SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Feb 8, 2016 16:19:34 GMT -5
We were a 4 seed last year, fine. But the year before that we were dreadful and ended the season with a BE tournament loss to DePaul (the NIT doesn't count). This year we are headed towards a similar path. The final straw in the Esherick era was when he made some comment about how it was unrealistic for Georgetown to expect to be a tournament team year in year out. Unless we are using Esherick's logic, having one decent season (which still did not take us to the NCAA second weekend, nor even the BE tournament final) does not seem to me to be enough to balance out two tournament misses. For a stretch after III took over, we became used to the idea of being a consistently ranked and tournament caliber team. Maybe we were delusional to believe after 2007 that we were back among the elite. Still, I thought when we fired Esherick, we also exorcised the logic that we were essentially a mid major. Getting less out of more is a trend now. We didn't settle for it in 2004 and we shouldnt settle for it in 2016. Maybe III can update his approach and get us back to being a year in year out competitor. If he can't, he should not be our coach, regardless of his last name. Are you sure Esh said that? Sounds like the Joe Lang quote to me... I might be mistaken as to the utterer. But the sentiment is the same. Esherick was fired because the administration understood that that definition of realistic success would not fly with the alumni. Nor should it fly today.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Feb 8, 2016 16:34:18 GMT -5
We were a 4 seed last year, fine. But the year before that we were dreadful and ended the season with a BE tournament loss to DePaul (the NIT doesn't count). This year we are headed towards a similar path. The final straw in the Esherick era was when he made some comment about how it was unrealistic for Georgetown to expect to be a tournament team year in year out. Unless we are using Esherick's logic, having one decent season (which still did not take us to the NCAA second weekend, nor even the BE tournament final) does not seem to me to be enough to balance out two tournament misses. For a stretch after III took over, we became used to the idea of being a consistently ranked and tournament caliber team. Maybe we were delusional to believe after 2007 that we were back among the elite. Still, I thought when we fired Esherick, we also exorcised the logic that we were essentially a mid major. Getting less out of more is a trend now. We didn't settle for it in 2004 and we shouldnt settle for it in 2016. Maybe III can update his approach and get us back to being a year in year out competitor. If he can't, he should not be our coach, regardless of his last name. In the last four years we've gotten a #2 seed and a #4 seed. We also turned over the assistant coaches in 2013 after we had recruiting problems with DSR's class and Reggie Cameron's class. The trend line isn't great, but (1) the season isn't over yet and (2) the talent we all saw on display last year is still on the team--it could be that next year we return to being a top 5 seed if the sophomore class steps up and Derrickson/Govan/Kaleb improve. Maybe we return to a top 5 seed, or maybe the trend line continues. To be clear, I am not in the "fire him and we'll figure it out cause we are Georgetown!" camp. But since 2007 the successes JTIII has had have all been at best qualified successes (yes we got a 2 seed, but we also lost in the first round to some rando school from Florida). It would be nice to have had at least one nice tournament run to balance out the failures. Or something to give us a little bit more hope. This season seemed to be a chance at that redemption---talented sophomore class, exciting freshmen, senior DSR---and instead we have this. How much more patience do you have? What would your breaking point look like?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 8, 2016 16:37:39 GMT -5
Are you sure Esh said that? Sounds like the Joe Lang quote to me... It was Lang: Lang used the interview to clear up contextual issues from his comments in a recent article (“Just Like the Hoyas, Esherick’s Evolving; Young Team, Coach Still Have Ups and Downs,” The Washington Post, Jan. 20) that have sparked controversy on campus. Many students have taken particular offense to statements attributed to Lang, who said that making the NCAA Tournament every year for Georgetown’s men’s basketball team is ”’an unreasonable’ expectation.” Lang said that he was quoted accurately in the article, but said that he “chooses his words very carefully” and noted the difference between “expectation” and “goal.” georgetownvoice.com/2003/02/06/joe-lang-speaks-out/I haven't re-read that in a while. It was tone-deaf even then, and certainly moreso in retrospect, coming as it did in the middle of a lengthy run of NCAA futility (remember that the interview happened two years before Craig got canned). But the statement itself is strangely non-controversial to me in the abstract. Obviously, we can't "expect" to make the NCAAs 100% of the time. The better question to him would have been to say what his reasonable mid and long term expectations were. He probably wouldn't have answered, but it would have been interesting.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 8, 2016 16:51:56 GMT -5
That's exactly my point. That's why I have been saying they need to play them on the same side of the floor. If LJ's has the ball coming off the pick and DSR is in the strong side corner, DSR's defender will have to choose whether to sink and help on a down hill Peak or stay with a strong perimeter scorer in DSR leading to either a 1 on 1 driving opportunity for LJ on the other teams post with Peak having an angle and head of steam or a wide open 3 in the corner for DSR if his man helps on a driving Peak. We need a hoyatalk telestrator. My point is that the help is most likely to come from the weak side rather than the strong side anyway. So DSR's defender (if on the strong side) isn't always forced to make a choice. (Either of our examples requires an LJ with vision to make the pass....) Lol...we need to get Dan on the Hoyatalk teleostrator asap! Getting back to the play illustration. The weak side defender would have to take the rolling big man in Hayes or Govan and if he is late on his rotation like Reggie Cameron was against seton hall in this exact same sequence, they would get walled off by the rolling big man leading to at worst an open layup, free throws for our big man or hopefully a 3 point play on a drop off pass by Peak to the rolling big. If our post player roles hard, he could wall off and eliminate the weak side defender from being able to effect or challenge LJ coming off the pick and attacking the basket. That's why the strong side defender would be the only real defender who could rotate and challenge a driving Peak but if you put DSR in the corner on the strong side, his defender would have a quandary of either dropping into the key to challenge LJ's drive or staying in the corner with a strong perimeter shooter in DSR. One thing we definitely agree on is that Peak would be forced to make the right decisions. I think he could do it. At worst it would continue to develop his all around game. One thing I know for sure is that the offense becomes stagnant and is to easy to defend with DSR coming off the pick and roll.
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 8, 2016 18:05:24 GMT -5
Are you sure Esh said that? Sounds like the Joe Lang quote to me... I might be mistaken as to the utterer. But the sentiment is the same. Esherick was fired because the administration understood that that definition of realistic success would not fly with the alumni. Nor should it fly today. I'm not sure anyone really knows all the details behind the Esh saga -- it went down in a weird way, not long after President D. made a very strong "he's our guy" statement that went well beyond the standard vote of confidence/kiss of death. I think your take re: alumni discontent about the big picture is accurate, but there was also a more immediate concern that the program would continue trending towards Rutgers/DePaul irrelevance if something wasn't done quickly -- it was not a good situation. The current scenario isn't so dire.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 8, 2016 18:50:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure anyone really knows all the details behind the Esh saga -- it went down in a weird way, not long after President D. made a very strong "he's our guy" statement that went well beyond the standard vote of confidence/kiss of death. I think your take re: alumni discontent about the big picture is accurate, but there was also a more immediate concern that the program would continue trending towards Rutgers/DePaul irrelevance if something wasn't done quickly -- it was not a good situation. The current scenario isn't so dire. For those that weren't around here back then (and yes, this was a busy board...), Craig's contract was renewed in 2003, and given an clear vote of confidence in Feb. 2004. Then, his quote before the Virginia Tech game ("I ain't going anywhere. I may be here for another 30 years. And you can quote me on that...") seemed a snub to the DeGioia administration, and the wheels began to turn. Alumni and/or student grumbling wasn't the factor. Craig Esherick always had a healthy dose of hubris, but he was a loyal alumnus and someone that wanted to do right for the school--even his most ardent critics generally would concur with this. But I think this contributes to the bitterness that is still out there. He's likely not stepped foot on the campus in 12 years, and is a consistent no-show at every basketball alumni event and reunion since. Plenty of long time coaches get fired, but unless there's an NCAA sanction or criminal offense in tow, most get some sort of assistant athletic director post or generic fundraising job as a polite way to pay out the contract. Instead, the fourth longest-tenured coach in GU athletic history parted ways with a two paragraph news release.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 8, 2016 20:00:12 GMT -5
Esh got a raw deal.
His greatest strength got the best of him in the end...his loyalty.
He took one for the team in more ways than one.
Esh probably thought he had backing/support when in the end...he did not. Otherwise, he wouldn't have made the statement to defend himself from the critics in the manner in which he did.
And then to see who was hired after he was fired....well....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what really happened.
Don't blame him for not coming back. Treat a man with respect. He may not have been a good head coach, but he didn't deserve how he was treated in the end given the service he gave to the school and program. He is a Hoya. It is a shame what happened.
But back to JTIII. JTIII is a great coach. But change is inevitable. Coack K isn't the same coach he was back in the 90's. He has made changes since then in his approach when things started growing stale as a program. Yeah, it is Coach K. But still...if he changed and adapted given all that he accomplished even back in the 90's...then nobody is above changing and improving as a coach.
JTIII has to recruit better in the backcourt. You have to get better guard play. It has been a problem for years. One maybe two adequate ballhandlers on a major-conference basketball team is baffling. You are going to be limited. Particularly in the NCAA tournament. We can recruit and stockpile the forwards and develop the centers. But just can't seem to get quality depth in the backcourt. Maybe it is his offense or his philosophy. Don't know, but something has to change. III has to upgrade the backcourt. The man can coach, but he is hurting himself not addressing these issues. He upgraded and made changes to his assistant coaching staff. But the problems still remain. So at some point, you have to look at the coach.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 8, 2016 20:31:33 GMT -5
Esh got a raw deal. His greatest strength got the best of him in the end...his loyalty. He took one for the team in more ways than one. Esh probably thought he had backing/support when in the end...he did not. Otherwise, he wouldn't have made the statement to defend himself from the critics in the manner in which he did. And then to see who was hired after he was fired....well....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what really happened. Don't blame him for not coming back. Treat a man with respect. He may not have been a good head coach, but he didn't deserve how he was treated in the end given the service he gave to the school and program. He is a Hoya. It is a shame what happened. But back to JTIII. JTIII is a great coach. But change is inevitable. Coack K isn't the same coach he was back in the 90's. He has made changes since then in his approach when things started growing stale as a program. Yeah, it is Coach K. But still...if he changed and adapted given all that he accomplished even back in the 90's...then nobody is above changing and improving as a coach. JTIII has to recruit better in the backcourt. You have to get better guard play. It has been a problem for years. One maybe two adequate ballhandlers on a major-conference basketball team is baffling. You are going to be limited. Particularly in the NCAA tournament. We can recruit and stockpile the forwards and develop the centers. But just can't seem to get quality depth in the backcourt. Maybe it is his offense or his philosophy. Don't know, but something has to change. III has to upgrade the backcourt. The man can coach, but he is hurting himself not addressing these issues. He upgraded and made changes to his assistant coaching staff. But the problems still remain. So at some point, you have to look at the coach. Raw deal? That's the funniest thing posted on here in a long time.
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Feb 8, 2016 21:01:17 GMT -5
Esh got a raw deal. His greatest strength got the best of him in the end...his loyalty. He took one for the team in more ways than one. Esh probably thought he had backing/support when in the end...he did not. Otherwise, he wouldn't have made the statement to defend himself from the critics in the manner in which he did. And then to see who was hired after he was fired....well....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what really happened. Don't blame him for not coming back. Treat a man with respect. He may not have been a good head coach, but he didn't deserve how he was treated in the end given the service he gave to the school and program. He is a Hoya. It is a shame what happened. But back to JTIII. JTIII is a great coach. But change is inevitable. Coack K isn't the same coach he was back in the 90's. He has made changes since then in his approach when things started growing stale as a program. Yeah, it is Coach K. But still...if he changed and adapted given all that he accomplished even back in the 90's...then nobody is above changing and improving as a coach. JTIII has to recruit better in the backcourt. You have to get better guard play. It has been a problem for years. One maybe two adequate ballhandlers on a major-conference basketball team is baffling. You are going to be limited. Particularly in the NCAA tournament. We can recruit and stockpile the forwards and develop the centers. But just can't seem to get quality depth in the backcourt. Maybe it is his offense or his philosophy. Don't know, but something has to change. III has to upgrade the backcourt. The man can coach, but he is hurting himself not addressing these issues. He upgraded and made changes to his assistant coaching staff. But the problems still remain. So at some point, you have to look at the coach. Raw deal? That's the funniest thing posted on here in a long time. Anyone recall back then if there was talk about coach Reilly? I always thought once eshrick went south, what if Reilly had been picked to succeed jr instead of esh? I always thought those two were jr s left and right hand. Just curious because I think Reilly left after not getting the chance spot. But I was fairly young so don't know the details.
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Feb 8, 2016 21:33:45 GMT -5
Living in the DMV might be a huge negative for some. It's expensive to live, the house you get living in GA or NC or anywhere but NY or California, the traffic sucks, public schools are so-so unless you live in Montgomery Co, MD or Northern VA so if you've got kids you're likely forking over private school tuition. With the salary that a coach can make here, the living expense is relatively negated. JTIII has at least 2 homes... One house in the DMV area and a 2nd house in the New England area... I believe it is located in Martha's Vineyard. III is also an Ivy League grad and son of coaching legend. Pretty sure he had some money before getting the job. No matter how much money you make, living in the DMV has some drawbacks.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 8, 2016 21:47:03 GMT -5
With the salary that a coach can make here, the living expense is relatively negated. JTIII has at least 2 homes... One house in the DMV area and a 2nd house in the New England area... I believe it is located in Martha's Vineyard. III is also an Ivy League grad and son of coaching legend. Pretty sure he had some money before getting the job. No matter how much money you make, living in the DMV has some drawbacks. JT2 did quite well for himself. That doesn't make his son wealthy. The Georgetown job was a good opportunity for JT3. Regardless, it was a misleading "argument" to start. JT3 wasn't making over 2 mil a year when he started at Georgetown. He was originally making less than 400k. Not only do you not get a mansion in the DMV for that, you maybe get a tree fort in Martha's Vineyard. In a format with which TJI is familiar, do you know why he got such a large raise? I'm not saying that the performance in terms of W/L is what you'd expect for that money this year. But that's a ridiculous conversation as it's a multi-year contract that isn't able to be voided. Talk about the level of coaching or if he's offered a new contract at the end of this one if it it should be for less money. Many points here have been valid. Only an established, proven coach gets that kind of money at any school. For that money, if a guy that warranted it were available, he'd take a different job if one were available. A coach like that would have multiple high major offers. Why would that person step into the vacuum/crapstorm that would be created by JT3 being given the axe not even considering all of the other difficulties/peculiarities that come with being the Georgetown HC?
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Feb 8, 2016 22:04:31 GMT -5
The reality is the 2 mil is not all that fancy in terms of the complete packages other highly compensated coaches are getting.many will show a salary considerably less than the 2 mil but with multiple side deals, engagements, tv shows that combined exceed or at least approximate the base. The little that he may have in certain other income arrangements such as basketball camp most likely goes to the staff.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Feb 8, 2016 22:18:59 GMT -5
IF the job were open, I think Archie Miller would be the dream. After that, there's not a lot of good options. I don't trust Amaker to do better in the Big East than JT3, especially considering he failed miserably at Michigan. Harvard is also 9-13 this year. The other retreads are retreads for a reason. A lot of the mid-major programs that you trust to do a good job hiring have had turnover recently, so the coaches are still too unproven. Looking at KenPom, other than Dayton and Gonzaga, the only mid-majors in the top 60 this year are: Wichita St. (Marshall isn't leaving for anything but a top 10 program), Valpo (Bryce Drew could be interesting), Cincinnati (if you thought our offense was bad...), St. Mary's (Randy Bennett's been there awhile, but I honestly don't know much about him other than he can recruit Australia), VCU (coach is brand new), UConn (coach is an alum), Arkansas-Little Rock (coach is brand new), Stony Brook (coach played at UConn, hasn't made the NCAAs yet), Monmouth (2nd winning season, hasn't made even the CBI yet), Yale (one NIT in 17 years, no NCAA tournaments), and Tulsa (Frank Haith). If UAB makes a run of any kind in the tournament this season, Jerod Haase's name will get thrown around when bigger jobs become available. I'm so glad someone threw out Haase's name. I go to almost every home UAB game and happen to think he is a phenomenal coach. He has built a really strong program basically from scratch. Although historically a strong mid major, Mike Davis just eviscerated UAB with really poor recruiting risks that didn't pan out academically. One of his years they were basically left with six players and one walk-on brought over mid year from the football team. Haase has completely changed the culture. Not to mention, he has really sold the program in the Birmingham community and upped attendance. Obviously take my comments as a grain of salt because I don't think a change is likely in the cards for Georgetown, but Haase is a terrific coach. The power school that gets him will be lucky. That said, don't be shocked if he stays at least one more year. There is only 1 senior on the current UAB squad, and they could be a dark horse team to make a really deep run next year I think.
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Loyal Hoya
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Feb 8, 2016 22:41:17 GMT -5
Esh got a raw deal. His greatest strength got the best of him in the end...his loyalty. He took one for the team in more ways than one. Esh probably thought he had backing/support when in the end...he did not. Otherwise, he wouldn't have made the statement to defend himself from the critics in the manner in which he did. And then to see who was hired after he was fired....well....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what really happened. Don't blame him for not coming back. Treat a man with respect. He may not have been a good head coach, but he didn't deserve how he was treated in the end given the service he gave to the school and program. He is a Hoya. It is a shame what happened. But back to JTIII. JTIII is a great coach. But change is inevitable. Coack K isn't the same coach he was back in the 90's. He has made changes since then in his approach when things started growing stale as a program. Yeah, it is Coach K. But still...if he changed and adapted given all that he accomplished even back in the 90's...then nobody is above changing and improving as a coach. JTIII has to recruit better in the backcourt. You have to get better guard play. It has been a problem for years. One maybe two adequate ballhandlers on a major-conference basketball team is baffling. You are going to be limited. Particularly in the NCAA tournament. We can recruit and stockpile the forwards and develop the centers. But just can't seem to get quality depth in the backcourt. Maybe it is his offense or his philosophy. Don't know, but something has to change. III has to upgrade the backcourt. The man can coach, but he is hurting himself not addressing these issues. He upgraded and made changes to his assistant coaching staff. But the problems still remain. So at some point, you have to look at the coach. Raw deal? That's the funniest thing posted on here in a long time. I don't want to speak for the_way, but I think his point is that somebody that was with Georgetown for thirty years deserved to be treated with dignity. I have no idea whether we handled the situation with class or not, but I don't think it is a "funny" to suggest that that was what was required of us.
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Post by puppydog100 on Feb 8, 2016 23:02:28 GMT -5
GU would never terminate JTIII, but I would not be shocked if he resigned to move out from under Pop's shadow, especially when GU's basketball program is heading down the slippery slope. JTIII stock has fallen, so a big time coaching gig is probably not in the cards. I think he would make a terrific AD.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 8, 2016 23:23:02 GMT -5
GU would never terminate JTIII, but I would not be shocked if he resigned to move out from under Pop's shadow, especially when GU's basketball program is heading down the slippery slope. JTIII stock has fallen, so a big time coaching gig is probably not in the cards. I think he would make a terrific AD. You're not going to have a lot of company in that view. Do you think that JT3 wasn't aware that Big John had coached at Georgetown when he took the job? And what's the slippery slope? One season that isn't yet over? JT3's biggest weakness in his tenure has been recruiting followed by in-game coaching. The recruiting has improved but not to the point that it needs to at the guard position. He's gotten quite a bit better at adjusting from season to season and in-season but, to a lesser degree, in-game. He took the job at Georgetown knowing the shadow his dad casts. That hasn't changed. And let's not act like Big John didn't have bad years. On the recruiting front, he mailed in a lot of years. The same can't be said of the current coach. If AI didn't exist, many of us would feel very differently about the tail end of Big John's coaching career. JT3 gets after it on the recruiting trail and has upgraded his staff accordingly. And, he's a coach. Why would he want to be an AD? With the money he's made, he could, likely, retire instead or take a much less hands on/day to day type position. You can throw whatever you want at the wall to see if it sticks to support your own hopes but JT3 is a basketball coach at a good University with a track record of success with a good salary and a high level of job security. Why would he voluntarily abandon that position?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 9, 2016 0:44:47 GMT -5
I think that a lot of people don't realize that making the tournament as often as we do - regardless of post-season success - is actually quite an accomplishment. It may not be what all of us want, but it's actually quite difficult. Seriously, how many coaches have made the NCAA tournament as many times as JT3 has while he has been at Georgetown? Not many. And most of the coaches that have had such success are the Bill Self, Coach K., Bo Ryan, Roy Williams types who aren't going anywhere in their current jobs (barring scandal bad enough to warrant getting rid of them).
I am as disappointed as all of you are that we haven't made it to a Sweet 16 since 2007 - hell, my primary time being such a huge fan of the team actually started right after that run. My desire to go to a Sweet 16+ is incredibly high. All that being said, you cannot make the Sweet 16 if you don't get there. And we have generally made it there with good, high seeds.
Let me put it this way. If we were looking for a JT3 replacement, and there was a coach that made the tournament 8 of 11 seasons, two Sweet 16's and a Final Four, with a conference tournament title, a couple regular season Big East titles, and very high NCAA seeds, people on this Board would be going nuts over trying to get that guy to coach our team. Instead, we have him, and people want to get rid of him.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 9, 2016 5:07:22 GMT -5
GU would never terminate JTIII, but I would not be shocked if he resigned to move out from under Pop's shadow, especially when GU's basketball program is heading down the slippery slope. JTIII stock has fallen, so a big time coaching gig is probably not in the cards. I think he would make a terrific AD. I was premature. THIS is the funniest thing posted on here in a while.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 9, 2016 8:42:35 GMT -5
GU would never terminate JTIII, but I would not be shocked if he resigned to move out from under Pop's shadow, especially when GU's basketball program is heading down the slippery slope. JTIII stock has fallen, so a big time coaching gig is probably not in the cards. I think he would make a terrific AD. JT3 is 49, makes $3M a year and has job security. Why would he retire?
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 9, 2016 8:48:14 GMT -5
The Hoyas Gtown offense, there's nothing wrong with it. It just depends on whose running it and making critical decisions on a "consistent" basis IMO. glidehoyas.wordpress.com/
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