But then it hit me. I'm pretty much arguing with a dude who relatively speaking just discovered Gtown hoops and has plenty of time on his hands to start inane arguments and keep silly debates going around in circles. Each time I shoot down a point you would only pick it back up and argue it again as if I hadn't already answered your questions and rebuttals. So why continue? I think your understanding of what makes programs great and the history of this program are lacking. Just my opinion. You think I'm totally unreasonable. Great. Whatever. Life is too short for me to be arguing with someone who simply wants the last word. I've learned my lessons over the years here that having that last say isn't necessary. Which is to say I know how to move on. We will agree to disagree. Besides....I want you to be able to practice that new word you just discovered (strawman) with some other soon-to-be-victim on this board. Because Lord knows you have already worn it out in your last post alone. But before I go.... When I see arguments made that have absolutely no foundation in fact, I am going to point that out. If you interpret that as complacent, then so be it. That line says so much about how high of an opinion you have of yourself. As if you are dropping knowledge from the sky for all of us who don't know any better. Eagle54 set up a thread in which fans of the team could come in and express what THEIR expectations were for the team next season. He didn't set any terms of what should be considered reasonable or how low the bar should or shouldn't be. It was just an invitation for Hoya fans to give THEIR opinion. And in walks you trying to lecture to people what was a reasonable argument and what wasn't. Like you own the thread or something. This wasn't a thread about arguing whether the coach was good or not or whether the program was heading in the wrong direction. Those threads already existed and people argue passionately with another inside those threads. This thread didn't appear to be made to debate the merits of individuals' viewpoints. You didn't see me coming in here shooting down previous posts by people's whose expectations didn't meet my own. That's because this thread appeared to be about letting people know what we as individuals expected from the program and be done with it. Give an opinion and move on. But, no. You decided to hijack the thread and make it all about what you see wrong with certain expectations. Who made you Lord of Hoya fandom? I try to point this out to you in previous responses but it either went over your head or you were so engaged in your righteous agenda that you just wouldn't have your voice denied. I've been following this program since 1989 when I was pretty much still a kid. Don't you try to tell me my expectations are wrong. Don't try instructing me how I should view things. Save that nonsense for other relative newcomers who might be stupid enough to be impressed by your act.
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Post by krukster201 on Mar 27, 2016 22:31:51 GMT -5
I said "I DIDN'T WATCH OR FOLLOW EVEEERY GAME THE HOYAS PLAYED" (meaning I watched or simply followed on a mobile device) .. I watched enough to know the results would all be the same. If I sat here and acted like there were positives from this season , who am I fooling. Fact of the matter is I've been a Die Hard fan for many years and as a Fan I'm entitled to my own opinion. There's a reason we don't land the players we need to turn the program around. Same results year in and year out. I was excited in the beginning of the year to be honest. It crushed me to say "This team will be lucky to get to .500" or "This team Can't possibly make the dance" . With the talent we have , it's unacceptable. Many of these kids would thrive in other systems and I don't blame the one's that overlooked the Hoyas. Ochefu , Meeks , Britt , Jenkins , Hart , B.Johnson , Richardson , Gbinije , Howard , Lucas , Booth to name a few. The Hoyas made the final list for a few of these kids and were involved. My point is , changes are needed . I'm anxious to see how things unfold. For Those on the board who have met me personally through out the years , know I LOVE MY HOYAS WITH A PASSION! I wanna see this Program Shine and grow .. not fade and become the laughing stoke of CBB. Baby Steps I guess. At any rate , hope everyone had a great Holiday weekend with their loved ones.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 27, 2016 22:36:10 GMT -5
This is dependent only on the players whom have eligibility to return actually end up returning.... 1)Stop with the No Moral Victory Parade. For the last half dozen or so years it seems as if the Hoyas meet a few highly ranked and well regarded teams early in the season only to come away with one victory or maybe none at all. The games are close though which makes it all the more frustrating. Two seasons ago it was against the likes of Wisconsin and Kansas. This season it was against the likes of Maryland and Duke. I understand it isn't fair for Gtown to win all of these contests every year, but if the program wants to set a tone and raise the level of expectations (including possibly their own), the Hoyas will need years in which they actually win most if not all of these games. Next season if Maryland comes in as depleted as it looks like they will the Hoyas need to BEAT them....even if Verizon has more Terp fans. If the Hoyas play in another pre-season tournament then they are OVERDUE to actually have the stones to win one of those @#$% things. The Hoyas should be able to match up against Kansas no matter if the game is played in DC or in Lawrence. The Hoyas by all means better beat a UConn team at home that they should have beaten on the road this past season. And the Hoyas better be ready to take care of business at Syracuse. If the Hoyas lose one of these games so be it. That is still very good. But to lose more than one suggests more of the same. 2)The Hoyas won't start in any preseason Top 25s but they need to win enough games early in to get in the Top 25 as soon as possible. And then...stay there for the remainder of the @#$% season. Enough of this nonsense. Even in Porter's last season the team started off horribly enough that it took forever to get into the Top 25. Going on a win streak for over a month of games cemented our place in that Top 25. Over the past three seasons though the Hoyas have only been ranked for a few weeks total. That's not getting it done. I realize some like to spend each early part of the season on this board dismissing the notion of the worthiness of the Top 25 ("we don't need it", "I'd rather we sneak up on teams", "let us be seen as the underdogs"). Once I was even guilty of that. But it is clear that one important way of staying relevant in this new Big East era in which the media (local included) goes out of its way to ignore you, is to put yourself in a position in which the media has no choice but to cover you. Being ranked would do that for the Hoyas and provide more press. But since, as I pointed out already, the Hoyas won’t start off in any preseason Top 25s, they must go out and win the BIG games that I discussed in the previous paragraph while also avoiding the season-killing losses to the midmajors that plagued them this season. 3)A top two finish in the Big East, with an all-out effort to finish number one. Yeah, I said it. Or wrote it. I understand who Villanova is likely to return as well as Xavier. I get the fact that there is always a possibility of Whitehead returning for Seton Hall. And if Marquette gets their big man to return for one more year they have the potential to be as good as anyone. And I don’t care. There was to much talent on this Gtown roster this year to be that bad and next year, depending on my condition of all guys returning there will still be too much talent and now even more experience for this team NOT to challenge for the BE crown. We would need to rebound next season like Seton Hall did this season but unlike SH the players on next year’s Gtown squad will at least have the benefit of having gone to the tourney two years prior. If you don’t think Peak has the talent to be a First Team All Big East you weren’t paying attention. If you don’t think Copeland has the potential to be up there as well as long as he puts in the work then you’re being overly negative. If you don’t think a healthy Paul White can contribute positively then you are sleeping on that kid. Not to mention that Derrickson was further along as a frosh than Jennings was as freshman for Villanova. And also that Govan, depending on if the Marquette guy returns, would be the most talented big man in the conference. Then there are guys like Mourning and Johnson that I think very highly of who I feel can take the next step as well as the potential of the Louisville transfer whose name escapes me at this moment. Point is the team has talent on its roster to beat anyone like it did at Xavier this year. If the team needs another ballhandler or two then so be it. Its III’s job to take care of that. And I expect him to do so. 4)Sweep Providence. Good grief. To be owned by the Friars (four straight losses, five out of the last six) is inexcusable. Two seasons ago the Hoyas should have won both games and let them get away. This past season the Hoyas were competitive but again lost both. Enough of this. The team and program is going anywhere if III allows his squad to keep being owned by programs like the Friars. You can make an argument that in the three years of the BE-Fox era the three top programs have been Nova, Xavier and Providence. And the Hoyas have been dominated by all three. That must change. And that change should occur first at least with a Dunn-less Friars. But if the guys from Rhode Island sweep us again then III shouldn’t even get another year. 5)Make it to the @#$% championship of the Big East Tournament. Last time I checked Syracuse, UConn, Louisville, Pitt and even freakin’ Notre dame are not in the Big East anymore. That means the path to a championship game played on a Saturday night at MSG is a much easier one than previously. FOX/FS1 has been nice enough to give Gtown the opportunity of at least ten years of appearing in such a game and so far the Hoyas have squandered three of those years. III was talking crap a few years ago when he told the media that the New Big East should be called the Georgetown conference considering how Gtown was leading the way and dictating terms to Fox. It rubbed some non Gtown fans the wrong way and even caught the negative attention of some media guys like Feinstein. And three years later our coach looks like a fool. It is time for him to earn his paycheck and live up to his own big expectations. We need to be playing on national TV at MSG next season in the championship game for the BE. Period. It’s a good tool for recruiting and it proves we are actually serious about an NCAA tourney run. 6)If the team is assured of an NCAA bid (sorry….WHEN the team is assured) please no more large celebration gathering of everyone on campus around the TV screens for the media to cover and the world to see. If III wants to be serious and change his fortunes, then he should consider changing his script and have a more private gathering with his team. He keeps wanting to put together this big party as if the main goal has been achieved. Isn’t he sick of that by now? Does he at least believe in bad luck by this point? 7)Last of all….make it to the second weekend of the NCAA tourney, particularly if the team ends up with a 4 seed or better. No excuses. Get it done. Sweet Sixteen or bust. MCI, I'm certainly not going to tell you what you should or shouldn't expect. I do note that you are expecting either a 1 or a 2 seed in the NCAAT. Any team that beats all the cupcakes in the OOC, wins all but one OOC game against the good opponents, finishes in the top 2 in conference, and gets to the BET final is going to be no worse than a 2 seed.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 27, 2016 22:47:33 GMT -5
MCI, I'm certainly not going to tell you what you should or shouldn't expect. I do note that you are expecting either a 1 or a 2 seed in the NCAAT. Any team that beats all the cupcakes in the OOC, wins all but one OOC game against the good opponents, finishes in the top 2 in conference, and gets to the BET final is going to be no worse than a 2 seed. Eh...you may be right. Though a third seed could result from that or even a fourth seed if the conference RPI takes a hit because not enough good players returned overall for the league.
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Post by krukster201 on Mar 27, 2016 23:02:35 GMT -5
I agree with all of them points MCI ... We need the Program , the coaches and the Players to wake up. GET HUNGRY , GET ANGRY , EARN RESPECT and With a Chip on your shoulder. The talent is there , I guess that's what bothers me the most. I won't fall into the same trap as I HAVE THE Last few years , I wanna see a difference this coming season. It makes me sick to my stomach to watch and hear about CUSE. What a Melt down by Va. SMH
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 27, 2016 23:28:26 GMT -5
No....your entire responses lack sense. I was about to do another go around with you taking you to task on some questionable arguments you keep making. But then it hit me. I'm pretty much arguing with a dude who relatively speaking just discovered Gtown hoops and has plenty of time on his hands to start inane arguments and keep silly debates going around in circles. Each time I shoot down a point you would only pick it back up and argue it again as if I hadn't already answered your questions and rebuttals. So why continue? I think your understanding of what makes programs great and the history of this program are lacking. Just my opinion. You think I'm totally unreasonable. Great. Whatever. Life is too short for me to be arguing with someone who simply wants the last word. I've learned my lessons over the years here that having that last say isn't necessary. Which is to say I know how to move on. We will agree to disagree. Besides....I want you to be able to practice that new word you just discovered (strawman) with some other soon-to-be-victim on this board. Because Lord knows you have already worn it out in your last post alone. But before I go.... When I see arguments made that have absolutely no foundation in fact, I am going to point that out. If you interpret that as complacent, then so be it. That line says so much about how high of an opinion you have of yourself. As if you are dropping knowledge from the sky for all of us who don't know any better. Eagle54 set up a thread in which fans of the team could come in and express what THEIR expectations were for the team next season. He didn't set any terms of what should be considered reasonable or how low the bar should or shouldn't be. It was just an invitation for Hoya fans to give THEIR opinion. And in walks you trying to lecture to people what was a reasonable argument and what wasn't. Like you own the thread or something. This wasn't a thread about arguing whether the coach was good or not or whether the program was heading in the wrong direction. Those threads already existed and people argue passionately with another inside those threads. This thread didn't appear to be made to debate the merits of individuals' viewpoints. You didn't see me coming in here shooting down previous posts by people's whose expectations didn't meet my own. That's because this thread appeared to be about letting people know what we as individuals expected from the program and be done with it. Give an opinion and move on. But, no. You decided to hijack the thread and make it all about what you see wrong with certain expectations. Who made you Lord of Hoya fandom? I try to point this out to you in previous responses but it either went over your head or you were so engaged in your righteous agenda that you just wouldn't have your voice denied. I've been following this program since 1989 when I was pretty much still a kid. Don't you try to tell me my expectations are wrong. Don't try instructing me how I should view things. Save that nonsense for other relative newcomers who might be stupid enough to be impressed by your act. You say, "Each time I shoot down a point you would only pick it back up and argue it again as if I hadn't already answered your questions and rebuttals. So why continue?" yet you never actually rebutted my points. Then, you essentially resort to insults and further condescension rather than rebutting any of my real points. You criticize my use of the word "straw man," implying that I just learned the word and feel a need to spout it out as much as possible. I used the word because you were responding to arguments I did not make. I could have stated "you are responding to arguments I did not make" instead. Next time, I guess I should do that. Second, you say, "I think your understanding of what makes programs great and the history of this program are lacking." Again, you criticize me, with absolutely no basis for doing so. Am I an expert on the 1980s Hoyas in the way that some (like DFW) are? Absolutely not. If you noticed, whenever there are discussions of the early 1980s Hoyas and the 1990s Hoyas, I stay out of the discussion. While I know a fair amount about it from reading and watching old games (and DFW's excellent book), I generally leave that to others. As far as expectations are concerned, I feel that I know enough about "what makes programs great" and our "history" to provide an opinion. Also, in some ways I think some who did experience the 1980s and 1990s have a skewed version of our program and college basketball because they still view it partially in that lens. Hoya Paranoia ended in 1989. That's when we were a truly elite team. The program was elite. But the unfortunate fact is that we do not live in that era anymore. I would absolutely love to achieve greatness at that level again, but that is not realistic. And, there is no magic elixir out there that will make that happen. The game has also changed. In the 1980s, John Thompson Jr. capitalized on certain aspects of the game and recruiting that simply do not exist anymore. The game itself - shot clock, three point line, more of a focus on guard play versus big men - has also changed significantly since then. There are no more 4 year college players like Patrick Ewing. As far as expectations, I formulate them based on where I think we are in college basketball at the moment. As aleutianhoya mentioned above, your "expectations" essentially state the case for a 1 or 2 seed in the tournament. That would have certainly been a realistic assessment in 1985, but it's not a realistic assessment in 2016, especially given the troubles we faced this season. And, even if we assumed we changed the coach AND got a very good replacement, I still think that type of expectation would be a stretch. Really, my point overall wasn't very different from aleutianhoya's. Perhaps he stated it more concisely, but my point is essentially the same. As far as your insinuations about my opinion of myself, I'll just say that you don't know me, you've never met me, and you have absolutely no idea what type of personality or opinion I have of myself. But, I guess quoting me out of context allows you to make a cute and patronizing response. I will not respond in kind. As for the last paragraph, I really don't need you to explain how a message board works. This is here for debate and discussion among fans. It keeps us fans engaged in the program. And sometimes it's fun, at least when we actually debate basketball, and don't insult one another. You said, "Who made you Lord of Hoya fandom?" then proceeded to lecture me about the purpose of this thread, and you told me to "Give an opinion and move on." Thanks for setting out the terms under which I may write on this message board.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Mar 28, 2016 7:23:07 GMT -5
With all due respect, this makes no sense. No....your entire responses lack sense. I was about to do another go around with you taking you to task on some questionable arguments you keep making. But then it hit me. I'm pretty much arguing with a dude who relatively speaking just discovered Gtown hoops and has plenty of time on his hands to start inane arguments and keep silly debates going around in circles. Each time I shoot down a point you would only pick it back up and argue it again as if I hadn't already answered your questions and rebuttals. definitely feel you on that one. also applicable to Aleutian, KC, and some other trolls i cannot remember off top of my head
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Posts: 9,934
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Post by kchoya on Mar 28, 2016 7:57:53 GMT -5
No....your entire responses lack sense. I was about to do another go around with you taking you to task on some questionable arguments you keep making. But then it hit me. I'm pretty much arguing with a dude who relatively speaking just discovered Gtown hoops and has plenty of time on his hands to start inane arguments and keep silly debates going around in circles. Each time I shoot down a point you would only pick it back up and argue it again as if I hadn't already answered your questions and rebuttals. definitely feel you on that one. also applicable to Aleutian, KC, and some other trolls i cannot remember off top of my head Just because so many people point out the flaws in your posts does not make them "trolls." Do you even know what an internet troll is?
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