DanMcQ
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Sept 13, 2015 11:10:11 GMT -5
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 13, 2015 11:10:11 GMT -5
He checks the boxes for the category, but I wasn't suggesting he was on a par with them, to me it's more that he's in amazingly good company. You can argue whether his career is on par with the other 3 (it's clearly not) but you can't argue the facts. The more interesting discussion is what in my mind hurts him the most: the discounting of a position (DH) that has been in the major leagues for over 20 years. I think it's time for that argument to fall. Like you, I think the steroids argument is a superfluous one and most times it's an easy out for writers inherently biased against a player so they can discount the player's stats without having to acknowledge them. Here's a piece from Matt Snyder (baseball writer from Indiana, not a Boston writer) that makes the case (and it's a good one) that giving Ortiz a steroids asterix is not actually based on much evidence at all: www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/25294487/steroid-stigma-unfair-to-500-home-run-club-member-david-ortiz?FTAG=YHF7e3228e On edit: agree completely with nj about Edgar Martinez.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 14, 2015 19:34:30 GMT -5
He checks the boxes for the category, but I wasn't suggesting he was on a par with them, to me it's more that he's in amazingly good company. You can argue whether his career is on par with the other 3 (it's clearly not) but you can't argue the facts. The more interesting discussion is what in my mind hurts him the most: the discounting of a position (DH) that has been in the major leagues for over 20 years. I think it's time for that argument to fall. Like you, I think the steroids argument is a superfluous one and most times it's an easy out for writers inherently biased against a player so they can discount the player's stats without having to acknowledge them. Here's a piece from Matt Snyder (baseball writer from Indiana, not a Boston writer) that makes the case (and it's a good one) that giving Ortiz a steroids asterix is not actually based on much evidence at all: www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/25294487/steroid-stigma-unfair-to-500-home-run-club-member-david-ortiz?FTAG=YHF7e3228e On edit: agree completely with nj about Edgar Martinez. Ortiz is a tough case simply because of the unverified nature of the failed test. I'm not a guy who thinks all users should out and I also don't think you should ignore tests. For me, it's about taking as good of a guess as you can about what they would have done -- as hard as that is. Because Ortiz is a borderline HOF, it does matter to me whether or not he used. because if he did, I don't think he's a HOF.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Sept 15, 2015 20:34:57 GMT -5
Thomas Boswell is a terrific writer. However, even in last year's Manager of the Year season, Williams showed an abject inability to manage a bullpen. His team has been decimated by injuries. This year, but he has exacerbated the situation with repeated bungles of his bullpen. Anyone who watched the Mets series knows that Drew Storen had no chance, repeat no chance against Cespedes the other night after his tragi-comic inning on Tiesday. But Matt ran him right back out there and Cespedes roofed one. Moreover, while it would clearly have been "against the book", Cespedes is mashing against righties and struggle against lefties. Given that Storen had failed the night before., maybe the Manager of the Year would put down the "book" and engage his brain. Nope. Full disclosure. I think he is a dick for how he treated my son. He has been awful over the last few weeks. PS Rizzo did him no favors bringing in Papel Edited. Tom Lasorda would have approved of Matt Williams' decision. Which only goes to show how wrong it was.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 23, 2015 3:13:45 GMT -5
RIP Lawrence Peter Berra. Completely underrated as a ballplayer.
The future ain't what it used to be.
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Elvado
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Sept 23, 2015 4:56:51 GMT -5
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Post by Elvado on Sept 23, 2015 4:56:51 GMT -5
As the great man once said, "always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't go to yours..."
His excellence as a player has always been overlooked because of his inadvertent humor.
The job he did taking over the Mets after the loss of Gil Hodges in 1972 was a testament to the strength of his character and his inherent intelligence, malaprops notwithstanding.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Sept 24, 2015 19:55:35 GMT -5
I despise the Yankees to the depths of my soul, but I loved Yogi. How could anyone not love Yogi?
I'm puzzled, though, by these statements that Yogi was underrated as a player. He certainly wasn't underrated during his playing days - he was a three time MVP. And doesn't he still make everyone's list of the top 5 or so catchers ever? Perhaps he's underappreciated by the younger set, but certainly not by my generation.
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Elvado
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Sept 25, 2015 6:18:20 GMT -5
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Post by Elvado on Sept 25, 2015 6:18:20 GMT -5
You are basically correct. However, the first thing most people Relate to Yogi is malapropism not arguably the greatest career ever by a catcher.
That's all I was saying.
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Elvado
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Sept 26, 2015 7:02:21 GMT -5
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Post by Elvado on Sept 26, 2015 7:02:21 GMT -5
So good to see the Nats nut up and win some for Matty.
At a time when the Mets had just 3-6 on a home stand and doubt was creeping in , they managed to get swept at home and then lose the opener to the worst team in baseball.
This spineless performance speaks volumes to what the team thinks of Williams.
For all his nonsensical pronouncements Jayson Werth might as well be cleaning out Matt's office for him.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 26, 2015 7:28:40 GMT -5
I'd throw Rizzo in that mix, too. The signing of Papelbon destroyed what was left of a deteriorating bullpen, IMHO. Storen was always on the edge to begin with and Papelbon's signing pushed him over the edge. Wonder whether he has any value left. Should have re-signed Clippard.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 26, 2015 9:18:24 GMT -5
I despise the Yankees to the depths of my soul, but I loved Yogi. How could anyone not love Yogi? I'm puzzled, though, by these statements that Yogi was underrated as a player. He certainly wasn't underrated during his playing days - he was a three time MVP. And doesn't he still make everyone's list of the top 5 or so catchers ever? Perhaps he's underappreciated by the younger set, but certainly not by my generation. Oh it's possible to hate Yogi. I have a friend who is a Giants fan and his hate of the Dodgers is so strong that he also dislikes Vin Scully. How could anyone not like Vin Scully? Underappreciated is probably a better term than underrated. His post--playing career activities and his Yogi-isms have shifted the focus away from an incredible playing career. Top 5 catcher for sure.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Sept 26, 2015 12:54:16 GMT -5
So good to see the Nats nut up and win some for Matty. At a time when the Mets had just 3-6 on a home stand and doubt was creeping in , they managed to get swept at home and then lose the opener to the worst team in baseball. This spineless performance speaks volumes to what the team thinks of Williams. For all his nonsensical pronouncements Jayson Werth might as well be cleaning out Matt's office for him. As a lifelong Mets fan, I am absolutely shocked by the second-half performance of the Nationals. Not that I'm complaining, mind you. However, the Nats demonstrated no heart, no guts, and as Elvado notes, no spine. If you are Mike Rizzo, and management gives you another chance to build this team, where do you start? Do you bring back Ian Desmond? Do you bring bank Jordan Zimmermann? Do you bring back Denard Span? From my perspective, I'd only be interested in Span. Desmond is not worth the price tag he'll be seeking (and some team will be foolish enough to offer him), and Zimmermann won't re-sign in DC. I'd also dump both Drew Storen and Jonathan "Clubhouse Cancer" Papelbon. Storen needs a fresh start somewhere else, and will bolt the Nats once he gets to free agency, based upon how he's been treated. Papelbon should be traded for the sake of the rest of the team (nice move picking him up from the Phillies!). Go trade for Craig Kimbrel from the Padres and start rebuilding that bullpen. As for Matt Williams. . .meh. He's not the only problem with the Nationals. Rizzo likes him. I'm not sure he's going anywhere just yet.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 27, 2015 7:27:21 GMT -5
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Elvado
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Sept 27, 2015 15:30:11 GMT -5
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Post by Elvado on Sept 27, 2015 15:30:11 GMT -5
It is so hard being right all the time. Nice to see they have some fight in them. If only against each other.
Adios Pap!!!
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 27, 2015 16:03:08 GMT -5
It is so hard being right all the time. Nice to see they have some fight in them. If only against each other. Adios Pap!!! Isn't Paplebon under contract for next year? Hahaha
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Sept 27, 2015 18:29:33 GMT -5
I was wrong. The Nationals need to relieve Matt Williams of his managerial duties before the Reds come to town tomorrow.
There is no way he should have let Papelbon come out to pitch the ninth inning after the chokehold implemented upon Harper. Absolutely no way.
I don't see now how anyone in the Nats clubhouse has any respect for Williams after his response to this nonsense.
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Elvado
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Sept 27, 2015 18:39:51 GMT -5
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Post by Elvado on Sept 27, 2015 18:39:51 GMT -5
Lucky thing is from all reports they had none to begin with. He was, and is, a stooge. Was a make-believe tough guy as a player and a buffoon as a manager.
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DanMcQ
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MLB 2015
Sept 27, 2015 20:07:36 GMT -5
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 27, 2015 20:07:36 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 27, 2015 23:01:56 GMT -5
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Post by BubbleVisionBiff on Sept 28, 2015 12:09:28 GMT -5
Guess who bought tickets to the home finale today during the 6th inning yesterday before the implosion? This guy. Now williams is apparently 45 min late for the pregame presser. This is gonna be great. Maybe they will let me manage.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 28, 2015 12:35:34 GMT -5
Guess who bought tickets to the home finale today during the 6th inning yesterday before the implosion? This guy. Now williams is apparently 45 min late for the pregame presser. This is gonna be great. Maybe they will let me manage. Maybe Randy Knorr being named interim manager . . .if Williams on the way out.
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