HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Feb 12, 2016 15:43:22 GMT -5
This is without even getting into the actual choice between watching on TV with a 30 rack that cost you as much as two beers at the Verizon Center that getting to will tack on an additional 90 minutes to the two hours you're spending watching the game. Personally, I would be looking for a rack that was a lot bigger than 30.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Feb 12, 2016 15:50:55 GMT -5
Personally, I would be looking for a rack that was a lot bigger than 30. This is a family board, Chris. Chill, bro.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 12, 2016 15:53:41 GMT -5
Personally, I would be looking for a rack that was a lot bigger than 30. Oh, you Canadians. . . .
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 12, 2016 16:11:21 GMT -5
Don't be bitter that you did not have the Pub. There was only one Hall of Famer in the DFW years. Finally, if you think it was a task to get to Verizon; try Landover. Excuses, excuses. I don't think its a big deal to get to Verizon, but there is certainly a lot of blaming of current students for a lack of support when they support the team better than the students did in the 1980s, despite the fact that students now a days have much better TVs to watch the games on, are higher achievers with less free time because they put more effort into their studies and have to get an internship to have a chance at a job so they can pay off their much higher debt load, etc. Basically, the only thing anyone had better to do in the 1980s was go to the Pub. There were no other entertainment options except whatever was on the four broadcast channels, and DC was the murder capital of the world. And yet no one went to basketball games. Too entitled to ride a free bus that took them door to door. And sorry that DFW only got to see one HOFer play, unlike those lucky stiffs that didn't go to games from 1989 to 1992. He and his classmates just had to settle for watching the best team in the country. Apparently that wasn't a good enough reason for the entitled students at Georgetown in 1984 and 1985.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 12, 2016 16:32:20 GMT -5
You can say what you will about the student support being "soft," etc, but I think SFHoya99 really hit the nail on the head. Winning is basically the cure-all to attendance problems. Our base-level attendance is never going to reach the level of a place like Creighton or Marquette. Those schools - largely because of their locations, student bodies, and their local culture - draw a lot more fans on any given day than Georgetown will ever draw. It's just the way it is - sort of how many SEC schools will pack their football games regardless of outcome, whereas ACC football will have tons of empty seats. It's really all about the sports culture and circumstances of the universities and where they are located.
As has been said, the best span of attendance was around and after the 2007 Final Four. We put out a winning product, and people want to see winners. For all the talk around here about boring offensive styles, etc., the 2007 Final Four team played the closest thing to a Princeton offense we have featured, they had an EXTREMELY slow tempo (one of the slowest in the country), and yet, attendance was high and grew in the following years.
The fact is to move beyond the core/base of fans (which for Georgetown, isn't huge), you need to win and get more casual type fans/students to come to games. Unfortunately, I think that March performance plays an oversized role in that, but that's because casual fans pay attention in March and that's it.
For all the complaints, all in all, our attendance is not bad. The main reason people complain is because we play in an NBA arena with 20,000 seats. In any medium sized arena (like Cameron), our attendance would be a lot more impressive. As far as home court advantage is concerned, we simply will never have a huge one at Verizon for most games.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 12, 2016 16:35:27 GMT -5
And as an aside: I think way too much focus is placed on student attendance. Sure, it's important, and sure, it sets up alumni who will eventually come to games if they are in the DC area. But, I would argue that student attendance is only going to make a difference at the margins. There are only what, about 7,000 undergraduates? Even if we consistently got 1,000 students (and that seems highly generous given the way the student section looks on TV) to come to each game, it might make it look better on TV, but it's not going to make a huge difference to the ultimate totals.
When Georgetown's attendance pushes above 10,000 it's because outsiders are coming to the games; it's not because suddenly 50% of the student body decides to attend a game.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 12, 2016 18:00:11 GMT -5
Don't be bitter that you did not have the Pub. There was only one Hall of Famer in the DFW years. Finally, if you think it was a task to get to Verizon; try Landover. Excuses, excuses. I don't think its a big deal to get to Verizon, but there is certainly a lot of blaming of current students for a lack of support when they support the team better than the students did in the 1980s, despite the fact that students now a days have much better TVs to watch the games on, are higher achievers with less free time because they put more effort into their studies and have to get an internship to have a chance at a job so they can pay off their much higher debt load, etc. Basically, the only thing anyone had better to do in the 1980s was go to the Pub. There were no other entertainment options except whatever was on the four broadcast channels, and DC was the murder capital of the world. And yet no one went to basketball games. Too entitled to ride a free bus that took them door to door. And sorry that DFW only got to see one HOFer play, unlike those lucky stiffs that didn't go to games from 1989 to 1992. He and his classmates just had to settle for watching the best team in the country. Apparently that wasn't a good enough reason for the entitled students at Georgetown in 1984 and 1985. TBird, I was around the time of the HoFs and student turnout was great. It was the rest of the crowd that was weak, depending on the game. As someone pointed out, it's Landover instead of smack in the middle of D.C. Obviuosly is easier to get out of work and go to a game in Verizon than the wasted land of Landover. Any comparison of attendance numbers with other eras has to be oranges to oranges and apples to apples. Is it possible to separate attendance numbers by students and the rest of the public?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 12, 2016 21:44:08 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Marquette is in year two of a rebuilding effort and still approaches 13,000 a game. The Bradley Center is a much closer walk from the Marquette campus (1 mile) than the Phone Booth is from the Hilltop (between 3.4 and 4.1 miles depending on the route).
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 12, 2016 22:19:39 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Marquette is in year two of a rebuilding effort and still approaches 13,000 a game. The Bradley Center is a much closer walk from the Marquette campus (1 mile) than the Phone Booth is from the Hilltop (between 3.4 and 4.1 miles depending on the route). Not to mention many more distractions in DC around GTOWN than Milwaukee and the Marquette campus. That's a double edged sword but one that slices us when we aren't doing well as this season has gone.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 12, 2016 22:45:18 GMT -5
Not to mention many more distractions in DC around GTOWN than Milwaukee and the Marquette campus. That's a double edged sword but one that slices us when we aren't doing well as this season has gone. I just don't buy the argument that Marquette kids go to games because there's less to do in Milwaukee and/or a Georgetown student is busier touring the Smithsonian or curing the common cold than to go to Verizon Center. Winning is great but it is still possible (and sometimes even moreso) to enjoy supporting a team when they need it, not just when they are on the crest of a wave. But I do share the concern that the games are not being promoted among the student body as they should--where is the pre-game promotion, the signs in Leavey Center, the "let's all go the game" approach? Being off campus hurts, sure, but that's been the case for anyone under the age of 50, and the numbers were better than they are now.
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Feb 12, 2016 22:53:27 GMT -5
I have never been a fan of playing games at the Verizon center. Atmosphere is weak. I would take the smaller, rowdier gym every time.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 13, 2016 15:54:59 GMT -5
What's the over/under on student attendance for the Seton Hall game on Wednesday at 9:00 PM? Maybe they also can show up in the second half, just like the team...
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 13, 2016 15:58:08 GMT -5
Winning is great but it is still possible (and sometimes even moreso) to enjoy supporting a team when they need it, not just when they are on the crest of a wave. But I do share the concern that the games are not being promoted among the student body as they should--where is the pre-game promotion, the signs in Leavey Center, the "let's all go the game" approach? Being off campus hurts, sure, but that's been the case for anyone under the age of 50, and the numbers were better than they are now. Apples to apples; oranges to oranges. Is it possible to compare just student attendance between the two eras?Or does that not fit the narrative of the point you're so desperately trying to make?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 13, 2016 16:40:37 GMT -5
Apples to apples; oranges to oranges. Is it possible to compare just student attendance between the two eras?Or does that not fit the narrative of the point you're so desperately trying to make? You're assuming I'm "desparately trying" to make a point on student support. Probably not what you think. Anyway, it's more observational than quantifiable, since GU does not release student attendance numbers, and yes, the Cap Centre did darken the lights on those evenings when it wasn't sold out. But you do get a sense walking on the campus that basketball isn't the big deal it once was.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 13, 2016 16:49:09 GMT -5
Anyway, it's more observational than quantifiable, since GU does not release student attendance numbers, and yes, the Cap Centre did darken the lights on those evenings when it wasn't sold out. But you do get a sense walking on the campus that basketball isn't the big deal it once was. Agree. Build a winner and they will come. In terms of releasing information, any idea on whether Hayes is out for the season?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 13, 2016 18:15:36 GMT -5
Apples to apples; oranges to oranges. Is it possible to compare just student attendance between the two eras?Or does that not fit the narrative of the point you're so desperately trying to make? You're assuming I'm "desparately trying" to make a point on student support. Probably not what you think. Anyway, it's more observational than quantifiable, since GU does not release student attendance numbers, and yes, the Cap Centre did darken the lights on those evenings when it wasn't sold out. But you do get a sense walking on the campus that basketball isn't the big deal it once was. I don't doubt that, but winning a national championship and playing for a championship 3 of 4 years will do wonders for making basketball a big deal on campus. I do think we can potentially win a national championship but I don't see the dominant type of run we had in the 1980s that would position us in a similar place.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Feb 14, 2016 15:10:50 GMT -5
Not to mention many more distractions in DC around GTOWN than Milwaukee and the Marquette campus. That's a double edged sword but one that slices us when we aren't doing well as this season has gone. I just don't buy the argument that Marquette kids go to games because there's less to do in Milwaukee and/or a Georgetown student is busier touring the Smithsonian or curing the common cold than to go to Verizon Center. Winning is great but it is still possible (and sometimes even moreso) to enjoy supporting a team when they need it, not just when they are on the crest of a wave. But I do share the concern that the games are not being promoted among the student body as they should--where is the pre-game promotion, the signs in Leavey Center, the "let's all go the game" approach? Being off campus hurts, sure, but that's been the case for anyone under the age of 50, and the numbers were better than they are now. You may not buy the argument, but it's out there just the same. It's not just "touring" the Smithsonian or doing research, although plenty of kids are doing that too. It's pretty much a cliche at this point that Georgetown students all oversubscribe themselves to a million resume-stuffing activities as they attempt to buttress their applications to Deloitte/Teach for America/whatever. The culture is just different from Marquette, Butler, etc. - and that's before you get into the academics, which are decidedly more demanding (and, I would argue, are more demanding than they were at Georgetown in the early 80s). Weeknight evenings are when campus clubs all have their meetings, so plenty of students are obligated to attend those instead of games. I notice you've been on a promotions kick lately... you really think a lack of "signs in Leavey Center" is what's keeping student attendance low?? I mean, as it is, Chris Grosse is one of the most innovation promotions people out there - he held a Hail to Kale night for women's basketball, for God's sake! And followed it up with a night devoted to beets! He's literally throwing everything and the kitchen sink out there, with Denim Night, America Night, the Carnesseca sweater t-shirt giveaway, etc. etc. Let's face it - these cutesy, kitschy promotions don't go very far with an increasingly overachieving, sophisticated, cosmopolitan student body whose main recreation activities all involve binge drinking. If we could have Dollar Beer Night at Verizon (and roll the drinking age back to what it is in every other developed country on the planet), all of our student attendance problems would be solved. Absent that, though, I have a hard time imagining what sort of "pre-game promotion" would do the trick. Which isn't to say that our in-game promotions aren't mostly soul-deadening and corporate. They are. But that's a marginal factor at most.
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 14, 2016 22:21:02 GMT -5
I think the answer is as simple as it seems. What percentage of the student body, in your estimation, cares about or knows about basketball in general? I really think this is the key question, and why it's so tough for a smaller university that doesn't have a huge state alumni base. More than ever, there are so many different things for college kids to do, that a very large percentage of students truly don't care about basketball. I am not sure that's really any different from previous eras, except that now there are probably more readily available entertainment options (not to mention you pretty much had to go to a game to see it back in the 1980s). In my opinion, except for a smaller base that are die-hards (many of whom probably become the HoyaTalk posters here today - though not in my case - my fandom started after I graduated, sadly), students are always going to be fair weather fans given everything else competing for their attention. When you win, more students will come. When you play a better team, more students will come. When you play on a Saturday, more students will come. It's just the way it is. From the "true fan" perspective, the fair weather fans are annoying (in any sport), but in Georgetown's case, if you want big attendance, you need them. I agree with a lot of this, and I also think some of it has to do with the changes in the power structure of college hoops since GU's glory days thirty years ago. Over time, Georgetown and the Big East have become smaller fish in a bigger pond. To a casual observer, there's nothing really exceptional about the program relative to what else is out there -- wins and losses obviously play a part, but so does the sheer glut of teams getting national or regional TV exposure (Elon, UT-Corpus Christi et al., please call your office). The unfortunate reality is that GU basketball has become more an amenity than an essential part of student life.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 14, 2016 22:36:21 GMT -5
I really think this is the key question, and why it's so tough for a smaller university that doesn't have a huge state alumni base. More than ever, there are so many different things for college kids to do, that a very large percentage of students truly don't care about basketball. I am not sure that's really any different from previous eras, except that now there are probably more readily available entertainment options (not to mention you pretty much had to go to a game to see it back in the 1980s). In my opinion, except for a smaller base that are die-hards (many of whom probably become the HoyaTalk posters here today - though not in my case - my fandom started after I graduated, sadly), students are always going to be fair weather fans given everything else competing for their attention. When you win, more students will come. When you play a better team, more students will come. When you play on a Saturday, more students will come. It's just the way it is. From the "true fan" perspective, the fair weather fans are annoying (in any sport), but in Georgetown's case, if you want big attendance, you need them. I agree with a lot of this, and I also think some of it has to do with the changes in the power structure of college hoops since GU's glory days thirty years ago. Over time, Georgetown and the Big East have become smaller fish in a bigger pond. To a casual observer, there's nothing really exceptional about the program relative to what else is out there -- wins and losses obviously play a part, but so does the sheer glut of teams getting national or regional TV exposure (Elon, UT-Corpus Christi et al., please call your office). The unfortunate reality is that GU basketball has become more an amenity than an essential part of student life. For CBB, we are still getting great exposure albeit without the ESPN monopoly but to mention ELON and UT-CC doesn't make sense? If your point is that we aren't that special and can't compete on national stage with the power teams than refer to other boards about not overspending on this program that doesn't deliver any results in a watered down conference. Same issue, we put all of our budget in men's basketball then expectations should be high. They are not on this board. Doesn't compute. I happen to be one believer that thinks we have a brand (albeit diminishing) that could be very successful but we continue to apologize away why we don't win or are not successful instead of holding ourselves to the same standards in basketball that we do as a University in general. As the years continue to roll on we may not be able to fix this. Somehow Nova is at least carrying the torch for us in the new BE which to me is humiliating.
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 14, 2016 22:48:58 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of this, and I also think some of it has to do with the changes in the power structure of college hoops since GU's glory days thirty years ago. Over time, Georgetown and the Big East have become smaller fish in a bigger pond. To a casual observer, there's nothing really exceptional about the program relative to what else is out there -- wins and losses obviously play a part, but so does the sheer glut of teams getting national or regional TV exposure (Elon, UT-Corpus Christi et al., please call your office). The unfortunate reality is that GU basketball has become more an amenity than an essential part of student life. For CBB, we are still getting great exposure albeit without the ESPN monopoly but to mention ELON and UT-CC doesn't make sense? If your point is that we aren't that special and can't compete on national stage with the power teams than refer to other boards about not overspending on this program that doesn't deliver any results in a watered down conference. Same issue, we put all of our budget in men's basketball then expectations should be high. They are not on this board. Doesn't compute. I happen to be one believer that thinks we have a brand (albeit diminishing) that could be very successful but we continue to apologize away why we don't win or are not successful instead of holding ourselves to the same standards in basketball that we do as a University in general. As the years continue to roll on we may not be able to fix this. Somehow Nova is at least carrying the torch for us in the new BE which to me is humiliating. Elon etc. was an evidently unsuccessful attempt at being funny, but the larger point still holds. On more than one occasion an Elon game has appeared opposite a GU game just a few channels away. The part of the program's history that means anything is now very old - to a lot of today's students, college basketball is college basketball no matter who is playing. They make gestures towards "be true to your school," but they don't lose any sleep over it. There are always other games to watch.
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