HoyaTex22
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 116
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Post by HoyaTex22 on Feb 6, 2015 18:41:07 GMT -5
Whenever benchmarking its obviously important to segment the market in terms of relevant peer groups. We are of course above average when considering the 300+ division 1 basketball teams (yeeaaah, we're better than GW!!!). As Esh learned in a moment of University clarity, Georgetown should be expected to at least make the Tournament every year. When considering the group of quality teams that are typically in discussions for the Tourney each year (i.e., our Peer Group), I would (maybe generously) say we are modestly above average. Of the 7 rounds in the NCAA tournament, our modern day performance has been:
2014: Not Invited 2013: Second Round 2012: Third Round 2011: Second Round 2010: First Round 2009: Not Invited
Doesn't exactly strike me as stellar performance. I don't mean to be abrasive, but I'm not satisfied by the apologists who say how great it is and that this is all we should expect from the program. Red staplers for all.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 6, 2015 18:55:15 GMT -5
Whenever benchmarking its obviously important to segment the market in terms of relevant peer groups. We are of course above average when considering the 300+ division 1 basketball teams (yeeaaah, we're better than GW!!!). As Esh learned in a moment of University clarity, Georgetown should be expected to at least make the Tournament every year. When considering the group of quality teams that are typically in discussions for the Tourney each year (i.e., our Peer Group), I would (maybe generously) say we are modestly above average. Of the 7 rounds in the NCAA tournament, our modern day performance has been: 2014: Not Invited 2013: Second Round 2012: Third Round 2011: Second Round 2010: First Round 2009: Not Invited Doesn't exactly strike me as stellar performance. I don't mean to be abrasive, but I'm not satisfied by the apologists who say how great it is and that this is all we should expect from the program. Red staplers for all. How many teams in Division 1 fit within the "Peer Group"? Quite frankly, there aren't many teams that are typically in the discussions for the tournament each year - certainly when you consider that John Thompson III has gotten there 7 of 10 years, and we were certainly "in the discussion" 8 of the 10 years, and maybe 9. To get that consistent, you need to look at the blue bloods like Kentucky, Duke, etc. If you only want to compare JT3 against Hall of Fame and consistent top 15 or 20 coaches, then maybe he's "modestly above average," but I think that's unreasonable. Georgetown is not a blue blood and could not attract the type of talent that those teams can attract (both on the court and among coaches). Again, this is the March syndrome. You ignore the fact that we got to the tournament and focus on the failures instead. You do realize that a worse coach (like Esherick) wouldn't have a chance to get there because he would have failed, right? The fact that you view 2013 only as a "Second Round" loss, with no mention about WINNING THE BIG EAST, shows that you (a) only care about March (which makes no sense to me, because the rest of the season affects whether you get their and your seeding, or (b) you are choosing to ignore it to push your point. For some people, the grass is always greener on the other side.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,910
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Post by Filo on Feb 6, 2015 19:55:36 GMT -5
This all new and novel stuff. Especially the recent tournament performance and the apparent lack of adaptability. Throw in the old "if you are defending him you are an apologist and accepting mediocrity" and this thread is off to a great start. Can we get something in about his failure to call time-outs and, if we are lucky, something about the Princetown offense holding the players back? Thanks in advance.
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playtyler
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 249
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Post by playtyler on Feb 6, 2015 20:54:19 GMT -5
Lighten up Frances.
We have no facilities, no home court, an old school coach and we don't cheat in recruiting. So we won't be competing with Kentucky, etc. for McDonalds AA's. But there was a stretch of 6 straight years (2008-2013) where we were ranked in the top 10 at some point during the season. We won the Big East and were a 2 seed in the tournament in 2013. We were ranked 24 last week. We have a great Freshman class. The problem recently, aside from some issues losing to teams that get hot against us (FGCU, Ohio, Davidson) for whatever reason (maybe coaching or more likely players playing tight in the NCAA tournament), was that after Coach's first stellar coaching staff (Broadus, Sid Johnson), the assistant coaches that came after, Brennan, Cox, Hunter did not do a good job recruiting. Now we have one sophomore (Cameron) and two juniors (DSR and Hayes), only one of which is a Big East level player. Not good for two years. Changes were made. With Broadus back and the other new coaches we got Josh Smith, our current Freshman, Agai and our incoming Freshman. Coach's record in the past is good and the future is back on track.
I am not a blind Thompson supporter. I have no idea why Hopkins was not in the game on the last defensive possession against Providence. Instead Smith is in gives up a cheap foul and free throws and fouls out of the game, when we needed him on the next offensive possession. I also think that Paul White and LJ Peak need to play more. Campbell has been good the last couple games, but he is a defensive liability and we needed offense in the last six minutes. Needed White and Peak.
We are going to be decent to good this year. Might be a tough out in the tournament. Next year we are going to be good. Very good.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 6, 2015 20:55:05 GMT -5
Groundhog Day: lose a couple of games and here come the guys who never show up after a win.
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Just Cos
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Eat 'em up Hoyas
Posts: 1,507
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Post by Just Cos on Feb 6, 2015 21:10:08 GMT -5
I would hope that alums of a place like G-Town frame their thinking in the higher achieving/expectation category though. If winning at all costs or ends justify the means is your definition of higher achieving/expectations then I think you missed something along the way at Georgetown (I'm assuming you went there based on your post). Now I know you didn't say those exact words but the reality of your statement is that if we want to compete with the top dogs we have to do things differently. Unfortunately I don't see a path to get there unless we lose a part of what Georgetown University stands for along the way. #deflatedbasketball
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 7, 2015 0:54:07 GMT -5
Oh look, He who must not be named's minions flooding the boards with new threads with great titles like "Groundhog Day".
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HoyaTex22
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 116
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Post by HoyaTex22 on Feb 7, 2015 13:04:11 GMT -5
The reason why many of us don't post often is because so many regulars from this board promptly bash anyone who dares to question the state of the program. I find it disheartening that so many are satisfied with what I and many, many other alums (i.e., the silent majority who don't want to deal with the backlash from the like-minded band of regulars) find mediocre performance. I guess the vocal majority of this board is satisfied with 70% entrance into the tourney and consistent early exits.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,608
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 7, 2015 13:27:34 GMT -5
HoyaTex22: speaking personally (and not as a moderator), I have no problem with anyone who has an opinion about the program. Also speaking personally, there are plenty of areas for improvement - there always are in any program. I doubt anyone is actually "satisfied" with "mediocre performance." However, anyone who posts an opinion here, especially one that is strong, uses aggressive language and stakes out a particular view that is contrary to others' views (either for or against a coaching style, for instance) should expect pushback and discussion. It is a discussion board for supporters of the school and program, after all.
Speaking as moderator, I would make two points. One, the thread you started was combined with this ongoing thread because it made similar points to ones already made here and was basically on the same topic. Two, whatever you or any poster thinks of the coaching staff, it has long been board policy that this forum is not a forum to push for firing (or getting rid of, or whatever euphamism one wants to use) the coaching staff. Not saying you did that at all (you didn't), but making that point because posters often forget that.
I guess my long-winded reply is to say that if you or any other poster stakes out a position, expect some discussion both from those who disagree and those who agree. I seriously doubt that anyone who takes the time to post here is satisfied with mediocrity. Expect to get some argument about what the definition of mediocrity is, though.
In response to your post (personal, not moderator opinion), Thompson's teams went to the NIT in 2004-05 (his first year), 2008-09 (the year after the Hibbert/Wallace/Ewing Jr class graduated), and last year (2013-14). I have a hard time getting upset about the first one and last year the team was hamstrung by 2 starters who should have been available but were not. Of those three years, only the 08-09 team never really put it together and that season began to fall apart after the Duke game at Cameron with the phantom technical foul on Greg Monroe. I certainly want the team to be NCAA tournament caliber every year. Most early unexpected losses in the NCAA tournament are at least partially due to bad matchups (and certainly have been in large part for the Hoyas' recent losses). Is there room for improvement? Of course. Does this coach's performance over his career here indicate the program is in dire trouble? In my opinion absolutely not. The changes in assistant coaching staff and upgraded recruiting classes this year and the next two years indicate very positive change as well.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Feb 7, 2015 14:16:50 GMT -5
The real danger to our program and to Coach Thompson is that our record on the court, particularly in March, declines to the point that we no longer command serious television revenue and exposure and our attendance slips to unacceptable levels. While Georgetown will stand behind a coach who has brought us to the final 4,helped fund a state of the art practice facility and produced a strong group of NBA alumni, the people who run FOX/CBS/ESPN and manufacture sneakers may not and it is conceivable that Georgetown may no longer have the revenue to support a big time coach and program. This is particularly true in the dog eat dog world of college sports of today where we see the 65 power schools eliminating from existence the other 70 schools in FBS football. The Big East of today is essentially a Mid Major league with certain teams who have a great heritage like us. We need to perform and make plays now.
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sweetness
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 839
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Post by sweetness on Feb 7, 2015 15:32:51 GMT -5
I'm not advocating a coaching change but JT3 brought us to the final four with Esherick's recruits (i.e. Green and Hibbert).
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,775
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 7, 2015 15:38:10 GMT -5
Thanks for playing. Please arrive home safely.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Feb 7, 2015 15:46:33 GMT -5
Lighten up Frances. We have no facilities, no home court, an old school coach and we don't cheat in recruiting. I know every fan wants to assume this about their own team, but it's only true to an extent. Maybe we don't cheat like Kentucky, or Arizona, or Syracuse, but I think it's naive to believe that any major D1 team is totally clean.
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Just Cos
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Eat 'em up Hoyas
Posts: 1,507
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Post by Just Cos on Feb 7, 2015 16:41:51 GMT -5
Agree POD but the difference can be jaywalking vs. DUI...but I agree.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2015 17:07:24 GMT -5
I'm not advocating a coaching change but JT3 brought us to the final four with Esherick's recruits (i.e. Green and Hibbert). And Esherick never got us close with his recruits. What's your point?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 17:17:31 GMT -5
I'm not advocating a coaching change but JT3 brought us to the final four with Esherick's recruits (i.e. Green and Hibbert). Oh god, this nonsense? Look, JT3 didn't make the tournament his first year with players that wound up being 1. an NBA all star center (Hibbert) 2. a near all-star caliber forward (Green), 3. a dead-eye 3 point shooter (wallace) and 4. an above average group of talented upperclassmen (Bowman, Cook, Owens) While I love our freshman class I don;t think they will be as good talent-wise as Hibbert-Green and I think DSR/Smith are both a little bit mismatched for the ideal scheme for our frehsman. If JT3 makes the tourney this year, which I think he will, and which I think is really the only real goal for this program this season, the year will be a success. The only thing I care about is getting our freshman some NCAA experience and hopefully a win to get them ready for next year. We finally have some good classes coming in and hopefully we can keep these guys together long-enough to finally break through in a year or two.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,910
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Post by Filo on Feb 7, 2015 17:22:53 GMT -5
I'm not advocating a coaching change but JT3 brought us to the final four with Esherick's recruits (i.e. Green and Hibbert). Oh god, this nonsense? Look, JT3 didn't make the tournament his first year with players that wound up being 1. an NBA all star center (Hibbert) 2. a near all-star caliber forward (Green), 3. a dead-eye 3 point shooter (wallace) and 4. an above average group of talented upperclassmen (Bowman, Cook, Owens) While I love our freshman class I don;t think they will be as good talent-wise as Hibbert-Green and I think DSR/Smith are both a little bit mismatched for the ideal scheme for our frehsman. If JT3 makes the tourney this year, which I think he will, and which I think is really the only real goal for this program this season, the year will be a success. The only thing I care about is getting our freshman some NCAA experience and hopefully a win to get them ready for next year. We finally have some good classes coming in and hopefully we can keep these guys together long-enough to finally break through in a year or two. I am not nearly as optimistic for next year. I like the class coming in, and Agau may be a decent addition, but I don't see the season being much different from this one. Perhaps losing Smith and Hopkins will be addition by subtraction. Kinda bummed right now, as I thought we were going to be a better team at this point in the season.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 17:27:11 GMT -5
Oh god, this nonsense? Look, JT3 didn't make the tournament his first year with players that wound up being 1. an NBA all star center (Hibbert) 2. a near all-star caliber forward (Green), 3. a dead-eye 3 point shooter (wallace) and 4. an above average group of talented upperclassmen (Bowman, Cook, Owens) While I love our freshman class I don;t think they will be as good talent-wise as Hibbert-Green and I think DSR/Smith are both a little bit mismatched for the ideal scheme for our frehsman. If JT3 makes the tourney this year, which I think he will, and which I think is really the only real goal for this program this season, the year will be a success. The only thing I care about is getting our freshman some NCAA experience and hopefully a win to get them ready for next year. We finally have some good classes coming in and hopefully we can keep these guys together long-enough to finally break through in a year or two. I am not nearly as optimistic for next year. I like the class coming in, and Agau may be a decent addition, but I don't see the season being much different from this one. Perhaps losing Smith and Hopkins will be addition by subtraction. Kinda bummed right now, as I thought we were going to be a better team at this point in the season. I see next year as a little better than this year. I think Copeland and Peak step up big time. Never underestimate the growth of frosh, especially talented ones. The big year will be in 2 years though. Govan should have some experience at center and we will have Copeland-White-Peak-Campebll as upperclassmen. That could be a top 10 team.... If you put a gun to my head I'd say this year makes the tourney and wins a game. Next year makes the Sweet 16. In two years they make the elite 8.....
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sweetness
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 839
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Post by sweetness on Feb 7, 2015 17:57:54 GMT -5
I'm not advocating a coaching change but JT3 brought us to the final four with Esherick's recruits (i.e. Green and Hibbert). And Esherick never got us close with his recruits. What's your point? The prior post was going through JT3's accomplishments - I think the point is self-explanatory.
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Post by michaeldm9 on Feb 7, 2015 18:16:50 GMT -5
I don't want to say the wrong and get booted.
My frustration is the team losing the same way. I think JTIII Xs and Os are great. Out side of pick roll, I think how he teaches the game is excellent. But there has been 2 consistent recipes for the team losses over the JTIII Tenure;
1) Committing tons of stupid foul and allowing the other team to take free throws early in the half. 2) Tons of stupid turnover.
And this year they add a new one;
1) Transition defense.
It doesn't seem that when the team is not executing JTIII has ability to make adjustments on the fly. It seems like he just Stand and watch.
I also feel his player rotation leaves a lot to be desired. Hayes should get more time than they do. It can't get no worse. Let them gain there confidence like he allows other. Simms and Vee fall under the same category when they was on the team. Over the last 5 years, JTIII favorite players are not getting better and adding to there game. Nate turns the team into 5 on 4 when they are on offence; Vaughn stunk down the stretch his senior Year; Josh play is uninspired. But hey when you are on JTIII good side, you get to play with no accountability.
This has turned into a pattern
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