hoopsmccan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,424
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Post by hoopsmccan on Nov 6, 2015 18:23:55 GMT -5
I understand how Villanova is the easiest comparison- but for the Big East to succeed, TV contract and all, Georgetown basketball has to carry the league. Villanova is not a national brand, Georgetown is. Georgetown is THE ONLY national brand in the big east. Much of that is owed to JT2, Mourning, Mutombo, Ewing, Iverson, and their lasting impact on the NBA/ post NBA careers. To the discussion at hand... I'm not saying we need guards who then excel in the NBA, I'm saying that we need DSR type guards, at a minimum, to solve our March woes. Below is a list of the lead guards from every national champion going back to 01. And yes, I know, it shouldn't be our expectation to think title every year. But the bottom line is this: Georgetown basketball under JTIII has been EXCELLENT. We consistently have good to very good regular seasons, but no one, excluding Hoya fans, remember any of it. Ask someone about Georgetown basketball over the last decade, and the first thing they say is "March." The staff has to figure this out. 01- Duke: Duhon, Jason Williams 02- Maryland: Dixon, Blake 03- Cuse: MacNamara, Edelin 04- UCONN: Talik Brown, Ben Gordon 05- UNC: Felton, McCants 06- Florida: Taureen Green, Lee Humphrey 07- Florida: Taureen Green, Lee Humphrey 08- Kansas: Chalmers, Collins, Rush 09- UNC: Lawson, Ellington 10- Duke: Scheyer, Nolan Smith 11- UCONN: Walker, Lamb, Napier 12- Kentucky: Teague, Lamb 13- LOU: Siva, Russ Smith 14- UCONN: Napier, Boatright 15- Duke: Cook, Tyus Jones. I'm looking forward to "16- G'town: Smith-Rivera, Peak". That list doesn't blow me away. If they won a championship instead of flaming out, I think "G'town: Wright, Freeman" or "G'town: Starks, Smith-Rivera" would fit in that list. hm
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Nov 6, 2015 18:28:11 GMT -5
Oh my, you'll really went in on it today!! I know someone is probably gonna say this is the wrong place for this discussion but let me add my two cent. As a whole we need more kids from GU in the NBA period, as it stands right now Otto and Green are the only two holding it down in there respective conferences. Hibbert, Monroe, and Hollis are all on teams that will probably not see the play-offs at the end of the regular season and kids take note of that. We are an elite brand and should be able to recruit as such regardless of what any rating outlet disseminates. We need to be the corner stone of hard-work, determination, and relentless defense. We need to get back to opponents fearing a loss when we hit the floor and once we have achieved that we will get the recruits that we want not the ones we need.
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hoyapac
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 188
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Post by hoyapac on Nov 6, 2015 18:42:25 GMT -5
Oh my, you'll really went in on it today!! I know someone is probably gonna say this is the wrong place for this discussion but let me add my two cent. As a whole we need more kids from GU in the NBA period, as it stands right now Otto and Green are the only two holding it down in there respective conferences. Hibbert, Monroe, and Hollis are all on teams that will probably not see the play-offs at the end of the regular season and kids take note of that. We are an elite brand and should be able to recruit as such regardless of what any rating outlet disseminates. We need to be the corner stone of hard-work, determination, and relentless defense. We need to get back to opponents fearing a loss when we hit the floor and once we have achieved that we will get the recruits that we want not the ones we need. Monroe is in a great position the next couple of years to get a lot of attention with the group of guys around him.
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Nov 6, 2015 19:02:02 GMT -5
Oh my, you'll really went in on it today!! I know someone is probably gonna say this is the wrong place for this discussion but let me add my two cent. As a whole we need more kids from GU in the NBA period, as it stands right now Otto and Green are the only two holding it down in there respective conferences. Hibbert, Monroe, and Hollis are all on teams that will probably not see the play-offs at the end of the regular season and kids take note of that. We are an elite brand and should be able to recruit as such regardless of what any rating outlet disseminates. We need to be the corner stone of hard-work, determination, and relentless defense. We need to get back to opponents fearing a loss when we hit the floor and once we have achieved that we will get the recruits that we want not the ones we need. Monroe is in a great position the next couple of years to get a lot of attention with the group of guys around him. Monroe in the next couple of years, maybe so. As of right now we need to get DSR, Copeland, Peak and at least one other Hoya into the NBA. Four is a stretch but not if we went to the FF.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,014
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Post by dense on Nov 6, 2015 19:12:23 GMT -5
Oh my, you'll really went in on it today!! I know someone is probably gonna say this is the wrong place for this discussion but let me add my two cent. As a whole we need more kids from GU in the NBA period, as it stands right now Otto and Green are the only two holding it down in there respective conferences. Hibbert, Monroe, and Hollis are all on teams that will probably not see the play-offs at the end of the regular season and kids take note of that. We are an elite brand and should be able to recruit as such regardless of what any rating outlet disseminates. We need to be the corner stone of hard-work, determination, and relentless defense. We need to get back to opponents fearing a loss when we hit the floor and once we have achieved that we will get the recruits that we want not the ones we need. Monroe is in a great position the next couple of years to get a lot of attention with the group of guys around him. Milwaukee will make the playoffs this year. They probably will make some noise. They will not be an easy out. They have chemistry issues right now hut an alot of talent on that roster to not make the playoffs.
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by IDenj on Nov 6, 2015 19:20:22 GMT -5
Is this still the Eubanks thread?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 6, 2015 19:25:51 GMT -5
So what is this now like strike 4? Strike 5? We're working on striking out the side here... That has been a constant theme lately. I agree. What a Editedty class of freshman we have. (and last year's stink too). Now KC, I think you know I was only referencing the string of misses over the last 3 months or so ( notice my use of "lately" ). You don't ALWAYS have to be the board contrarian!
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Nov 6, 2015 19:59:09 GMT -5
Monroe is in a great position the next couple of years to get a lot of attention with the group of guys around him. Milwaukee will make the playoffs this year. They probably will make some noise. They will not be an easy out. They have chemistry issues right now hut an alot of talent on that roster to not make the playoffs. I hope so but my point of all of this is we need to get our players to the next level, we need to kick the damn door open and flood the NBA not the D-league or the Euro leagues the NBA. This will open up recruiting!
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 6, 2015 20:07:29 GMT -5
Etomic, let me make my argument more clear, since the above is a mess. * You seem to be proposed to stop pursuing Top 100 guards and instead focus on evaluating players at the bottom of the Top 100 or unranked. * While we do strike out a lot of Top 100 guards, we do get some -- DSR, Peak, etc., -- and those players have often been instrumental to our success. * When we do not get commits, we generally get players in the same range that you are proposing we focus on first.* Over time, our guard play has not necessarily been a negative -- in fact, our worst years seem to often be when we have our best guard combos and they aren't supported by a strong frontcourt. * Why would we give up the DSRs and Freemans, etc., if the effect of striking out is more or less the same as striking out? I guess I'm not convinced that pursuing the higher ranked players is making us miss a "middle rung" -- that once we strike out there we're getting lesser players than the Harvards or Vanderbilts. Exactly right SF so why not grab these players early in the process to help build the base of talent in the backcourt back up? Doing this can also allow the staff to focus more on the future instead of constantly chasing the present? I think we can all agree that the program is lacking depth in the back-court.. I didn't mean to imply that I wanted Vanderbilt's or Harvard's roster, I was just trying to say that each school has gotten kids recently who'd be nice fits at G'town.. Plus many of the kids targeted by the Stanford's, Vandy's, Harvard's, Northwestern's of the country happen to be high academic kids who are very interested in going to a high academic school that plays high level basketball.. So to me that's a niche G'town should get more involved with if the fit is right.. I think you're selling the kids at Vanderbilt short SF.. Baldwin. La Chance & Davis were all 3+ kids coming out of HS & we can't forget about Shelton Mitchell who transferred out but was rated higher than any of them on most sites.. IMO Stallings has a good eye for guard talent.. I get what you're saying about Stallings overall record but you can't blame the past on freshman kids.. Fisher-Davis may have been "mediocre" overall last season but a freshman who shoots 40% from 3 in over 175 attempts tells me the kid has potential.. All 3 of these kids are more than likely 4 year players so imagine how good they may be as Jr's & Sr's? Imagine a G'town back-court next year of Jr's Tre, Peak & Baldwin backed up by freshman Mosely? Swap out Baldwin for La Chance or Fisher-Davis and folks around here would still be happy.. Imagine if the staff had landed Bryce Aiken along with Mosely? Who wouldn't be happy with that future backcourt? It's not settling in my view.. Freeman came on board when the program was on fire so to me it's not ideal to use him as an example.. Also, I'm not blaming guard play for any of the misfortunes the program has had in recent seasons..
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by blueandgray on Nov 6, 2015 20:43:57 GMT -5
No doubt that Georgetown carries the most weight in the BE....its not even a debate...Guri is just having an off day. There is a reason why the bball only schools basically handed over the decision making powers to Georgetown and Georgetown alone when it came to conference realignment.
As for the other group of you suggesting that we should go for mid-major talent and counting how many strikes we have....do any of you even know if we've offered Eubanks? Anybody? Sheesh! Kids list us all the time because we've tracked them...and it doesn't mean anything. Out.
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guru
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Post by guru on Nov 6, 2015 20:50:10 GMT -5
Guru- I do research and polling for ESPN, and what I'm saying isn't an opinion, it is a fact. You couldn't be anymore wrong. Stating that you do work for ESPN only lessens your credibility. Ha. What kc said. arlington - color me highly unimpressed by your workplace. I trust you are better than your colleagues, who are wrong far more often than they are right. Either way you are looking backwards at this discussion.
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guru
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Post by guru on Nov 6, 2015 20:55:58 GMT -5
No doubt that Georgetown carries the most weight in the BE....its not even a debate...Guri is just having an off day. There is a reason why the bball only schools basically handed over the decision making powers to Georgetown and Georgetown alone when it came to conference realignment. As for the other group of you suggesting that we should go for mid-major talent and counting how many strikes we have....do any of you even know if we've offered Eubanks? Anybody? Sheesh! Kids list us all the time because we've tracked them...and it doesn't mean anything. Out. Who carries the most weight in conference discussions is a separate discussion. Not sure there's a national brand in the current big east conference. Gtown and nova could get back to that status but in current landscape it's an uphill climb. I'm amazed that people still think it's 1985, or even 1995.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 6, 2015 21:12:57 GMT -5
All of the wishing in the world for top shelf or next tier kids isn't going to change the fact that Georgetown is a bit unique and is a more difficult fit than many other schools. You can not take classes at UNC. You can beat women at Syracuse. Under Calipari, you don't even have to take your own SATs. And, guess what? You're still eligible to play ball. That's not how our program is run and, personally, I don't it want it to be. Teaching personal responsibility and commitment is at least as important as any class you'll take at any school. It's what forms the basis for education in school and beyond. I don't want a special dorm with entirely different standards unless the athletes aren't students and are paid employees. If you're paying them, offer them the most attractive package. If they're students, offer them what Georgetown offers students. If you're an elite level player coming out of HS, there's a very good chance that people have been catering to you and kissing your backside for quite a while in many regards. Georgetown doesn't do as much of that as many other places. How do you expect that to be attractive to the majority of stud players? The Greg Monroes and the Jeff Greens of the world are not that easy to find and, even if you do find a few, Duke is a much sexier brand. Who didn't know at least a couple entitled kids in their time in school that had trouble adhering to the rules and threatened to call daddy to straighten things out? Thing is, there's much less most schools will do for a run-of-the mill entitled kid than some schools will do for elite ballplayers with an attitude of entitlement because they already have the regular kid's tuition money. The school is making money off of the ballplayers.
Anyway, back to Kobie. The stories surrounding him, if they're true, sort of point to a bad fit at Georgetown for him. If that's the case, that's not a recruiting failure at all. If you try to sway the kid when you feel that it's not going to be a good fit for him and he bites, that's horrendous recruiting because you're doing the kid a huge disservice. Without any knowledge of what is happening or what has happened, how can we deem it a failure? Sure, you can call it a recruiting "miss" but only in the sense that you didn't "land" the kid. A lot of misses are good misses for the recruit and for the school.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 6, 2015 21:16:57 GMT -5
No doubt that Georgetown carries the most weight in the BE....its not even a debate...Guri is just having an off day. There is a reason why the bball only schools basically handed over the decision making powers to Georgetown and Georgetown alone when it came to conference realignment. As for the other group of you suggesting that we should go for mid-major talent and counting how many strikes we have....do any of you even know if we've offered Eubanks? Anybody? Sheesh! Kids list us all the time because we've tracked them...and it doesn't mean anything. Out. Just because a kid goes to Harvard or Wichita St. or Gonzaga or Pepperdine ect.. doesn't mean that they're automatically a "mid-major" talent.. Jagan probably would have ended up at Harvard if G'town didn't get in the picture, does that make him a mid-major talent? Kaleb was headed for William & Mary, is he a mid-major talent?
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 7, 2015 1:08:47 GMT -5
No doubt that Georgetown carries the most weight in the BE....its not even a debate...Guri is just having an off day. There is a reason why the bball only schools basically handed over the decision making powers to Georgetown and Georgetown alone when it came to conference realignment. As for the other group of you suggesting that we should go for mid-major talent and counting how many strikes we have....do any of you even know if we've offered Eubanks? Anybody? Sheesh! Kids list us all the time because we've tracked them...and it doesn't mean anything. Out. Just because a kid goes to Harvard or Wichita St. or Gonzaga or Pepperdine ect.. doesn't mean that they're automatically a "mid-major" talent.. Jagan probably would have ended up at Harvard if G'town didn't get in the picture, does that make him a mid-major talent? Kaleb was headed for William & Mary, is he a mid-major talent? It doesn't at all mean that. But I thought we were talking about the difference between elite and 100-200 guys. There are plenty of guys in that 100-200 range that could really explode and grow. I feel like our staff does a very good job, better than most, of finding guys that are overlooked or underrated and I think that's the crux of the discussion. Why not go hard after guys with elite ratings if you can still go to the well, identify talent, and land really good players that are also high character guys? I think our staff has found a good balance. Are we getting a lot of 5 star guys? No. But no amount of leg work will change that as long as the philosophy of the program and the school is what it is. Having said that, we have a team this year loaded with talent. They're not all five star MDAA guys but loaded nonetheless. I think that's a huge credit to, not a knock against, our program. I rooted like hell for guys like AI and Victor Paige because they wore the jersey of my school and I took the Pollyanna view of the situation because it eased my cognitive dissonance and, in the case of AI especially, I felt like it was the right thing to do to give him an opportunity to succeed and shine. And, in a way, that's what a college is supposed to provide. He needed a little time to learn some things and to find a place he belonged that wasn't what he was a part of in his past. He needed that type of education to be able to move on. No one was shocked he didn't graduate considering his life up until that point. He made the right decision for him and I'm happy that Georgetown was helpful in him transitioning from that part of his life to his profession. Say what you may about his life after Georgetown. He did some bad stuff and made awful decisions at times but also consider where he could have ended up without Georgetown. Also consider that he still speaks very respectfully, almost reverentially, about Big John. And, not for nothing, I'd see him every Tuesday and Thursday on his way to his 8:50 as I was on my way to mine and he always seemed affable and happy and, while I wouldn't call him humble, he also never came off as arrogant about who he was on campus. Also, there were never any rumors about academic issues or preferential treatment. By all accounts that I ever heard, including from friends that were on the practice team, he was just the most athletically gifted Georgetown student anyone had ever seen. My only point is that, to me, AI was a guy that fit at Georgetown. And it's difficult to find guys that are. Elite or just below. Sometimes you luck out and most times, because it's the nature of the game, guys go elsewhere. I don't lament not getting a kid because he didn't feel like Georgetown was a place he'd be happy being. I never lament not getting a kid that chose a different place to play because the situation was more, how shall we say, cozy for him. I root hard for the guys that do enroll and suit up because, while I don't know, I can imagine how much is asked of them and how hard they work. Georgetown asks a lot, more than most, of 18 year old kids that, oftentimes, don't have school first in their minds. They want to play on the biggest stage and focus on that as much as they can. And we still have guys that sign on and make it to the Association and excel. Focus on the "misses" if you want but the guys that come and move on and excel are anomalies. Every single one. Where are the Devendorfs of the world? You can fingerpaint or take online classes at Syracuse and their NBA guys, on the whole, are hot garbage. Our guys come back and take classes over the summer in some cases and graduate while having guaranteed multi-million dollar contracts because they cared about the education. I'd love to get top 10 guys because it's fun and improves the record and winning beats the hell out of losing. But we also got Jeff Green. Graduating and he has posters discussing how he could be more successful in the NBA. You think Melo has plans to sign up for classes at the Cuse? Even If he did, just as when he was there, he'd get BS grades to push him through.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2015 10:34:04 GMT -5
B&G alluded to it earlier but Don't believe this kid has an offer...
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daymondmyles
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Post by daymondmyles on Nov 10, 2015 11:12:38 GMT -5
I hate to be the one of the voices of panic, but what are we doing guard wise for next year? We lose DSR and Riyan Williams and have to assume we could lose Peak. Whether he will or won't leave, I think you have to prepare for that possibility. If that happens, aren't the only guards Tre, Moseley and Kaleb? Out of those, you have one shooter and really no all around scorer. And yet, it looks like we aren't going to land any guards at this point. Brown is pretty much off the table. Woods is more than likely not coming here. And we didn't offer Eubanks. Isn't this a little insane going into next year THIS thin?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2015 11:30:54 GMT -5
I hate to be the one of the voices of panic, but what are we doing guard wise for next year? We lose DSR and Riyan Williams and have to assume we could lose Peak. Whether he will or won't leave, I think you have to prepare for that possibility. If that happens, aren't the only guards Tre, Moseley and Kaleb? Out of those, you have one shooter and really no all around scorer. And yet, it looks like we aren't going to land any guards at this point. Brown is pretty much off the table. Woods is more than likely not coming here. And we didn't offer Eubanks. Isn't this a little insane going into next year THIS thin? You're assuming worst case. And we're a year away from that. Lots of time for things to change. The odds of us going into the year with Tre, Jagan, and Kaleb as are only backcourt options are just barely north of 0.0%.
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Post by Lethal_Interjection on Nov 10, 2015 11:42:43 GMT -5
I hate to be the one of the voices of panic, but what are we doing guard wise for next year? We lose DSR and Riyan Williams and have to assume we could lose Peak. Whether he will or won't leave, I think you have to prepare for that possibility. If that happens, aren't the only guards Tre, Moseley and Kaleb? Out of those, you have one shooter and really no all around scorer. And yet, it looks like we aren't going to land any guards at this point. Brown is pretty much off the table. Woods is more than likely not coming here. And we didn't offer Eubanks. Isn't this a little insane going into next year THIS thin? My guess is that, as fans you have to trust the process in what the staff is doing. In bringing in the players that fit the system at Georgetown.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Nov 10, 2015 11:43:29 GMT -5
I hate to be the one of the voices of panic, but what are we doing guard wise for next year? We lose DSR and Riyan Williams and have to assume we could lose Peak. Whether he will or won't leave, I think you have to prepare for that possibility. If that happens, aren't the only guards Tre, Moseley and Kaleb? Out of those, you have one shooter and really no all around scorer. And yet, it looks like we aren't going to land any guards at this point. Brown is pretty much off the table. Woods is more than likely not coming here. And we didn't offer Eubanks. Isn't this a little insane going into next year THIS thin? You're assuming worst case. And we're a year away from that. Lots of time for things to change. The odds of us going into the year with Tre, Jagan, and Kaleb as are only backcourt options are just barely north of 0.0%. Is that supposed to be reassuring? Also, daymond who is the shooter in that trio? Next we will hear that Paul White is and has always been a guard so we're good.
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