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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 28, 2015 8:23:09 GMT -5
The easiest way for us to win is for Josh to play well, get normal minutes, and require double-teams. When that doesn't happen, one or two other players have to be able to create for themselves and play well. Didn't happen. Everybody stunk. And when that happens, we're going to lose. We have a lot of options and a lot of ways to score, but at least a couple of them are going to have to have good games for us to win. Copeland and White were both unassertive -- both took four shots. Josh was unable to be his usual self with Stainbrook in the game and obviously was terrible from the stripe. Jabril was a turnover machine and seemed off his game. And DSR? Well, he too was unassertive in the first half. And part of the issue with him is that -- for all his strengths (and there are many) -- he's simply not going to breakdown a quick defender that is his height off the dribble. And when he can't, he's not going to force shots.
I guess I was most disappointed in the freshmen tonight, simply because (outside of Tre, who was assertive but just didn't make them and to some degree LJ, who didn't get a lot of time), they didn't take the shots that were presented to them. DSR and Josh were looking for theirs -- the shots simply weren't available. Jabril was looking for his -- but he turned it over virtually every time he did. That's not good, but they're certainly not mental or effort mistakes. I would have liked to see Paul and Ike, particularly in the first half, take some balls strong to the hole, and try to force the action a bit.
Look, these sorts of games are going to happen, particularly when the matchup issues are particularly acute, which seems to be the case here. It's unfortunate, of course. But we move on.
Was it me or did Josh and Mikael play an unusual number of minutes together? Maybe it was me, I don't know. But if so -- particularly in a game where the offense is struggling -- we just can't do that.
One other point: If LJ and Bril had been unavailable tonight, I think people would have been disappointed with the loss but it would have been somewhat understandable. Well, both (it seemed) were extremely limited, even if that wasn't immediately apparent. Bril was not himself -- at least not his recent self, seeming unsure of what he wanted to do and/or a step slow. And LJ only played 10 minutes. I'm not making excuses -- this team has the depth to win despite those issues.
But if you're going to give tons of credit in beating a much worse Marquette team (albeit on the road) with those two guys very limited but playing more effectively (overall) than they did tonight, then you at least need to recognize the issue as a significant factor when playing a much better team.
One final point (I mean it this time): Looks to me like we've spent a ton of time on our zone offense, and it shows, but our man offense has suffered. The cuts were slow and the ball movement uncertain. That was particularly true when they doubled DSR on every ball screen. Quick rotations there lead to easy hoops, but we couldn't do it.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Jan 28, 2015 8:24:27 GMT -5
As crappy as the team played I still can't get over the student showing. It was just an atrocious atmosphere all game long. Even the promotion stuff fell flat (Jesuits can't shoot by the way). It all really added to the depressing vibe of the whole night. That was not a setting worthy of a program of our stature. Hopefully no big recruits were in the house. I had no issue with the students and other fans that showed up tonight - they did what they could to help during the few times where the team gathered some momentum and cut into leads. But I agree about the student showing. On a 4 game winning streak (including the great home wins over Butler and Nova), the national ranking, the play of the freshman, etc., I was sure there would be a huge student turnout. I was shocked at how few students turned out. I think we just need to accept the fact that basketball is simply not as important to the student body now as it was during our time on the Hilltop over the past 40 years (for me 88-92). The crowd got into it the few times we cut it to 10 and then especially when we goty it to 7 with still about 330 to play (I think?). But otherwise I agree that things were just off tonight. In addition to the promotions - it is especially embarassing that in two of the last 3 home games (tonight and Butler) the video that runs before the team has been introduced has malfunctioned. Tonight there was no sound as the video played - so you could clearly hear the Xavier team doing some loud dance / chant as the backdrop to our intro video. The sound for the player introductions is also typically muddled / crappy. Do we bring our own equipment or could it possibly be that bad for the Caps and Wizards too? And to top it off, I cant stand the fact that our player introductions no longer include a reference to the player's hometown! One more point on the at-game experience: we have the worst band ever. Embarrassingly bad, and seemingly worse this year than in the past. It's too bad because I have seen bands at other schools play a big role in creating a pumped-up atmosphere.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 28, 2015 8:30:03 GMT -5
very disappointed in the play of the 5 upperclassmen. josh, hop, AB, jabril & dsr had 15 of the 17 TO's in the game. Joined by the frosh. Paul seemed to have no energy, was slow on D, and has lost his shot. LJ had a couple of moments on offense, but also was out of control a couple of times and looked confused on defense. Ike was pretty much a non-factor. And Tre - aside from the court length drive, he got completely blown by at least 4 times, and even went all Nikita on a 3! Hopefully now they realize the level of energy and focus you have to bring every single night. If so, maybe the loss can help in the long run. Agree. It is almost impossible to know where to start. White is clearly slumping at both ends of the court. Tre is simply not there yet on defense. He has nice quickness but cannot play man against a competent guard and is not strong enough yet to fight through picks and screens. Peak will be fine eventually, but right now his defense is erratic and he needs alot of work on his outside shot, though he did hit one early. More importantly was the play of Jabril and DSR. Both are capable of so much more. DSR disappears too often this season. It is not a case of his shot not falling but rather a matter of simply not being a part of the offense. I had to keep asking myself if he was on the floor in the first half. Not certain if it is too many responsibilities at the point, not enough plays designed to get him his shot or inexperience around him that is leading to slower ball movement and rotation. He does not have too many wide open looks, as he did last year when he was playing with Starks. Jabril is a warrior. He wants to lead. He wants to pull this team to victory. He tries too hard, too often though. When I see him lower his head and start that bullrush into the lane, it is like Groundhog Day--a repeating pattern of wild shots, charging calls or turnovers. He simply needs to slow down and play within the flow of the game rather than forcing the matter. Ditto for Hopkins. Smith will never drive this engine. He cannot create a shot for himself and basically is totally dependent upon others to get him the ball within 5 feet of the basket. With such limited mobility it is not surprising that his contribution to the game is completely dictated by the play of others. If they are off, he is basically rendered a minor player. This team is limited by some missing pieces and inexperience. They are going to be exciting at times and then pull a complete dud like last night. They did not look prepared last night for the game they were going to get from Xavier. Not just a match-up issue, but lazy defense, forced shots on offense and a lack of energy. It happens, particularly with young teams. It cannot happen too often or this season of potential will end in bitter disappointment. I worry how they will handle the BE tournament when they will have to play daily.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 28, 2015 8:48:59 GMT -5
One more point on the at-game experience: we have the worst band ever. Embarrassingly bad, and seemingly worse this year than in the past. It's too bad because I have seen bands at other schools play a big role in creating a pumped-up atmosphere. I have to agree. I know Aaron Broadus is well respected within GU, but a director can only do so much--the band seems to have declined in size and sound for a school with somewhere around 7,000 undergraduates. The rugby shirts and aging selections like "Hey Baby" seem like a band still playing in the Capital Centre. Contrast this with the band at VCU:
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hoyarad
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Post by hoyarad on Jan 28, 2015 9:00:36 GMT -5
All I wanted was for JT3 to call a timeout and yell at someone, particularly when we went down 17 in the first half. Complete let down.
I'm assuming JT3 had more to say then what we were able to hear...
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 28, 2015 9:14:29 GMT -5
I thought the zone press with Copeland at the front of it looked good. We never actually turned them over on it, but we were close and they were rattled (and had a few near 10 second calls). I wish we had stayed with that longer to try to turn them over and change momentum. I agree with this. I think there's potential there. The one thing we need to add to it, is when they make a pass to just get over the line, we need to be ready to trap that guy and use the line as another defender. Twice they managed to get the ball to a guy just past half court and he was allowed to turn and face and look for the next pass with out any pressure really.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 28, 2015 9:33:04 GMT -5
what i am actually worried after watchin this game is how are we going to be able to replace the production of josh smith next season?
no he did not have a great game, but i think he is the most consistent player, not to mention that productive big men are hard to find these days.
like many people have mentioned their fear of losing DSR to NBA after this seasn (though not sure if people are still saying this), but even if we somehow lose him, i think peak, copeland, and white can easily fill in his shoe.
But a big man who can score consistently and grab boards like josh seems pretty elusive.
i am curious how long it is going to take for Govan to fill his shoes.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 28, 2015 9:34:16 GMT -5
If you read between the lines I think the reason we are so upset at this loss is that we all thought THIS TEAM wouldn't play like this. I know I sure did. I just thought we had too much talent to experience another of those huge scoring droughts. We were too fearless to be unable to come back from large deficits. And our foul shooting wouldn't tank. But we aren't there yet and probably will experience more games like this. Hopefully, we will return to Nova/Marquette form and not spoil our NCAA chances. I still have hope for a surprising NCAA run.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 28, 2015 9:47:24 GMT -5
I thought the zone press with Copeland at the front of it looked good. We never actually turned them over on it, but we were close and they were rattled (and had a few near 10 second calls). I wish we had stayed with that longer to try to turn them over and change momentum. I agree with this. I think there's potential there. The one thing we need to add to it, is when they make a pass to just get over the line, we need to be ready to trap that guy and use the line as another defender. Twice they managed to get the ball to a guy just past half court and he was allowed to turn and face and look for the next pass with out any pressure really. Absolutely agree. This is an area in which I continue to be critical of Coach. Why not try to trap more aggressively at that desperate stage of the game? Why not try a more aggressive kind of press (IDK...a 2-2-1 or something) once it's clear the primary press you use isn't doing what it needs to do? Or a real aggressive man defense with Copeland on the inbounder and trapping the first pass? Even if you don't work on it much, and if they easily break it for a layup the first two times you try it, well, at least you tried, right? And how about a trapping half-court defense to change things up when the game is almost out of hand? I know these aren't things we usually do, and I'm OK with that. But if there's a 90% chance you're going to lose by simply doing the same things, then try something else.
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hoyarad
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Post by hoyarad on Jan 28, 2015 10:01:25 GMT -5
I agree with this. I think there's potential there. The one thing we need to add to it, is when they make a pass to just get over the line, we need to be ready to trap that guy and use the line as another defender. Twice they managed to get the ball to a guy just past half court and he was allowed to turn and face and look for the next pass with out any pressure really. Absolutely agree. This is an area in which I continue to be critical of Coach. Why not try to trap more aggressively at that desperate stage of the game? Why not try a more aggressive kind of press (IDK...a 2-2-1 or something) once it's clear the primary press you use isn't doing what it needs to do? Or a real aggressive man defense with Copeland on the inbounder and trapping the first pass? Even if you don't work on it much, and if they easily break it for a layup the first two times you try it, well, at least you tried, right? And how about a trapping half-court defense to change things up when the game is almost out of hand? I know these aren't things we usually do, and I'm OK with that. But if there's a 90% chance you're going to lose by simply doing the same things, then try something else. But if there's a 90% chance you're going to lose by simply doing the same things, then try something else. Agreed.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 28, 2015 10:03:47 GMT -5
Taking a step back, the reactions around here are pretty comical after a bad loss -- the team sucks! the fans suck! the students suck! the band sucks! LOL (and, yeah, I am guilty as charged, as well).
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 28, 2015 10:06:06 GMT -5
I agree with this. I think there's potential there. The one thing we need to add to it, is when they make a pass to just get over the line, we need to be ready to trap that guy and use the line as another defender. Twice they managed to get the ball to a guy just past half court and he was allowed to turn and face and look for the next pass with out any pressure really. Absolutely agree. This is an area in which I continue to be critical of Coach. Why not try to trap more aggressively at that desperate stage of the game? Why not try a more aggressive kind of press (IDK...a 2-2-1 or something) once it's clear the primary press you use isn't doing what it needs to do? Or a real aggressive man defense with Copeland on the inbounder and trapping the first pass? Even if you don't work on it much, and if they easily break it for a layup the first two times you try it, well, at least you tried, right? And how about a trapping half-court defense to change things up when the game is almost out of hand? I know these aren't things we usually do, and I'm OK with that. But if there's a 90% chance you're going to lose by simply doing the same things, then try something else. I always said this too, as have plenty of others. Our teams under Thompson have never been adept at closing leads late in games. We've had some miraculous comebacks, sure, but generally those are over a longer period of time and the result of good halfcourt D. When we're making that mini run last night, hovering in the 8-12 point range with about 5 or so to go, it never really felt like we had enough time to fully close that gap, mostly because we're letting them use 30+ seconds on offense and then doing the same ourselves. We never have any kind of a plan for trying to play high pressure D with the intention of forcing turnovers getting easy buckets. They had 26 missed FGs in the game and only grabbed 6 O Rebs (4 of which were Team rebounds). Mostly because their focus was on transition D and taking away our easy bucket opportunities. They did it all game. So even if we played good halfcourt D and forced a miss, we weren't getting anything easy off of those. I just think having an aggressive full court (or even half court) D designed to force turnovers would be helpful in these situations.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 28, 2015 10:07:15 GMT -5
Im confused, that is exactly what he did? He tried about 10 different lineups, too. He even called 2 TOs in the first half!
It came down to execution, as others said. Throwing around buzz words like "lack of effort, heart, desire," "playing scared," is what people on message boards say to try to sound like there was some profound reason we lost. From the very first possession, we were defended well and didnt execute.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 28, 2015 10:12:07 GMT -5
what i am actually worried after watchin this game is how are we going to be able to replace the production of josh smith next season? no he did not have a great game, but i think he is the most consistent player, not to mention that productive big men are hard to find these days. like many people have mentioned their fear of losing DSR to NBA after this seasn (though not sure if people are still saying this), but even if we somehow lose him, i think peak, copeland, and white can easily fill in his shoe. But a big man who can score consistently and grab boards like josh seems pretty elusive. i am curious how long it is going to take for Govan to fill his shoes. That's a kind of odd thing to say since Josh Smith didnt really give much production last night. I love Josh, but last night certainly showed his limitations. He didn't rebound well, he was slow on rotating, there were 3-4 times where he was walking back on defense well behind the play. He missed lots of FTs that appeared to be because of fatigue.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 28, 2015 10:40:06 GMT -5
Sure there is more than good defense at work. However, if you want to blow off the idea that Xavier's defense was not the major factor in this loss, so be it. Remember, they shut us down not once but twice this year. This is not a couple of chance events. The way they shut us down is more than the problems we had with South Florida. In terms of personnel, we are much more gifted this year with more weapons and depth than I can remember in a long time. I'm sure Xavier had a decent amount to do with it. But most of our turnovers were unforced -- offensive fouls and travels. I'm not giving Xavier credit for that. And they do block out well, but 10% of O Rebounds is beyond abysmal. That's more than what an opponent can do to you -- that never happens. You have to contribute yourself. Xavier is a strong defensive rebounding team, but that was their best defensive rebounding performance of the year, nearly 1/3rd better than against freaking USD. Not San Diego State, but the University of San Diego. And you can't give them credit for the crappy FT shooting.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 28, 2015 10:43:26 GMT -5
what i am actually worried after watchin this game is how are we going to be able to replace the production of josh smith next season? no he did not have a great game, but i think he is the most consistent player, not to mention that productive big men are hard to find these days. like many people have mentioned their fear of losing DSR to NBA after this seasn (though not sure if people are still saying this), but even if we somehow lose him, i think peak, copeland, and white can easily fill in his shoe. But a big man who can score consistently and grab boards like josh seems pretty elusive. i am curious how long it is going to take for Govan to fill his shoes. You have to change with the personnel. Copeland and White and Tre will have to step up. Govan will give you some of it, and some different things, but the team needs to evolve.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 28, 2015 11:26:55 GMT -5
Like I said, I think the hysterical posts and the less hysterical but still overly critical posts are due to the fact that we expected more out of this team. I compare it to someone who had a serious disease, thought they were cured, and then started experiencing the symptoms of the disease again. Or maybe it was just me. But my buddy and I while watching the game had that deja vu all over again moment. And that, more than any particular aspect of this stinker is what is so disheartening, disconcerting, and generally depressing.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Jan 28, 2015 12:12:32 GMT -5
Someone upthread mentioned the possibility of losing DSR early to the NBA. I don't see it: great college player but not tall enough, quick enough, or with a good enough handle for the NBA in my opinion. He'll be back next year, which is good for us!
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Air Jordan
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Post by Air Jordan on Jan 28, 2015 12:16:06 GMT -5
I do not see DSR going to the NBA, he will be here next year.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 28, 2015 12:18:40 GMT -5
A few more thoughts (that I don't think have been mentioned much) about the game in no particular order:
Chris Mack is a pretty good coach. He clearly knows how to gameplan against us and use his team's size and physicality against us. Their gameplan was sound and it worked. He called a couple timely TOs to stimy runs and draw up plays. Someone compared this game/team to Pitt which I think is a good comparison. Cincinnati used to beat us this same way too. And I think Cronin had some good games against us as well. I thought Mack did a good job. Which brings me to a related point...
This had all the signs of one of those games where the opponents gameplan was going to give us fits all game and we had no answer. Our sets weren't working and we really made very little or no adjustments. It's not the first time and it won't be the last. But Thompson was again at a loss for how to adjust in-game to give us a chance. Or he made those adjustments too late. I've come to accept that he and the team will have these games. No, the turnovers and silly fouls are not his fault of course, but it was plain to anyone watching that their D was not going to let us operate as we normally like to. Coach and team couldn't adjust. It happens all the time to teams that are good not great, and that's what we are right now.
Did we all really think we were going to continue to shoot FTs at such a high rate without any kind of regression? Mikael didn't just morph into Dirk Nowitzki the night before the Marquette game He and Josh are around 63% for their careers. They weren't going to keep shooting 70%+ for the rest of the season as they had in the recent stretch of good games. We were due for some regression. It came last night unfortunately. Josh was 4-9 and Mikael was 0-2. To make matters worse they are a good FT shooting team and made us pay at the line last night.
For all the negative talk about our D recently, we actually played a pretty good game defensively I thought. Yes, we lost track of Myles Davis a couple times and speedy guards continue to give us trouble, but we held a pretty efficient, high-scoring offensive team to a pretty average offensive night. Still a lot of work to be done, but our D was good enough that even a below average offensive performance - we were at dumpster fire level - would have been enough to win.
Tre giveth...and Tre taketh away - one game after putting the dagger in Marquette, he chucks one off the side of the backboard from the same spot late in the game and then clanks another open look a couple minutes later that would have cut the deficit to 5 with 3:30 to go. In no way am I knocking the kid here. That's the way it goes with freshmen more often than not. Merely an observation.
Peak had 12 points in 10 minutes on 3-6 shooting (2-4 from 3) and 4-5 from the stripe. I think he was limited by foul trouble a bit if I recall, but if that kid was hurt he sure didn't play like it when he was out there. Should be a good sign going forward.
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