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Post by HometownHoya on Mar 6, 2015 11:27:55 GMT -5
Odd to say Georgetown's all time 3 point shooting leader did not shoot well and their all time leading assist player was "ALWAYS taking it to the rim." DSR is a better shooter (though he has had some really bad games where he can't make anything, i.e. at Villanova). Braswell was a better defensive player. I hate where I am in this thread because I like DSR, so every comment I make against him makes me seem like a troll. I don't think the Braswell comparison is such a negative. But I will say, Butler game steal aside, DSR's defense is his weakest part of his game. Teams end up with OPEN threes when DSR is on the perimeter. Ever notice how teams have killed us with threes? It seems like every decent team has tons of wide open threes against us. Our wings cover lots of ground for threes (Trawick, Bowen, Copeland). It is our guards that get stuck behind back picks, lose their guy, etc. and give up the threes. DSR also has a hard time staying in front of good offensive point guards. See St. Johns game, Harrison, or Dunn at Providence. Sorry for the "like" above. I meant to tap the "quote" link on my IPh. I do not agree with this. First, when the knock on your offense is that you need to shoot more or be more selfish, then it's obvious defense will be the weakest part of your game. DSR has made tremendous strides on defense from when he started so kudos for that. As for 3s, it's not only DSR, it's trying to double team the ball by everyone guarding the perimeter, i.e., Bowen, but that's the defensive system under JT3, the switching and the inexperience of four freshmen combined. Read the game threads. It's not just DSR. If you hit the thumbs up again, it will take away a like. DSR ranks as the #1 guard on this team.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 6, 2015 11:32:34 GMT -5
I cannot comment on some of these older guys, but you lost me when you mentioned Victor Page. I was there to watch him and I don't care how many points he averaged on a very limited offensive team, he shot under 38%. DSR and many other GU guards could shoot 20+ times a game and be volume shooters too, so Page's inflated scoring numbers do not mean much to me. Also longevity matters, he did not have any. Page should not be in this discussion.
I really enjoyed watching Braswell but he was no where near as polished an offensive player as DSR. Also, I do not like that a high steals number indicates a player is better defensively. That stat can be inflated by pace and by the defensive system - which is a major issue when comparing players between III and Big John's teams. Players should not get credit for gambling a lot on defense while someone who shuts down an opposing player is punished due to a lack of measurable stats.
This is a major reason why I cannot argue with any of the older players, the era was so different, the game was played so different and I do not see how any strong conclusions can be made on some of these comparisons.
As I said in my earlier post, DSR is the best guard of the JT3 era, and that is probably the fairest set of players to compare him against. What is being missed a bit is DSR has another season and 2 more postseasons to play. His stats will just keep growing and hopefully his team's success will follow. I am looking forward to a legendary run in the BET and March for the next two seasons.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 6, 2015 12:44:50 GMT -5
This is the first year they've played together that Mikael Hopkins will have more rebounds than DSR. Hopkins, despite having an extra year and six inches on DSR, is only about 80 rebounds ahead of DSR for his career. Yeah people want to ignore the fact that when you have other plus rebounders like Otto and Greg were around him you're gonna lose out on some rebounding numbers. Not necessarily realistic to see three starters each averaging 9 rebounds a game....
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 6, 2015 12:52:24 GMT -5
TC's right on Braswell and Esherick; there's simply no way he's as inefficient playing under JTIII. That said, his counting stats probably aren't anywhere near as high. From watching Braswell, I have my doubts as to whether he could have played a III-style game -- I think he was a volume guy through and through. But that said, this staff would have helped him get better than he was.
That said, Braswell's massive counting stats are basically the function of being the best offensive player on a fast-paced, undisciplined, mostly offensively challenged team who actually managed to not flunk out.
If Victor Page had played four years, he'd have a lot of Braswell's numbers. If Kenny Brunner or Shenard Long had come in as a freshman, been able to control the ball and play for four years, they, too, would be up there in career records.
Transfers killed us in the mid-90s. Vic Page had over 1,000 points in two years (not terribly efficient, but still). He jumped for the "pros." Ed Sheffey came in, scored 250 points, dropped 100 assists and I don't even remember the sequence of his leaving or reason, but it wasn't good. Kenny Brunner was on pace to lead the NCAAs in assists as a frosh -- 139 in 19 games! and was gone. Shenard Long dropped nearly 400 inefficient points that season and couldn't make the grade. Anthony Perry was ruled ineligible as a freshman.
It was this that a sophomore Perry and a freshman Braswell rolled into Georgetown. Four guards with possible star quality, all definitely gunning a bit, quickly becoming the team's star players and then leaving. Bras knocked out an inefficient 400-500 points/year, dished a ton of assists and controlled the ball. He was better than Long and Sheffey and probably worse than Page and Brunner talent-wise. But if some of those guys had stayed, he wouldn't have the counting stats.
People do dog on Braswell too much -- much of his gunning was coaching and the talent around him. But he's not DSR.
----------------------------------------
BTW, though it's not in the other places I looked, Braswell had 446 career turnovers. By his junior and senior season, he had a nice 2:1 A:To ratio.
But DSR has 136 turnovers in almost three full seasons. Braswell had 356 through his junior year.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Mar 6, 2015 13:32:35 GMT -5
I cannot comment on some of these older guys, but you lost me when you mentioned Victor Page. I was there to watch him and I don't care how many points he averaged on a very limited offensive team, he shot under 38%. DSR and many other GU guards could shoot 20+ times a game and be volume shooters too, so Page's inflated scoring numbers do not mean much to me. Also longevity matters, he did not have any. Page should not be in this discussion. I really enjoyed watching Braswell but he was no where near as polished an offensive player as DSR. Also, I do not like that a high steals number indicates a player is better defensively. That stat can be inflated by pace and by the defensive system - which is a major issue when comparing players between III and Big John's teams. Players should not get credit for gambling a lot on defense while someone who shuts down an opposing player is punished due to a lack of measurable stats. This is a major reason why I cannot argue with any of the older players, the era was so different, the game was played so different and I do not see how any strong conclusions can be made on some of these comparisons. As I said in my earlier post, DSR is the best guard of the JT3 era, and that is probably the fairest set of players to compare him against. What is being missed a bit is DSR has another season and 2 more postseasons to play. His stats will just keep growing and hopefully his team's success will follow. I am looking forward to a legendary run in the BET and March for the next two seasons. Agree to disagree about Victor. He was a very good player. He was consistently double and tripled teamed, yet scored nonetheless. He is hard to compare to DSR. Victor played one year with AI, Othella, Jerome, Jahidi, Boubacar, and company, and then a year with Jahidi, Boubacar, Ya-Ya, and company. Others have chronicled the various DSR teams well. I do believe that DSR may end up the better player in the long run, which is a HUGE compliment in my book for DSR. If only he could replicate Victor's play in the 1996 BET...
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Mar 6, 2015 16:28:45 GMT -5
DSR has a decent shot to become the 5th Hoya to make the 2,000 point club and become the all-time leader in 3 point shots made. With a Sweet 16 or 2 folded in, DSR becomes a Top-10 Hoya in my mind, passing guys like David Wingate, Derrick Jackson, John Duren, Craig Shelton, Michael Jackson, Austin Freeman, and Roy Hibbert. If we go on a big run this year or next, it will become a no brainer.
The comparisons to Freeman are interesting, but I would take DSR (without too much angst) over Freeman. Much more complete player.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Mar 6, 2015 17:28:25 GMT -5
DSR has a decent shot to become the 5th Hoya to make the 2,000 point club and become the all-time leader in 3 point shots made. With a Sweet 16 or 2 folded in, DSR becomes a Top-10 Hoya in my mind, passing guys like David Wingate, Derrick Jackson, John Duren, Craig Shelton, Michael Jackson, Austin Freeman, and Roy Hibbert. If we go on a big run this year or next, it will become a no brainer. The comparisons to Freeman are interesting, but I would take DSR (without too much angst) over Freeman. Much more complete player. Wow. Those are some all time great Hoyas. Hopefully we string together two Sweet 16's so we can really have this discussion.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 6, 2015 19:13:51 GMT -5
TC's right on Braswell and Esherick; there's simply no way he's as inefficient playing under JTIII. That said, his counting stats probably aren't anywhere near as high. From watching Braswell, I have my doubts as to whether he could have played a III-style game -- I think he was a volume guy through and through. Of course he is! Do you think Braswell becomes Lubick in this offense? He transfers in a year. My point was Braswell was not in demonstrably less-efficient offenses in general at least his last 2-3 years. They weren't as "pretty" as JTIII's can be but those years we had two guys in the post shooting (more than twice a game) and making over 50%. DSR is racking up these numbers and this is his first year with any threat remotely close to that. Braswell owns his inefficiency. He chose the system knowing it was uptempo and feed the post. Nothing wrong with that but he doesn't become a different player in this era. Actually he doesn't become a Hoya at all.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 6, 2015 20:53:06 GMT -5
TC's right on Braswell and Esherick; there's simply no way he's as inefficient playing under JTIII. That said, his counting stats probably aren't anywhere near as high. From watching Braswell, I have my doubts as to whether he could have played a III-style game -- I think he was a volume guy through and through. Of course he is! Do you think Braswell becomes Lubick in this offense? He transfers in a year. That's an absolutely unfair thing to say about someone - who unlike pretty much every guard recruited in the same period (Iverson, Page, Sheffey, Brunner, Long, Willie Taylor, Jason Burns, Demetrius Hunter, Drew Hall, Tony Bethel, Matt Causey) stayed four years. And no, Braswell does not become Lubick in the offense - he was a talented offensive player who I think if you had put him in a more efficient offense would have looked for better shots. 1999-2000 the team shot 39.4%. Is that an efficient offense? It's nowhere near a JT3 offense. Braswell's efficiency improved every year at Georgetown. He used a lot less possessions his Junior and Senior year than he did his Freshman and Sophomore year. He made some of the adjustments you seem to believe he couldn't. I'm going to bet that most people think that Anthony Perry would have done better under a JT3 system. Braswell was a more efficient guard than Perry.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 7, 2015 0:54:19 GMT -5
Nobody is arguing Braswell isn't a great Hoya. I'm arguing this idea that individual players get sprinkled with efficiency dust by JTIII's system.
Let's put it this way, what guards are the efficiency kings under JTIII? Wallace, Freeman, DSR. What guards are ok or up and down? Sapp, Wright, Starks.
Our efficient guards are shooters. No system or coach makes Bras a better shooter. That's no knock on Braswell. Those other guys who are up and down are really good too. But we're talking efficiency and even guards fully in JTIII's system have to be shooters to be consistently efficient. Bras wasn't. It's not the system, it's his jumper.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Mar 7, 2015 1:58:42 GMT -5
don't know - I think DSR's stats are kinda overrated because this team has been missing a lot of offensive productive players - besides Josh, DSR has been the only consistent player putting up numbers.
Comparing him to one of our recent productive guards, such as Freeman, is kinda unfair, when he was playing along with Clark and Wright, splitting stats, not to mention 2 years with Greg Monroe. Same thing with Wallace - he played with Green, Hibbert, Summers, Sapp, who were vastly superior talents to what we have right now - especially if you consider Trawick has not played as good as Sapp offensively.
DSR is a fine player - but i don't think he has played better than Freeman so far. Freeman would be averaging 20 pts on this team.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 7, 2015 9:05:01 GMT -5
don't know - I think DSR's stats are kinda overrated because this team has been missing a lot of offensive productive players - besides Josh, DSR has been the only consistent player putting up numbers. Comparing him to one of our recent productive guards, such as Freeman, is kinda unfair, when he was playing along with Clark and Wright, splitting stats, not to mention 2 years with Greg Monroe. Same thing with Wallace - he played with Green, Hibbert, Summers, Sapp, who were vastly superior talents to what we have right now - especially if you consider Trawick has not played as good as Sapp offensively. DSR is a fine player - but i don't think he has played better than Freeman so far. Freeman would be averaging 20 pts on this team. DSR averaged 17 as a sophomore sharing the court with a pretty productive senior in Starks. Pretty significant if you ask me.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 7, 2015 11:06:22 GMT -5
don't know - I think DSR's stats are kinda overrated because this team has been missing a lot of offensive productive players - besides Josh, DSR has been the only consistent player putting up numbers. Comparing him to one of our recent productive guards, such as Freeman, is kinda unfair, when he was playing along with Clark and Wright, splitting stats, not to mention 2 years with Greg Monroe. Same thing with Wallace - he played with Green, Hibbert, Summers, Sapp, who were vastly superior talents to what we have right now - especially if you consider Trawick has not played as good as Sapp offensively. DSR is a fine player - but i don't think he has played better than Freeman so far. Freeman would be averaging 20 pts on this team. Don't know but I think DSR's stats would be even better with more offensive talent around him. As long as we're doing the hypothetical which in this case can never be proven correct or not, imagine a DSR who does not have to bring up the ball and distribute, who is not doubled or tripled team, who cannot be the first or second focus of the defense, who can pick and choose where to be, instead of what it is now and was last year. I think he would have crushed Freeman's highest ppg of the JT3 era. As is, I think DSR passes him next year. Depending on how the frosh progress and how good the incoming big committee will be, DSR will have more space to play and at the 2. Still, he will be a primary or secondary focus of the defense next year. In Freeman's case, when he had to carry the team in his senior year, he failed offensively and defensively. But, does he get a pass because of his illness? From what I've heard and read from fans, it depends who you ask. What is undebatable is that Freeman' s best defense was the Torero defense and, if you're comparing both players, that's where DSR is clearly better and that's why he's a more complete player than Freeman.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 7, 2015 11:49:53 GMT -5
Nobody is arguing Braswell isn't a great Hoya. I'm arguing this idea that individual players get sprinkled with efficiency dust by JTIII's system. Let's put it this way, what guards are the efficiency kings under JTIII? Wallace, Freeman, DSR. What guards are ok or up and down? Sapp, Wright, Starks. Our efficient guards are shooters. No system or coach makes Bras a better shooter. That's no knock on Braswell. Those other guys who are up and down are really good too. But we're talking efficiency and even guards fully in JTIII's system have to be shooters to be consistently efficient. Bras wasn't. It's not the system, it's his jumper. Yes, but look at the efficiency improvements of Cook, Bowman, and Owens in their two seasons playing organized basketball.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 7, 2015 12:01:04 GMT -5
don't know - I think DSR's stats are kinda overrated because this team has been missing a lot of offensive productive players - besides Josh, DSR has been the only consistent player putting up numbers. Comparing him to one of our recent productive guards, such as Freeman, is kinda unfair, when he was playing along with Clark and Wright, splitting stats, not to mention 2 years with Greg Monroe. Same thing with Wallace - he played with Green, Hibbert, Summers, Sapp, who were vastly superior talents to what we have right now - especially if you consider Trawick has not played as good as Sapp offensively. DSR is a fine player - but i don't think he has played better than Freeman so far. Freeman would be averaging 20 pts on this team. Don't know but I think DSR's stats would be even better with more offensive talent around him. As long as we're doing the hypothetical which in this case can never be proven correct or not, imagine a DSR who does not have to bring up the ball and distribute, who is not doubled or tripled team, who cannot be the first or second focus of the defense, who can pick and choose where to be, instead of what it is now and was last year. I think he would have crushed Freeman's highest ppg of the JT3 era. As is, I think DSR passes him next year. Depending on how the frosh progress and how good the incoming big committee will be, DSR will have more space to play and at the 2. Still, he will be a primary or secondary focus of the defense next year. In Freeman's case, when he had to carry the team in his senior year, he failed offensively and defensively. But, does he get a pass because of his illness? From what I've heard and read from fans, it depends who you ask. What is undebatable is that Freeman' s best defense was the Torero defense and, if you're comparing both players, that's where DSR is clearly better and that's why he's a more complete player than Freeman. I'm pretty sure Markel and DSR are #1 and 2 in scoring average under III if I'm not mistaken
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Mar 7, 2015 14:30:22 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Markel and DSR are #1 and 2 in scoring average under III if I'm not mistaken Over his career, Markel only averaged 9.9. Not bad, but not #2 of the JT3 era.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Mar 7, 2015 14:56:41 GMT -5
Leading scorers by average ppg during JT3 era: Greg Monroe
| 14.5 | DSR | 14.1 | Austin Freeman
| 13.7 | Jeff Green
| 13.1 | Otto Porter
| 12.8
| Chris Wright
| 12.4 | Josh Smith
| 11.3 | DaJuan Summers
| 11.2 | Roy Hibbert
| 10.9
| Jason Clark
| 10.5
| Markel Starks
| 9.9
| Jonathan Wallace | 9.2
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 7, 2015 15:22:08 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Markel and DSR are #1 and 2 in scoring average under III if I'm not mistaken Over his career, Markel only averaged 9.9. Not bad, but not #2 of the JT3 era. I was clearly talking about singe season scoring average...
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 7, 2015 16:38:41 GMT -5
Over his career, Markel only averaged 9.9. Not bad, but not #2 of the JT3 era. I was clearly talking about singe season scoring average... Freeman set the mark at 17.6 ppg/season and DSR matched it last year. Markel's best was 17.3.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 7, 2015 17:35:24 GMT -5
I was clearly talking about singe season scoring average... Freeman set the mark at 17.6 ppg/season and DSR matched it last year. Markel's best was 17.3. Yeah and I said if I wasn't mistaken. Either way they're the only thee to average 17 under III....which speaks to the point I was trying to make. Not to mention the difference in their scoring averages is negligible.
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