|
Post by professorhoya on Jan 20, 2015 21:33:45 GMT -5
What exactly are we going to remember about this game a year from now? What a strange experience, but does it leave a lasting impression? On the trajectory of this season, you'd hope. But this game seems destined for the file marked "oh right, I forgot that happened" in the memory file. Is it fatigue? Maybe we used up all the energy at the ending of the Butler game (or getting drunk after the ending of the Butler game). This was incidentally the 8th victory under JTIII over a Top 5 ranked team, but it never felt so blah. Was it the blowout? I guess even I consigned this to the victory column with Brill hit a Grade A heat check to put us up 42-19. I just didn't see the fight in Nova last night--vintage Jay Wright would have been a lead pipe lock for a Rage Technical during our first half scoring run, so you gotta figure he knew things weren't right. Were we all distracted? The commentary online after the game mirrors the discussions in the stands. The discussion of the students was like this surreal three act play--"Why can't they get rid of the tarps? There are so many students here!" to "Where were these students all year?" to at the conclusion of the game...well, you've read the thread and seen the coach's postgame and read/seen all the commentator #hottakes. Between that and the weird-as-crap officiating, you'd have forgotten we were watching Georgetown destroy the #4 team in the country. Maybe it's Nova's fault, IDK. They're still on this "Most Anonymous Top Ten Team Ever" kick from last season. The record's great, and I've watched them work over some teams, but the schedule did them no favors, with Michigan and Syracuse being worse than expected, and the Big Five outside of Temple being kinda tragic this year. The only one of their games that stuck with me was their loss to Seton Hall, which is a good thing because at the beginning of last night's game I was thinking...hmmmm...reminds me of that start. What will stick with me is this: in a game that featured 51 combined fouls, we went 11 minutes in the first half without committing one. During that time, the game went from 4-4 to 30-11, and Villanova went 3-11 from the field with 6 turnovers. It's fair to say we've had some defensive struggles during the season, but it's impossible to argue we haven't improved a ton in January. Game seemed fine to me. Didn't see a lack of enthusiasm other then when the refs tried to slow the game down and help Nova. Was an exciting win.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,962
|
Post by EtomicB on Jan 20, 2015 21:34:28 GMT -5
Who are the critical/negative posters needling when they make critical/negative statements about JT3, players or the program? To me they're just expressing opinions on the program.. I agree with you that many of the comments are over the top but I doubt they're getting any great pleasure from posting the critical/negative comments and that's probably why you don't read much from them when the team wins because they're gloating like the rest of us.. When they do dish it, they get it back from the many folks who disagree with them and there's usually a lot of debate going back & forth.. Which we'd have to admit makes for interesting threads more times than not.. However when the team does well and folks want to "needle" the negative posters there's never gonna be any back & forth because I'm sure they're happy to be proven wrong for that game.. I just don't get the point of posting some comment to "needle" other posters after a win just because they were negative after a loss(Terrible loss if we're talking about the Providence game) No offense, Etomic - but if you don't think some posters get pleasure from negative comments after losses, I think you are overlooking the obvious. To suggest that they don't show up after wins because they are enjoying the win? C'mon, you know better, right? What's the obvious Frazier? Maybe I'm naive but I don't think they do.. If all they wanted to do was troll, they could do that after wins as well.. Do you really think the poster you go back & forth with a lot isn't a big fan of the program? I think he's a good fan
|
|
|
Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 20, 2015 22:11:27 GMT -5
Just a great game to watch as a Hoyas fan minus the 10 min span where the refs took over. My takeaways: - So many options on the floor this year on who can kill you. One of the announcers said it last night and it rings true. You have a freshman hit a game winner and suddenly the senior players have confidence in any 1 on the floor to hit a big shot. - Trawick has officially joined the JYD club. He's always shown his toughness but last night was pure JYD-style. He did alittle bit of everything and it showed how important he is to the team when he had to sit for a spell. - Shout out to Butler for preparing this team for Nova. Hoyas just got done playing a team that was fundamentally sound and has battled against the better teams this year while Nova came in after playing an inferior opponent. I think this set the Hoyas up well from the start. This old guy doesn't enjoy 9pm tip-offs but I'll take it every time if this is how they'll play! I like your description of Butler...a "fundamentally sound" basketball team.
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 20, 2015 22:14:30 GMT -5
I'm not talking about guru - and I only went "back and forth" with him on one thread that I recall. Although I may have exaggerated a little to jab him, I do know that he is a fan, and he does post positively after wins.
But there are multiple posters from whom we virtually never hear after good wins - but they can't wait to bluster in with their criticisms after every single loss. Just like there are others who cannot conceive of any fan daring to breathe a moment of complaint or negativity. Hey, I agree with you that rooting with an objective critical eye should never be mocked or belittled. That allows for reasonable give and take.But of course that is not always what we get. From either end of the spectrum.
|
|
|
Post by RockawayHoya on Jan 20, 2015 22:59:30 GMT -5
One last point I want to make. We always have a tendency to complain about officiating after losses, but I'm going to harp on something after a 20 point win. I still cannot for the life of me understand how our players are not protected by the flagrant rule for contact above the head or reckless play. At least THREE separate instances tonight (Josh getting hit in the face in the 1st half, Jabril getting momentarily blinded in the 2nd, and Ochefu's dangerous play on the Copeland lob) could have been flagrants going our way, and not only did we get none, none were even reviewed. And those s had the gall to go to the monitor to review a non-foul on the Ennis drive as a flagrant. Give me a Editeding break. I'll say this again and I'm sure it won't be the last time: if they can't enforce the rule objectively and consistently, then they have to get rid of it. Here's the best I can explain this based on what I know of the rules: A flagrant 1 is basically a foul that is deemed excessive or unnecessary. You're allowed to review to determine whether one occurred. Among the things that are considered flagrant 1 fouls: 1. Illegal contact caused by swinging elbows. If you do it because of "total body movement" it's either a common foul or flagrant 1. So that covers Josh Smith in Atlantis--even if you think it's just "Josh being big" or "Josh making a post move," he's still swinging the elbows in a manner deemed unnecessary. If it's excessive, then it's a flagrant 2. There is such a thing, btw, as incidental contact that involves an elbow. 2. Pushing or holding a player to prevent a score. This covers what happened on the layup attempt that was reviewed last night. I was staring at the rim/backboard so I didn't see the "foul". I'm going to take the word of literally every fan who commented on it at the time and since who says that there wasn't any contact. So even if we accept that it was a bad call, it's still instructive for this point. Since the official thought it was a foul, fouling a guy from behind on a breakaway layup attempt falls into this category, and you're permitted to use replay to determine if a flagrant 1 occurred. In a neat little coincidence, two of the referees from last night's game worked the Duke-Miami game last week, which featured a review of the same kind of play--a Duke player made a hard foul on a Miami player going in for a dunk. They reviewed it and determined IIRC that there was a reasonable attempt to play the ball (which I found questionable) and did not award a flagrant foul. I'm guessing they realized last night on replay that they whiffed the call altogether, but based on my understanding of the rules, you can't use replay to undo a common foul, unless you messed up the player it was on. I think you CAN determine that something was a common foul instead of flagrant 1/2 though if you initially called it one way. 3. Causing excessive contact with an opponent. Ahhhhh, the old catch-all. So whatever happened on the Josh Hart play falls under 1 or 3. I can only go based on the description/argument in the other thread, and based on that, I guess you could review it but it's more than likely (1) if the officials saw it they didn't deem it excessive, (2) it'd be real hard to prove anything that would warrant a flagrant 1. On the other stuff--I saw Josh get poked in the face in the first half, and that'd almost certainly fall under something that's a foul, but not excessive. Just because you get hit in the face, it isn't automatically a flagrant and/or reviewable...otherwise there's be one after like every loose ball. Ochefu's foul on the lob--it looks bad/ends badly, but that's a not-uncommon hard foul that results from alley oop attempts that catch a defender off guard. He's turning around/backing up, but it'd be hard to prove he intentionally and unneccessarily low-bridged Ike in a bang bang situation. BTW, what was the deal with the play when Trawick saved the ball off Arcidiacano? Did they end up going with an inadvertant whistle? I can't see the lines in that corner, so based on the initial call I thought Brill had saved it off RA, but landed out of bounds and came back in and touched it. IDK what the takeaway here is: that we're unlucky to not have more guys get elbowed cleanly in the face? I'll give you that Josh getting hit in the face may have been more in the incidental contact category, but I'm in the camp that believes Hart knew exactly what he was doing when he hit Jabril. The two had gotten tangled up on an earlier possession just prior to the incident and it was clear Hart was getting frustrated with Jabril and wanted some sort of payback. In any case, there's an entire separate thread right now debating whether or not it was intentional, which means it probably wasn't 100% accidental and should at least have been reviewed. IMO, there definitely should have also been a flagrant on Ochefu fouling Ike. Ochefu never made a play on the ball and simply made forceful contact to stop the play from happening. That alone is what should have made it "excessive and unnecessary." He had no clue where the ball was, he just knew that he was going to prevent Copeland from reaching the rim, everything else be damned. Re: the Trawick/Arcidiacano play, you are correct... they went with inadvertent whistle. They blew that play too because it was off Jabril after it hit Arcidiacano (who was standing inbounds anyways).
|
|
Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,910
|
Post by Filo on Jan 21, 2015 9:43:36 GMT -5
What exactly are we going to remember about this game a year from now? What a strange experience, but does it leave a lasting impression? On the trajectory of this season, you'd hope. But this game seems destined for the file marked "oh right, I forgot that happened" in the memory file. Is it fatigue? Maybe we used up all the energy at the ending of the Butler game (or getting drunk after the ending of the Butler game). This was incidentally the 8th victory under JTIII over a Top 5 ranked team, but it never felt so blah. Was it the blowout? I guess even I consigned this to the victory column with Brill hit a Grade A heat check to put us up 42-19. I just didn't see the fight in Nova last night--vintage Jay Wright would have been a lead pipe lock for a Rage Technical during our first half scoring run, so you gotta figure he knew things weren't right. Were we all distracted? The commentary online after the game mirrors the discussions in the stands. The discussion of the students was like this surreal three act play--"Why can't they get rid of the tarps? There are so many students here!" to "Where were these students all year?" to at the conclusion of the game...well, you've read the thread and seen the coach's postgame and read/seen all the commentator #hottakes. Between that and the weird-as-crap officiating, you'd have forgotten we were watching Georgetown destroy the #4 team in the country. Maybe it's Nova's fault, IDK. They're still on this "Most Anonymous Top Ten Team Ever" kick from last season. The record's great, and I've watched them work over some teams, but the schedule did them no favors, with Michigan and Syracuse being worse than expected, and the Big Five outside of Temple being kinda tragic this year. The only one of their games that stuck with me was their loss to Seton Hall, which is a good thing because at the beginning of last night's game I was thinking...hmmmm...reminds me of that start. What will stick with me is this: in a game that featured 51 combined fouls, we went 11 minutes in the first half without committing one. During that time, the game went from 4-4 to 30-11, and Villanova went 3-11 from the field with 6 turnovers. It's fair to say we've had some defensive struggles during the season, but it's impossible to argue we haven't improved a ton in January. Wow, all I can say is, it sure wasn't "blah" for me. The officials tried to make it unenjoyable in the second half, as I knew they would, but nope, I still enjoyed the hell out of it. I am totally with you on this. The tone of that post was pretty surprising to me. Guess you had to be there to get any of the blasé vibe?
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,304
|
Post by Cambridge on Jan 21, 2015 9:57:41 GMT -5
Wow, all I can say is, it sure wasn't "blah" for me. The officials tried to make it unenjoyable in the second half, as I knew they would, but nope, I still enjoyed the hell out of it. I am totally with you on this. The tone of that post was pretty surprising to me. Guess you had to be there to get any of the blasé vibe? The furrows in my living room carpet cut by endless pacing during the game attest to the fact that there was nothing blase about my viewing experience.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,609
|
Post by DanMcQ on Jan 21, 2015 10:05:58 GMT -5
I guess I can see the lack of suspense angle as the refs derailed the flow of the game in the second half, but damn that was a fun game to attend.
|
|
beenaround
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,475
|
Post by beenaround on Jan 21, 2015 10:35:40 GMT -5
I , for one, had a great time at the game. Hopefully saw Copeland and perhaps White take that next step toward greatness..and a total thrashing of a highly ranked team that, I "believed" going in, had no more talent then the Hoyas. Also thought the crowd was great. Hey..it wasn't quite like the Sampson /Ewing game at Cap Centre, or the win over Cuse two years ago...but it was the highlight of this old guy's month for sure!
|
|
NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,927
|
Post by NCHoya on Jan 21, 2015 10:56:41 GMT -5
I had attended the Butler game so I was still on a high from that game. The way the Hoyas completely dismantled Nova from the start kind of made this a win early and perhaps took the suspense out of the game versus a game like Butler where it was a classic back and forth contest. Being am early rising corporate slog, I also wish the start time could have been earlier than 915pm, I might have had more fun analyzing the W rather than trying to calm down to get some sleep.
What I enjoyed the most about this game is all the national attention it has generated about the team. They deserve it and they are playing well right now. I love that the critics of the program have nothing they can say right now, the silence is a beautiful thing.
|
|
|
Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jan 21, 2015 14:47:53 GMT -5
Interesting that JTIII said "he wished they hadn't" (referring to the students rushing the floor) I get the "act like you've been there before" mentality but we need as much student enthusiasm as possible and this crop of undergrads hasn't had much to cheer about. I want to be mature and agree with JT3 but, seeing some of the crowds, I just can't. I hope all of the current Hoyas are ecstatic and are enjoying this well earned and unexpected win. 20 years ago, I'd certainly be closing down the Tombs. Literally half them saw us win the Big East Championship 2 years ago! I'm over the court storming now, because I agree it will help with fan support, but let's not act like these kids have been suffering. Seniors have seen 2 NCAA teams and a Big East Championship. I hate the rationale that oh well they haven't had anything to cheer for for so long talk because it's not close to being true. It comes off as being as entitled and lacking a sense of even very recent history. Not directed at you directly tas because you're awesome, but I just don't like the rationalization that it was ok because they haven't had anything to cheer for because they have. It's ok because it'll help the fan support hopefully and because kids will be kids and like to have fun, but the team has given them planty to cheer for over the years.
|
|
jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,041
|
Post by jwp91 on Jan 21, 2015 17:48:53 GMT -5
I was travelling and just had a chance to finish watching the game.
One comment to add. Jabril was awesome. I have been waiting for that for 4 years. Hopefully, the next 10 weeks we see more of the saem from him.
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 21, 2015 20:27:50 GMT -5
I was travelling and just had a chance to finish watching the game. One comment to add. Jabril was awesome. I have been waiting for that for 4 years. Hopefully, the next 10 weeks we see more of the saem from him. 2 solid games, controlled aggression. Would make us a strong team if he can keep it at that level.
|
|
dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
|
Post by dreamhoya on Jan 21, 2015 21:18:28 GMT -5
If Jabril had not had to sit down after being whacked by Josh Hart, Villanova would never have gotten as close as 12 in the second half. If "close" is an appropriate description of a 12-point deficit. You cannot minimize how well he played. The first half may not be replicated again. However, this group can come awfully close to doing so. The sky is the limit with this team, and they are very close to being scary good. Let's build on this and do it again on Saturday against Marquette. Finally, the next coach that plays man-to-man defense against Georgetown, all game, should be immediately fired. I would expect that Jay Wright will try to incorporate more of a zone defense when GU travels to Philadelphia in February. All in all, as complete a game as the Hoyas have played in a very long time. This will open some eyes nationally. Gtown 2, Hart 0. (as related to his personal success against the team that jilted him)
|
|
lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
|
Post by lichoya68 on Jan 21, 2015 21:21:48 GMT -5
STILL WOW JUST WOW
|
|
tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,332
|
Post by tashoya on Jan 22, 2015 22:16:11 GMT -5
I get the "act like you've been there before" mentality but we need as much student enthusiasm as possible and this crop of undergrads hasn't had much to cheer about. I want to be mature and agree with JT3 but, seeing some of the crowds, I just can't. I hope all of the current Hoyas are ecstatic and are enjoying this well earned and unexpected win. 20 years ago, I'd certainly be closing down the Tombs. Literally half them saw us win the Big East Championship 2 years ago! I'm over the court storming now, because I agree it will help with fan support, but let's not act like these kids have been suffering. Seniors have seen 2 NCAA teams and a Big East Championship. I hate the rationale that oh well they haven't had anything to cheer for for so long talk because it's not close to being true. It comes off as being as entitled and lacking a sense of even very recent history. Not directed at you directly tas because you're awesome, but I just don't like the rationalization that it was ok because they haven't had anything to cheer for because they have. It's ok because it'll help the fan support hopefully and because kids will be kids and like to have fun, but the team has given them planty to cheer for over the years. I understand your point and it certainly has some validity. But last year took some luster off of that I think. And the 2 years before that were not great. I disagree with the "entitled" part but that's really just semantics. I do agree that (myself included) we likely have unrealistic expectations to a degree but I don't think finishing in the top 3 or 4 in the league most years and making the tourney are too much to expect in the sense that I think that is a realistic goal that won't always be met. But the years that it's not met should be the less frequent occurrence. Maybe you see it differently and that's understandable. I probably should have considered the entirety of the recent history of the program but, even after having done so, I still understand why some students would want to rush the court. I didn't agree with it but I also didn't really mind it for the simple reason that it's too often that discuss apparent student apathy towards the team. I get not really loving basketball but, for those that haven't been to a game as a student, it's only partly about basketball. It's a really fun way to spend some time with your friends and supporting your classmates doing something that they do pretty well most of the time. You definitely don't need to care at all about basketball to have a great time at a game. Especially as a student. I tried to convince more of my friends of that (to little avail) as a student. No one liked the trek to and from Landover but no one ever regretted going either. For the record, I appreciate you making clear that you weren't taking a shot at me in particular but it wasn't necessary. I know that you're a person that looks to add to discussion and doesn't take unnecessary shots. I know it's easily misconstrued here in many cases so I thank you for your clarity.
|
|
tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,332
|
Post by tashoya on Jan 22, 2015 22:22:49 GMT -5
BTW, has anyone else watched the first half of the Nova game 4 times? On a related note, how many times is too many and at what point should I find a support group?
|
|
AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
Posts: 1,481
|
Post by AvantGuardHoya on Jan 22, 2015 22:44:08 GMT -5
...at what point should I find a support group? You mean other than Hoyatalk?
|
|
drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,386
|
Post by drquigley on Jan 22, 2015 23:04:10 GMT -5
I was at the syracuse game 2 years ago (61-35?). I was also at the NCAA regional final 2 weeks later when that same syracuse team beat Marquette and went to the final four. Seeing those orange fans celebrating in our arena really took the joy out of that storming - and that BE championship. I agree that these students have had a lot to enjoy the last few years but I will say it again - and I don't care what the stats say - watching the Hoyas last year was so painful that students deserved the right to storm the court. Hell I figure after watching last year's team I deserve a few years off in purgatory!
|
|
hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,224
|
Post by hoyarooter on Jan 23, 2015 20:16:38 GMT -5
BTW, has anyone else watched the first half of the Nova game 4 times? On a related note, how many times is too many and at what point should I find a support group? You're there, bro. And you can justifiably take that either of two ways.
|
|