TC
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Post by TC on Jan 16, 2015 14:02:50 GMT -5
i know the history, but the early 90s also produced two NBA hall of famers in spite of bad seasons - so i kinda counted them in as us being "elite" So your coaching metrics are : - tournament success - # of NBA HOF produced in retrospect
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 16, 2015 14:12:15 GMT -5
If you think JT3 makes too much money, consider the fact that Oliver Purnell has made over $2 million a year, and up to this year, he only had 10 Big East wins.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jan 16, 2015 15:15:16 GMT -5
it just irritates me or others here, however, that everyone including JT3 knows that he has the job security regardless of his performances. He got a raise after getting into Final Four, with Pops threatening that his son will leave if he does not get the reward for his achievement, which he definitely deserved it. In spite of the program's ensuing underperformance, however, he still got the extension last year, and I wish there is some sort of paycut or a sign of warning that he needs to do a better job instead of only getting praises from the administration or fans defending JT3. Reality is that JT3's seat is not warm at all, and it will never get warm no matter what happens. But some people here want the seat to get warm so that he makes improvements to get us back into the glories of 80s to mid 90s, when we were once considered elite. What I'm still not seeing though is the answer to what I feel is an important question: What is the point when a coach's seat should get warm? And how close are we to that point?Sometimes I get the sense people use the argument about JT3's history with the program as a way to say "Well, he's not getting fired anyway" and avoid having to take a stance on whether that would be warranted or a good idea. So let's try it this way: Let's assume in 2004 instead of JTIII, we hired Generic Coach X, who had no prior ties to Georgetown. Everything else since is exactly the same: we run a Princeton offense, we made the 2007 Final Four, lost to FGCU as a 2 seed in 2013, Roy Hibbert hit a three to beat UConn, Greg Whittington was kicked off the team, we lost at Providence and won at DePaul this past week. All the coaches and players and recruits were the same. And all the stuff Pops did happened, and he still sits in the rocking chair during practices in McDonough and shows up at post-game pressers (just not to watch his son), and the Thompson Center is still under construction. As of January 2015, should that coach's seat be warm? What would it take to get there? (My answer's the same as above: three years missing the NCAA Tournament, then we talk.)
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 16, 2015 15:56:51 GMT -5
It will get shot down because the tournament is a crapshoot and a ridiculous way to judge coaching results and people who judge coaches solely on tournament success aren't really fans of college basketball. They are bandwagon fans of the tournament. I LOLed at this. are you being serious? I have some questions: 1. Do you feel that performance expectations of the program has been lowered? 2. If question #1 is yes, then when/what year do you think that this perception began to take form?
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 16, 2015 16:12:50 GMT -5
What I'm still not seeing though is the answer to what I feel is an important question: What is the point when a coach's seat should get warm? And how close are we to that point?That's because you're ignoring the point that it wasn't three years without a tournament berth that got Esherick fired, but his public statements. If he had kept his mouth shut, he would have been teaching Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert the double fist rather than the Princeton offense. I think the only thing that gets a head basketball coach fired is something off the court that really embarrasses the University or his bosses. I think we could miss the tournament this year and next year and JT3's job would still be very secure.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 16, 2015 19:19:32 GMT -5
I think there is a difference, when it comes to the philosophical position of a college, in making these decisions and in how athletics are viewed. In the Power 5 conferences, there are far more public institutions than private institutions: Northwestern in the Big Ten, Stanford and Southern California in the Pac 12, Vanderbilt in the SEC, and Baylor in the Big 12. There are five private schools in the ACC (Boston College, Miami, Notre Dame, Syracuse and Wake Forest), four of which were in the Big East. There are no public schools in the Big East. Arguably, coaches at the public schools have more pressures placed on them to win, win big, and win now, than do the private schools, because the media focuses far more on public institutions than private institutions (unless you are the only large school in Lower Canada). I don't think you can properly gauge the temperature of a coaching seat in the Big East, let alone the chair at Georgetown, against what the public institutions would do under similar circumstances; we are in effect comparing apples and oranges. And that is without consideration of the Pops factor and the Thompson name.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Jan 16, 2015 19:31:20 GMT -5
And even at the big public universities a coach's seat is hot when the biggest alumni donors say it is. Not when some message board smart asses say so.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 17, 2015 0:19:05 GMT -5
What I'm still not seeing though is the answer to what I feel is an important question: What is the point when a coach's seat should get warm? And how close are we to that point?That's because you're ignoring the point that it wasn't three years without a tournament berth that got Esherick fired, but his public statements. If he had kept his mouth shut, he would have been teaching Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert the double fist rather than the Princeton offense. I think the only thing that gets a head basketball coach fired is something off the court that really embarrasses the University or his bosses. I think we could miss the tournament this year and next year and JT3's job would still be very secure. this
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 17, 2015 0:57:22 GMT -5
i know the history, but the early 90s also produced two NBA hall of famers in spite of bad seasons - so i kinda counted them in as us being "elite" you are right that no one knows what the post-thompson era would look like. it could be worse, or it could be better. but i think you are underestimating the tradition that is built here and the pipeline of good local players around the DMV area. aside from having bad facilities, which might have been solved by the opening of the new court, i do think a lot of good coaches would want to come here. One of the main problem is that if you run the Thompsons out of town, the Hoyas NBA alumni will likely turn their backs on the program. You would be naive if you didn't think that Ewing, Mutombo, Alozno and down the line will distance themselves from the program. The tradition is built on the Thompsons and the quality players they produced. Without that you really have nothing in terms of tradition. Even the pipleline in the DMV is connected to the Thompsons good will with coaches or former players like Dwayne Bryant at Georgetown Prep. It would be arrogant to think that you could throw all that away and start from scratch to create a successful program given the limitations that come with being a small school. and what have the NBA alumni done so much for the program besides some donations for the new facility and sending their sons here? you won't be starting from scratch just because you have a new head coach. just because we have a new head coach, does not mean that all of the wins from the past are vacated as if we had committed a huge scandal. Plus, the name value of Pops has significantly decreased since the 80's. dun even think the kids we are recruiting right now were born then to see JT coaching.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 17, 2015 7:40:32 GMT -5
and what have the NBA alumni done so much for the program besides some donations for the new facility and sending their sons here? you won't be starting from scratch just because you have a new head coach. just because we have a new head coach, does not mean that all of the wins from the past are vacated as if we had committed a huge scandal. Plus, the name value of Pops has significantly decreased since the 80's. dun even think the kids we are recruiting right now were born then to see JT coaching. And showing up at games? And being telling recruits how great Georgetown is like Dikembe? And showing up at McDonough to train in the summer (Roy, Green, etc)? What else do you expect of them?
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 17, 2015 9:51:51 GMT -5
and what have the NBA alumni done so much for the program besides some donations for the new facility and sending their sons here? you won't be starting from scratch just because you have a new head coach. just because we have a new head coach, does not mean that all of the wins from the past are vacated as if we had committed a huge scandal. Plus, the name value of Pops has significantly decreased since the 80's. dun even think the kids we are recruiting right now were born then to see JT coaching. And showing up at games? And being telling recruits how great Georgetown is like Dikembe? And showing up at McDonough to train in the summer (Roy, Green, etc)? What else do you expect of them? so with a coaching change, they will - stop showing up for the games - tellin recruits not to go to georgetown - never comin back to McDonough to practice i thought they went to Georgetown University. or are you implying that they went to John Thompson University?
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 17, 2015 11:31:16 GMT -5
From all the posts on this thread there seems to be some common ground agreement on the coaching of JTIII during his 10 years at Georgetown.
Below is a mix of facts and opinions of critics:
Positives:
1. Represents the University well as the representative/face of Georgetown Athletics
2. Students athletes under his supervision overwhelming graduates
3. "0" NCAA rule violations during his tenure
4. For every season since his first in 2004/2005 JTIII has had a winning record and his team makes it to the NCAA or NIT Tournament
5. Won the 2012/2013 Big East Regular Season Championship as Co-Champion with Louisville (Pre-Power Conference Break-up)
6. JTIII has a legacy of coaching future NBA players: (Jeff Green, Roy Hibbert, Patrick Ewing Jr., DaJuan Summers, Greg Monroe, Hollis Thompson, Chris Wright, Henry Sims, Otto Porter)
Negatives:
1. Critics state that JTIII appears slow to make adjustments to opponents and his teams make the same mistakes year in and year out
2. Teams under perform in the Post-season tournaments (NCAA/NIT)
3. Failed to win 1 NCAA or NIT game with 3 McDonald All-Americans in the starting line-up
4. The Hoyas have not won a BET Title since 2007
5. The Hoyas have not won 2 games in a row in the NCAA or NIT since 2007
6. JTIII & Georgetown holds the record of being the only coach/team in NCAA history to be eliminated in 5 consecutive appearances by double-digit seeds
(2008, #10 Davidson 74 vs #2 Hoyas 70) (2010, #14 Ohio 97 vs #3 Hoyas 83) (2011, #11 VCU 74 vs #6 Hoyas 56) (2012, #11 NC State 66 vs #3 Hoyas 63) (2013, #15 FGCU 78 vs #2 Hoyas 68)
** 2013 was the 7th time that a #2 Seed lost to a #15 Seed in the NCAA Tourney, yet it occurred twice the year before with #2 Seeds Duke and Missouri losing to #15 Seeds Lehigh and Norfolk State respectively)**
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 17, 2015 11:39:35 GMT -5
From all the posts on this thread there seems to be some common ground agreement on the coaching of JTIII during his 10 years at Georgetown. Below is a mix of facts and opinions of critics: Positives:1. Represents the University well as the representative/face of Georgetown Athletics 2. Students athletes under his supervision overwhelming graduates 3. "0" NCAA rule violations during his tenure 4. For every season since his first in 2004/2005 JTIII has had a winning record and his team makes it to the NCAA or NIT Tournament 5. Won the 2012/2013 Big East Regular Season Championship as Co-Champion with Louisville (Pre-Power Conference Break-up) 6. JTIII has a legacy of coaching future NBA players: (Jeff Green, Roy Hibbert, Patrick Ewing Jr., DaJuan Summers, Greg Monroe, Hollis Thompson, Chris Wright, Henry Sims, Otto Porter) Negatives:
1. Critics state that JTIII appears slow to make adjustments to opponents and his teams make the same mistakes year in and year out 2. Teams under perform in the Post-season tournaments (NCAA/NIT) 3. Failed to win 1 NCAA or NIT game with 3 McDonald All-Americans in the starting line-up 4. The Hoyas have not won a BET Title since 2007 5. The Hoyas have not won 2 games in a row in the NCAA or NIT since 2007 6. JTIII & Georgetown holds the record of being the only coach/team in NCAA history to be eliminated in 5 consecutive appearances by double-digit seeds (2008, #10 Davidson 74 vs #2 Hoyas 70) (2010, #14 Ohio 97 vs #3 Hoyas 83) (2011, #11 VCU 74 vs #6 Hoyas 56) (2012, #11 NC State 66 vs #3 Hoyas 63) (2013, #15 FGCU 78 vs #2 Hoyas 68) ** 2013 was the 7th time that a #2 Seed lost to a #15 Seed in the NCAA Tourney, yet it occurred twice the year before with #2 Seeds Duke and Missouri losing to #15 Seeds Lehigh and Norfolk State respectively)** So the negatives are just 1. and 2., since 3-6 are pretty much details to support 2.? And 1. is pretty arguable. So it all comes down to disappointing post-season performance?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 17, 2015 12:11:08 GMT -5
That is, of course, the primary criticism - and a valid one certainly. The solution is clear - if we are lower seeded for the NCAA's, there is less chance we lose to double digit seeds!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2015 12:19:47 GMT -5
From all the posts on this thread there seems to be some common ground agreement on the coaching of JTIII during his 10 years at Georgetown. Below is a mix of facts and opinions of critics: Positives:1. Represents the University well as the representative/face of Georgetown Athletics 2. Students athletes under his supervision overwhelming graduates 3. "0" NCAA rule violations during his tenure 4. For every season since his first in 2004/2005 JTIII has had a winning record and his team makes it to the NCAA or NIT Tournament 5. Won the 2012/2013 Big East Regular Season Championship as Co-Champion with Louisville (Pre-Power Conference Break-up) 6. JTIII has a legacy of coaching future NBA players: (Jeff Green, Roy Hibbert, Patrick Ewing Jr., DaJuan Summers, Greg Monroe, Hollis Thompson, Chris Wright, Henry Sims, Otto Porter) Negatives:
1. Critics state that JTIII appears slow to make adjustments to opponents and his teams make the same mistakes year in and year out 2. Teams under perform in the Post-season tournaments (NCAA/NIT) 3. Failed to win 1 NCAA or NIT game with 3 McDonald All-Americans in the starting line-up 4. The Hoyas have not won a BET Title since 2007 5. The Hoyas have not won 2 games in a row in the NCAA or NIT since 2007 6. JTIII & Georgetown holds the record of being the only coach/team in NCAA history to be eliminated in 5 consecutive appearances by double-digit seeds (2008, #10 Davidson 74 vs #2 Hoyas 70) (2010, #14 Ohio 97 vs #3 Hoyas 83) (2011, #11 VCU 74 vs #6 Hoyas 56) (2012, #11 NC State 66 vs #3 Hoyas 63) (2013, #15 FGCU 78 vs #2 Hoyas 68) ** 2013 was the 7th time that a #2 Seed lost to a #15 Seed in the NCAA Tourney, yet it occurred twice the year before with #2 Seeds Duke and Missouri losing to #15 Seeds Lehigh and Norfolk State respectively)** It's all about points 5 and 6. if he wins just one of those five games, we're probably not having this conversation.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 17, 2015 20:07:38 GMT -5
What I'm still not seeing though is the answer to what I feel is an important question: What is the point when a coach's seat should get warm? And how close are we to that point?That's because you're ignoring the point that it wasn't three years without a tournament berth that got Esherick fired, but his public statements. If he had kept his mouth shut, he would have been teaching Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert the double fist rather than the Princeton offense. I think the only thing that gets a head basketball coach fired is something off the court that really embarrasses the University or his bosses. I think we could miss the tournament this year and next year and JT3's job would still be very secure. And I don't think that's a smart way to run a program that is a major revenue producer, and our only athletic program that serves that purpose, since we don't, and won't ever, have an FBS football team. I think it makes sense not to be too reactionary, but three years missing the tournament isn't reactionary. This is not like football, where the goal isn't so much performance and revenue as it is not embarrassing the University. This is a sport that the school invests major resources into, whose success on the court drives a lot of the school's public image, and that the school takes particular pride in. If that's the case, on the court performance should be a major driver in decision making regarding the program's leadership. These are all hypotheticals because we're at least a couple of years away from this point, but I think it's worth saying.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 17, 2015 20:57:39 GMT -5
That's because you're ignoring the point that it wasn't three years without a tournament berth that got Esherick fired, but his public statements. If he had kept his mouth shut, he would have been teaching Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert the double fist rather than the Princeton offense. I think the only thing that gets a head basketball coach fired is something off the court that really embarrasses the University or his bosses. I think we could miss the tournament this year and next year and JT3's job would still be very secure. And I don't think that's a smart way to run a program that is a major revenue producer, and our only athletic program that serves that purpose, since we don't, and won't ever, have an FBS football team. I think it makes sense not to be too reactionary, but three years missing the tournament isn't reactionary. This is not like football, where the goal isn't so much performance and revenue as it is not embarrassing the University. This is a sport that the school invests major resources into, whose success on the court drives a lot of the school's public image, and that the school takes particular pride in. If that's the case, on the court performance should be a major driver in decision making regarding the program's leadership. These are all hypotheticals because we're at least a couple of years away from this point, but I think it's worth saying. OK. You said it...
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 17, 2015 21:16:49 GMT -5
Rather than HC, i think it is our AD's seat that needs to get warm. Ever since the guy we had left for Stanford and some guy came from Cleveland State, our misery began. Not like AD is playing on the court, but maybe the influence is greater than we think.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 17, 2015 21:25:50 GMT -5
The seat should be colder than ever after today. We saw another great win, with very solid coaching, and the Hoyas have had a very solid season so far. This stuff is neither exact science nor easy. It is an unpredictable and crazy business. JT III is doing an excellent job, all while representing the University with integrity, grace, and style.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 18, 2015 1:36:36 GMT -5
From all the posts on this thread there seems to be some common ground agreement on the coaching of JTIII during his 10 years at Georgetown. Below is a mix of facts and opinions of critics: Positives:1. Represents the University well as the representative/face of Georgetown Athletics 2. Students athletes under his supervision overwhelming graduates 3. "0" NCAA rule violations during his tenure 4. For every season since his first in 2004/2005 JTIII has had a winning record and his team makes it to the NCAA or NIT Tournament 5. Won the 2012/2013 Big East Regular Season Championship as Co-Champion with Louisville (Pre-Power Conference Break-up) 6. JTIII has a legacy of coaching future NBA players: (Jeff Green, Roy Hibbert, Patrick Ewing Jr., DaJuan Summers, Greg Monroe, Hollis Thompson, Chris Wright, Henry Sims, Otto Porter) Negatives:
1. Critics state that JTIII appears slow to make adjustments to opponents and his teams make the same mistakes year in and year out 2. Teams under perform in the Post-season tournaments (NCAA/NIT) 3. Failed to win 1 NCAA or NIT game with 3 McDonald All-Americans in the starting line-up 4. The Hoyas have not won a BET Title since 2007 5. The Hoyas have not won 2 games in a row in the NCAA or NIT since 2007 6. JTIII & Georgetown holds the record of being the only coach/team in NCAA history to be eliminated in 5 consecutive appearances by double-digit seeds (2008, #10 Davidson 74 vs #2 Hoyas 70) (2010, #14 Ohio 97 vs #3 Hoyas 83) (2011, #11 VCU 74 vs #6 Hoyas 56) (2012, #11 NC State 66 vs #3 Hoyas 63) (2013, #15 FGCU 78 vs #2 Hoyas 68) ** 2013 was the 7th time that a #2 Seed lost to a #15 Seed in the NCAA Tourney, yet it occurred twice the year before with #2 Seeds Duke and Missouri losing to #15 Seeds Lehigh and Norfolk State respectively)** Interesting that TJIhoya from Dallas, Texas leaves out the Final Four from 07.
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