|
Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2016 18:46:35 GMT -5
TJIHoyas wanted Anthony Grant, the guy who was fired from Alabama and was at VCU before Smart. I think realistically you are looking at getting guys from lower mid majors who have no name or guys like Grant, Seth Greenberg or Lavin who have failed and will take any job that gives them money. I see you feel for that too...making 4 Broncos or Panthers, TJI?
|
|
This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
|
Post by This Just In on Feb 7, 2016 19:19:42 GMT -5
I see you feel for that too...making 4 Broncos or Panthers, TJI? I took the Panthers, you? Currently 10-0 Denver.
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 7, 2016 19:37:43 GMT -5
Amaker? Wouldn't the object be to get someone who can coach? Well Harvard has had more wins in the NCAA tournament in the last few years than we have, so one could make the case that his record is better than III's.... But my point is just that there may not be many viable alternatives out there to choose from. Actually, this isn't true. Since 2012, Harvard has two NCAA wins, and we have two NCAA wins. But I agree, there just aren't coaches with JT3's record of consistently making the tournament (and with high seeds, no less) out there who would be willing to take the job. We've gone over this a million times. The $2+ million we spend on JT3 is not relevant because the coaches who deserve that kind of money would by and large never leave their current positions or they would never come to Georgetown. And this doesn't even account for the fact that there are many coaches making nearly or more than $2 million with much worse records than JT3. I recognize that the last 3 years haven't been the best in JT3's tenure, but we were a 4 seed last year. Yes, perhaps we were overseeded a bit, but the idea that JT3 has suddenly collapsed and urgently needs replacement is silly. And as others have said, you better have a good idea who you are going to replace him with before you essentially alienate the family and players who made Georgetown what is today. There's always David Leitao. After all, he was mentioned in connection with the job back in 2004.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,812
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 7, 2016 19:38:01 GMT -5
It reminds me a little of the Mark Richt situation at UGA. Very popular coach, career unquestionably a success, but it was incredibly evident to UGA fans they were underachieving every year, the trend was one of backsliding not improving and it was simply time for a change. I really like him as a person, but it's clearly time to go in a new direction. When we start comparing Georgetown to SEC teams, it underscores why this argument is morphing into foolishness. Putting aside the adage that Georgetown doesn't fire coaches, but they can fire themselves (Keith Brown, Matt Kerwick, Pat Henner), Coach Thompson has not, and will not, join that list. Nine underclassmen, two injuries, and a bad start to the season is a recipe for trouble, but it's not something malevolent. Yes, we all know that the big building down the hill is not the John F. Magee Intercollegiate Athletic Center. Regardless, Georgetown (read=Jack DeGioia) has many more important things to do right now than worry why Georgetown is 13-11 and he's taken the long view on this. Yes, he cut ties with Esherick, but only following Craig's unnecessary "30 more years" outburst before the Virginia Tech game. (Had Craig not said that, he might have stayed around a lot longer than many here might have thought.) John III isn't about to make that mistake, and as long as the team is academically proficient, play by the rules, and do not embarrass the University, coaches at GU get a lot of job security as a result. And of course, there's a major financial concern. Craig Esherick made $249K a year, where a buyout was painful but financially tolerable. John III makes $2.8 million a year and if he signed the same extension as he did in 2007, he's still got 5 or 6 years on his contract. No one, repeat, no one at Georgetown has the will nor the way to spend $15-20 million on a buyout. Period. I would caution posters that ramble on about coach to understand that a coach is only as good as his team's output. In 2012, Villanova finished 13-19 with a lineup that included the talented likes of Darrun Hillard, JayVaughn Pinkston, Maalik Wayns and Maurice Sutton, yet couldn't win games and you could have found plenty of boo-birds out there carping on Jay Wright's future on the Main Line with the lack of performance on the court. Three years later, that team was 33-3, and tomorrow they're likely to be ranked #1 in the AP poll. It didn't make 13-19 any less palatable, but that's why long term decisions are vital for long-term success. Can the Hoyas play better? Yes. Can the staff coach better? Yes. Do we have to slog through a few more games? Yes. But things will get better.
|
|
swhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,137
|
Post by swhoya on Feb 7, 2016 20:26:29 GMT -5
It reminds me a little of the Mark Richt situation at UGA. Very popular coach, career unquestionably a success, but it was incredibly evident to UGA fans they were underachieving every year, the trend was one of backsliding not improving and it was simply time for a change. I really like him as a person, but it's clearly time to go in a new direction. When we start comparing Georgetown to SEC teams, it underscores why this argument is morphing into foolishness. Putting aside the adage that Georgetown doesn't fire coaches, but they can fire themselves (Keith Brown, Matt Kerwick, Pat Henner), Coach Thompson has not, and will not, join that list. Nine underclassmen, two injuries, and a bad start to the season is a recipe for trouble, but it's not something malevolent. Yes, we all know that the big building down the hill is not the John F. Magee Intercollegiate Athletic Center. Regardless, Georgetown (read=Jack DeGioia) has many more important things to do right now than worry why Georgetown is 13-11 and he's taken the long view on this. Yes, he cut ties with Esherick, but only following Craig's unnecessary "30 more years" outburst before the Virginia Tech game. (Had Craig not said that, he might have stayed around a lot longer than many here might have thought.) John III isn't about to make that mistake, and as long as the team is academically proficient, play by the rules, and do not embarrass the University, coaches at GU get a lot of job security as a result. And of course, there's a major financial concern. Craig Esherick made $249K a year, where a buyout was painful but financially tolerable. John III makes $2.8 million a year and if he signed the same extension as he did in 2007, he's still got 5 or 6 years on his contract. No one, repeat, no one at Georgetown has the will nor the way to spend $15-20 million on a buyout. Period. I would caution posters that ramble on about coach to understand that a coach is only as good as his team's output. In 2012, Villanova finished 13-19 with a lineup that included the talented likes of Darrun Hillard, JayVaughn Pinkston, Maalik Wayns and Maurice Sutton, yet couldn't win games and you could have found plenty of boo-birds out there carping on Jay Wright's future on the Main Line with the lack of performance on the court. Three years later, that team was 33-3, and tomorrow they're likely to be ranked #1 in the AP poll. It didn't make 13-19 any less palatable, but that's why long term decisions are vital for long-term success. Can the Hoyas play better? Yes. Can the staff coach better? Yes. Do we have to slog through a few more games? Yes. But things will get better. Far too level-headed for the Internet...
|
|
Loyal Hoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 554
|
Post by Loyal Hoya on Feb 7, 2016 20:57:02 GMT -5
Among Big East coaches, only Jay Wright is more accomplished than JT III. Like JT III, Wright has been to the Final 4 once, won the BE Reg season title three times, and the Big East tournament title once. The only thing that separates them (at least before this year) is that Wright has made it to the Sweet 16 more consistently than JT III has. Wright also has 12 career NCAA appearances compared to 10 for JT III. (JT III has three Ivy League titles, while Wright has two America East regular season titles along with two America East tourney titles).
After that are three very good coaches (in my opinion), Greg McDermott, Chris Mack, and Ed Cooley. McDermott has six NCAA appearances, three Missouri Valley Conference tourney titles, and one MVC regular season title. Chris Mack has five NCAA appearances, three sweet sixteens, and two Atlantic 10 titles. Ed Cooley has two NCAA appearances, a Big East tournament title, and a MAAC Regular season title.
The entire list of active coaches who have ten or more NCAA appearances, have been to the Final Four, and have never been found guilty of major NCAA violations is very small. I can only come up with nine people: Coach K, Izzo, Wright, III, Bruce Weber, Lon Kruger, Tubby Smith, Thad Matta, Gregg Marshall... Am I missing anybody? Kansas was on probation for three years due to actions of both Roy Williams and Bill Self so they are both out; Beilein has 9 appearances plus one at the Div II level; Crean has 8 appearances; Smart has 5 appearances; Boeheim, Pitino, Huggins, Roy W, and Calipari have all run programs that have fallen short of the ethical standards that I would demand at Georgetown.
I only offer this as perspective. It does not mean that JT III should be able to rest on his laurels forever. And I share the sense that our progress has stalled and has not been as consistently excellent as I would like. But, realistically, the chance that any new coach that we choose would surpass III's accomplishments is pretty remote. Why do we think that we will do any better than Illinois or Minnesota when they dumped Bruce Weber and Tubby Smith. Personally, I'd take JT III over John Groce or Richard Pitino any day.
|
|
3xhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by 3xhoya on Feb 7, 2016 23:10:05 GMT -5
I will ask this again, what is so inherently bad about the Georgetown job that nobody would want to come here? Basically the players have to go to class, that's about it. Seems like otherwise it would be a pretty goos job.
Pay is excellent as documented Name brand Excellent school reputation (I guess most here think this is a minus) New practice facility Get to recruit the DMV Get to live in the DMV I'm sure there is more but this is what I cam up with off the top of my head very quickly
|
|
mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
|
Post by mfk24 on Feb 7, 2016 23:25:54 GMT -5
I will ask this again, what is so inherently bad about the Georgetown job that nobody would want to come here? Basically the players have to go to class, that's about it. Seems like otherwise it would be a pretty goos job. Pay is excellent as documented Name brand Excellent school reputation (I guess most here think this is a minus) New practice facility Get to recruit the DMV Get to live in the DMV I'm sure there is more but this is what I cam up with off the top of my head very quickly Living in the DMV might be a huge negative for some. It's expensive to live, the house you get living in GA or NC or anywhere but NY or California, the traffic sucks, public schools are so-so unless you live in Montgomery Co, MD or Northern VA so if you've got kids you're likely forking over private school tuition.
|
|
TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
|
Post by TBird41 on Feb 7, 2016 23:35:32 GMT -5
IF the job were open, I think Archie Miller would be the dream. After that, there's not a lot of good options. I don't trust Amaker to do better in the Big East than JT3, especially considering he failed miserably at Michigan. Harvard is also 9-13 this year. The other retreads are retreads for a reason. A lot of the mid-major programs that you trust to do a good job hiring have had turnover recently, so the coaches are still too unproven. Looking at KenPom, other than Dayton and Gonzaga, the only mid-majors in the top 60 this year are:
Wichita St. (Marshall isn't leaving for anything but a top 10 program), Valpo (Bryce Drew could be interesting), Cincinnati (if you thought our offense was bad...), St. Mary's (Randy Bennett's been there awhile, but I honestly don't know much about him other than he can recruit Australia), VCU (coach is brand new), UConn (coach is an alum), Arkansas-Little Rock (coach is brand new), Stony Brook (coach played at UConn, hasn't made the NCAAs yet), Monmouth (2nd winning season, hasn't made even the CBI yet), Yale (one NIT in 17 years, no NCAA tournaments), and Tulsa (Frank Haith).
|
|
This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
|
Post by This Just In on Feb 7, 2016 23:40:22 GMT -5
I will ask this again, what is so inherently bad about the Georgetown job that nobody would want to come here? Basically the players have to go to class, that's about it. Seems like otherwise it would be a pretty goos job. Pay is excellent as documented Name brand Excellent school reputation (I guess most here think this is a minus) New practice facility Get to recruit the DMV Get to live in the DMV I'm sure there is more but this is what I cam up with off the top of my head very quickly Living in the DMV might be a huge negative for some. It's expensive to live, the house you get living in GA or NC or anywhere but NY or California, the traffic sucks, public schools are so-so unless you live in Montgomery Co, MD or Northern VA so if you've got kids you're likely forking over private school tuition. With the salary that a coach can make here, the living expense is relatively negated. JTIII has at least 2 homes... One house in the DMV area and a 2nd house in the New England area... I believe it is located in Martha's Vineyard.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,391
|
Post by prhoya on Feb 8, 2016 0:08:53 GMT -5
To put it in perspective, the last time GU conducted a coaching search was 1972 and the Cowboys had just won Super Bowl VI.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,812
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 8, 2016 0:18:04 GMT -5
To put it in perspective, the last time GU conducted a coaching search was 1972 and the Cowboys had just won Super Bowl VI. I assume you are talking about men's basketball. Anyway, there was a coaching search in 2004 and was more thorough than many of this board understood at the time.
|
|
deacon
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,850
|
Post by deacon on Feb 8, 2016 0:27:26 GMT -5
IF the job were open, I think Archie Miller would be the dream. After that, there's not a lot of good options. I don't trust Amaker to do better in the Big East than JT3, especially considering he failed miserably at Michigan. Harvard is also 9-13 this year. The other retreads are retreads for a reason. A lot of the mid-major programs that you trust to do a good job hiring have had turnover recently, so the coaches are still too unproven. Looking at KenPom, other than Dayton and Gonzaga, the only mid-majors in the top 60 this year are: Wichita St. (Marshall isn't leaving for anything but a top 10 program), Valpo (Bryce Drew could be interesting), Cincinnati (if you thought our offense was bad...), St. Mary's (Randy Bennett's been there awhile, but I honestly don't know much about him other than he can recruit Australia), VCU (coach is brand new), UConn (coach is an alum), Arkansas-Little Rock (coach is brand new), Stony Brook (coach played at UConn, hasn't made the NCAAs yet), Monmouth (2nd winning season, hasn't made even the CBI yet), Yale (one NIT in 17 years, no NCAA tournaments), and Tulsa (Frank Haith). If UAB makes a run of any kind in the tournament this season, Jerod Haase's name will get thrown around when bigger jobs become available.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,391
|
Post by prhoya on Feb 8, 2016 0:38:48 GMT -5
To put it in perspective, the last time GU conducted a coaching search was 1972 and the Cowboys had just won Super Bowl VI. I assume you are talking about men's basketball. Anyway, there was a coaching search in 2004 and was more thorough than many of this board understood at the time. Yes, men's basketball. If it was "thorough", who were the other candidates?
|
|
Loyal Hoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 554
|
Post by Loyal Hoya on Feb 8, 2016 6:35:09 GMT -5
I will ask this again, what is so inherently bad about the Georgetown job that nobody would want to come here? Basically the players have to go to class, that's about it. Seems like otherwise it would be a pretty goos job. Pay is excellent as documented Name brand Excellent school reputation (I guess most here think this is a minus) New practice facility Get to recruit the DMV Get to live in the DMV I'm sure there is more but this is what I cam up with off the top of my head very quickly I think it is a great job. I don't think JT III should or will lose his job. If he did, we would probably be the top school looking this year. Even then, our best candidate might be Archie Miller. MSU Associate HC Duane Stephens will also eventually be a good head coach somewhere. I still think there is a good possibility that whoever came in would give us hope for a few years, hit a plateau after 4 or 5 years, and pretty soon there is an Archie Miller coaching discussion thread on Hoyatalk. It is a competitive sport, and more often than not, that's how the trajectory goes.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,464
|
Post by TC on Feb 8, 2016 7:01:11 GMT -5
My biggest concern - only one player, LJ Peak, is a better player today than he was on opening day. One. That is largely on the staff. And yet that's a horrible benchmark. Guys generally make improvements YoY, not inseason. Reggie Cameron is a completely different player than he was a year ago, improved a ton, and yet you're not including him in your set. Bradley Hayes improved a huge amount from his sophomore year to today. The rest of the team is too young or too injured to judge whether they'll improve.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,464
|
Post by TC on Feb 8, 2016 7:03:57 GMT -5
There are bunch of guys on here who want to cut the funding and put it in football. Oh man, I don't think I've ever laughed harder than I have at this idea. Thank you - after reading the last 10 or so pages I really needed something funny.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,464
|
Post by TC on Feb 8, 2016 7:10:48 GMT -5
I will ask this again, what is so inherently bad about the Georgetown job that nobody would want to come here? Basically the players have to go to class, that's about it. Seems like otherwise it would be a pretty goos job. Pay is excellent as documented Name brand Excellent school reputation (I guess most here think this is a minus) New practice facility Get to recruit the DMV Get to live in the DMV I'm sure there is more but this is what I cam up with off the top of my head very quickly I like how you shoehorn in "new practice facility" with no irony, given JTIII has had no chance to benefit from it. Not a major conference Televised on a channel no one watches First two major impediments in selling a top recruit Horrible student fan base that thinks a trip to the MCI Center on the metro is too far Questionable decision makers (if they fire JTIII, with the Thompson Center opening) Gigantic political block will shun you (entire Thompson family / major program alumni) But yeah, aside from those things, great job.
|
|
3xhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,171
|
Post by 3xhoya on Feb 8, 2016 7:25:00 GMT -5
I will ask this again, what is so inherently bad about the Georgetown job that nobody would want to come here? Basically the players have to go to class, that's about it. Seems like otherwise it would be a pretty goos job. Pay is excellent as documented Name brand Excellent school reputation (I guess most here think this is a minus) New practice facility Get to recruit the DMV Get to live in the DMV I'm sure there is more but this is what I cam up with off the top of my head very quickly I like how you shoehorn in "new practice facility" with no irony, given JTIII has had no chance to benefit from it. Not a major conference Televised on a channel no one watches First two major impediments in selling a top recruit Horrible student fan base that thinks a trip to the MCI Center on the metro is too far Questionable decision makers (if they fire JTIII, with the Thompson Center opening) Gigantic political block will shun you (entire Thompson family / major program alumni) But yeah, aside from those things, great job. I included it because that is one of the first things someone points out, that we have terrible facilities. Like it or not it is being built and yes it is named after his father. It may not be time to make a move yet but at some point it may be necessary to put the program ahead of nepotism and fear, and that may be sooner than a lot of people think. That horrible student fan base wasn't so horrible a few years ago when the team was winning. The students used to overflow into the 400 section. Villanova is able to pull in recruits in the same mid-major conference as us playing on the same TV channel, the difference is they are winning, this goes a long way.
|
|
bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,519
|
Post by bostonfan on Feb 8, 2016 8:49:24 GMT -5
I don't see any way the school fires JT III in the near future. They are just about to open a hugely expensive new practice facility that will be named after his father who is still a major force within the school. The only opportunity for a coaching change will be if JT III decides on his own that is time for him to move on ( very unlikely!!!!)
If that happened in a few years you might want to consider Ewing Jr for the job. He seems very active on the sidelines during the games and he may be someone they are grooming for the future, but he is not ready to be a D1 head coach at this point.
|
|