turbohoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 320
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Post by turbohoya on Feb 2, 2015 14:10:18 GMT -5
St.Louis - like minded university, Urban campus, decent program, 10k arena that is full often enough and a new TV market...
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CaliHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,184
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Post by CaliHoya on Feb 2, 2015 14:22:25 GMT -5
After what happened with Butler and Stevens, I'd definitely say NO to VCU. They are a stepping stone school that's not in a major market. There was an article recently where even VCU's AD admits that it's "inevitable" that Smart leaves. Why take a program for its coach when the coach will inevitably leave?
I'd only add schools with HUGE basketball pedigree and great attendance. I'd also add bonus points if they can help fill MSG for the Big East Tournament. In my mind, we only add UConn and Memphis, but only if they drop football. I think the economics will force them that way eventually anyway. But for now? Let's stick with 10 schools and get the rivalries built up.
The 2nd year of the Big East has been incredibly successful already. The media has seized on the FACT that the Big East is one of the top 2-3 conferences in the nation. Promising coaches and recruits are taking note that, yes, the Big East is here to stay as a major conference. And looking at next year, I think we may actually be better.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 2, 2015 14:25:24 GMT -5
My belief is that we should immediately add VCU after the season and then put the hard sell on a hoops-only Gonzaga invitation or Wichita State and bring the conference up to 12 teams. We have to keep improving, showing positive momentum, and building our brand as the best-in-class, hoops-focused conference architecture where basketball players come to play hoops. Our conference becomes the #1 alternative to every FBS school where football rules the campus. Adding Shaka to the conference would be a huge get, and would likely keep him at VCU for longer than with no Big East affiliation. I actually disagree with this for a number of reasons: 1. This season has proven to be an extra-strong season for the Big East, with the likelihood of a better NCAA representation than last year. Sure, there are some weak teams but every conference needs some weak teams. From a competitive standpoint, we simply do not need more teams now. 2. The huge debate over adding team X shows that there is no clear team that merits immediate admission. I do happen to agree that VCU would be the next logical addition, but there's no guarantee that Shaka Smart would stay (like Brad Stevens). After VCU, there is no obvious right choice. Wichita State is good now, but where will they be in a few years? 3. "We have to keep improving, showing positive momentum, and building our brand as the best-in-class, hoops-focused conference architecture where basketball players come to play hoops. Our conference becomes the #1 alternative to every FBS school where football rules the campus." There is nothing about these goals that requires adding additional schools, some of which may not live up to the current Big East standard. 4. The talk in other posts about "getting" UConn to drop football or making Northeastern better is ridiculous. You cannot just say "I'm going to have a high level basketball team," and poof, there it is. Just take a look at some of the newer NCAA teams and how long it takes for them to become relevant. We should avoid any school that does not already have a proven level of success at a high level. We do not have room for more bottom dwellers. 5. Gonzaga sounds great in theory, but this is not going to happen realistically - at least anytime soon. In my opinion, we should only add teams if (a) Fox Sports requires it on a condition of continued funding/TV, or (b) a high-level basketball program wants to join the Big East. There are no schools that meet category (b) for me at the moment.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 2, 2015 14:27:53 GMT -5
I would add that I do not care about markets. The Big East is already in a ton of big markets. Will adding St. Louis or Wichita really help?
The reason the Big East is having a successful season is because the teams are good, and they are resulting in compelling games. We need high quality basketball, not useless TV markets.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Feb 2, 2015 14:29:41 GMT -5
^ding ding ding. We have a winner. Well said CaliHoya
Memphis and Uconn. That's it. That's all. Let the chips fall. The Big East is in a position to wait it out currently. There's 0 need to rush and I think they are doing just that.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,743
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 2, 2015 14:32:11 GMT -5
#1 reason why we shouldn't be discussing expansion: someone brought up Northeastern as a serious option.
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,769
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 2, 2015 14:38:58 GMT -5
I enjoy reading the "Let's add VCU to the Big East" posts, and the resulting aftermath/furor, when they appear every three weeks. It's sort of like the swallows returning to Capistrano.
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,924
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 2, 2015 14:41:53 GMT -5
Why dilute the Big East brand with additional teams, that have no gaurantee of remaining good? Any good marketing person would tell you, the Big East needs to rebuild its equity in the eyes of the college basketball fan. Adding teams, creating more confusion does the opposite. Considering the conference is garnering some great attention this season and having a good season so far there should be no critical reason to expand. The focus should be on getting all members to invest in facilities, coaching staffs and recruiting.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,007
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Post by dense on Feb 2, 2015 14:42:23 GMT -5
#1 reason why we shouldn't be discussing expansion: someone brought up Northeastern as a serious option. I don't think expansion should happen soon but people are all about VCU who were in the CAA when they went to the final 4. Boston has no team that is making any noise in college basketball. It's a private school with decent enrollment and been one of the best schools basketball in the CAA since joining. Its an urban campus and can attract the people to support. No one cares about BC basketball. I am not suggesting them as right now they are ready. Right now the big east isn't ready for expansion.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,007
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Post by dense on Feb 2, 2015 14:46:41 GMT -5
My belief is that we should immediately add VCU after the season and then put the hard sell on a hoops-only Gonzaga invitation or Wichita State and bring the conference up to 12 teams. We have to keep improving, showing positive momentum, and building our brand as the best-in-class, hoops-focused conference architecture where basketball players come to play hoops. Our conference becomes the #1 alternative to every FBS school where football rules the campus. Adding Shaka to the conference would be a huge get, and would likely keep him at VCU for longer than with no Big East affiliation. I actually disagree with this for a number of reasons: 1. This season has proven to be an extra-strong season for the Big East, with the likelihood of a better NCAA representation than last year. Sure, there are some weak teams but every conference needs some weak teams. From a competitive standpoint, we simply do not need more teams now. 2. The huge debate over adding team X shows that there is no clear team that merits immediate admission. I do happen to agree that VCU would be the next logical addition, but there's no guarantee that Shaka Smart would stay (like Brad Stevens). After VCU, there is no obvious right choice. Wichita State is good now, but where will they be in a few years? 3. "We have to keep improving, showing positive momentum, and building our brand as the best-in-class, hoops-focused conference architecture where basketball players come to play hoops. Our conference becomes the #1 alternative to every FBS school where football rules the campus." There is nothing about these goals that requires adding additional schools, some of which may not live up to the current Big East standard. 4. The talk in other posts about "getting" UConn to drop football or making Northeastern better is ridiculous. You cannot just say "I'm going to have a high level basketball team," and poof, there it is. Just take a look at some of the newer NCAA teams and how long it takes for them to become relevant. We should avoid any school that does not already have a proven level of success at a high level. We do not have room for more bottom dwellers. 5. Gonzaga sounds great in theory, but this is not going to happen realistically - at least anytime soon. In my opinion, we should only add teams if (a) Fox Sports requires it on a condition of continued funding/TV, or (b) a high-level basketball program wants to join the Big East. There are no schools that meet category (b) for me at the moment. I agree I am definitely in the camp of expansion shouldn't happen for awhile. But the landscape of what teams are revelent changes quickly. Gonzaga suggestion is just silly. No one is staying up till 10 pm to watch a midweek game.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,888
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 2, 2015 15:10:24 GMT -5
#1 reason why we shouldn't be discussing expansion: someone brought up Northeastern as a serious option. I don't think expansion should happen soon but people are all about VCU who were in the CAA when they went to the final 4. Boston has no team that is making any noise in college basketball. It's a private school with decent enrollment and been one of the best schools basketball in the CAA since joining. Its an urban campus and can attract the people to support. No one cares about BC basketball. I am not suggesting them as right now they are ready. Right now the big east isn't ready for expansion. Butler was in the Horizon league when they went to the Final 4 and to my knowledge Creighton hasn't been to a final 4 so why were they good enough?
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,888
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 2, 2015 15:14:54 GMT -5
I enjoy reading the "Let's add VCU to the Big East" posts, and the resulting aftermath/furor, when they appear every three weeks. It's sort of like the swallows returning to Capistrano. I hear you NJ, I want so badly to stay away but the excuses of why VCU is a bad choice sucks me in every time..
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 2, 2015 15:27:16 GMT -5
VCU would be an awesome addition.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 2, 2015 15:34:29 GMT -5
I don't think expansion should happen soon but people are all about VCU who were in the CAA when they went to the final 4. Boston has no team that is making any noise in college basketball. It's a private school with decent enrollment and been one of the best schools basketball in the CAA since joining. Its an urban campus and can attract the people to support. No one cares about BC basketball. I am not suggesting them as right now they are ready. Right now the big east isn't ready for expansion. Butler was in the Horizon league when they went to the Final 4 and to my knowledge Creighton hasn't been to a final 4 so why were they good enough? I agree that Butler and Creighton were both on the margins, but I think they made the most sense if we had to get to 10 (which we did). Xavier was an easy choice because they've had a ton of NCAA appearances, and they clearly deserved to be in the Big East. With regard to Butler, I do think their consecutive appearances in the championship game were key to their additional, but they also have 11 NCAA appearances since 1997, which is a pretty decent level of success. Clearly, Stevens took that to another level, but they seem to be a program that values success. They also draw well. Creighton has had 7 NCAA appearances since 1997. They are also a huge draw at home and seem to have an invested alumni base. They have also appeared in some form of post-season tournament every year since 1998 (likely to end this year), which means even when they aren't NCAA quality, they are not horrible either. Could you have swapped in VCU for Creighton or Butler? Sure. I know that for some, the fact that VCU was a public school was a deterrent. I'll never understand that logic, but I think that it's hard to argue that any teams would have been clear favorites over Butler or Creighton (at least among those who realistically would have joined the Big East).
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 2, 2015 15:36:54 GMT -5
VCU would be an awesome addition. I think pretty much everybody here agrees with you. VCU, right now, would be an awesome addition. The bigger issue is would VCU without Shaka Smart be an awesome addition? I'm just not sure. Plus, we have the luxury of waiting. It's like we have to worry about some other conference snapping VCU up. They'd leave in an instant if we offered. For Georgetown, VCU has the added benefit of a regional rival that would likely draw well at the Verizon Center, too.
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Buckets
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,656
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Post by Buckets on Feb 2, 2015 15:48:11 GMT -5
#1 reason why we shouldn't be discussing expansion: someone brought up Northeastern as a serious option. I don't think expansion should happen soon but people are all about VCU who were in the CAA when they went to the final 4. Boston has no team that is making any noise in college basketball. It's a private school with decent enrollment and been one of the best schools basketball in the CAA since joining. Its an urban campus and can attract the people to support. No one cares about BC basketball. I am not suggesting them as right now they are ready. Right now the big east isn't ready for expansion. Nobody cares about BC basketball because the Northeast corridor is five pro sports cities that aren't ever going to embrace college sports teams. The closest you're going to get is Penn State which is nowhere near Philadelphia and maybe UMD. I know people like to pretend it's the 80s and St. John's is a few wins away from being the talk of New York, but if you look at the interest in Philadelphia for Villanova and us in DC, it's just not going to happen. This is probably more true in Boston than anywhere else. If you need to add a Boston team, grab UMass, but adding a Boston team is a terrible idea and I live here. If I were targeting one team, it's SLU, which I'll admit is due mostly to how they packed an arena for Larry Hughes 15 years ago. I think if they were in a major conference and could get kids like Bradley Beal, Ben McLemore, or (depending on how liberal you are with geography) Otto Porter to stay home, the community would come out in full force. That said, this isn't that easy, as DePaul and St. John's have ably demonstrated for many seasons in a row now. Also, I think you try to keep an even number in the conference and I don't like Wichita State or VCU as the 12th.
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SDHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,330
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Post by SDHoya on Feb 2, 2015 16:03:26 GMT -5
I think the test should be this: If (coach's name) was no longer at (Expansion target), would we still deem them worthy?
Applying the test:
VCU--- had some decent seasons before Shaka, but certainly not high-major caliber. Small market. State School. Has developed into a nationally renowned program. Unlikely they could maintain that image with a drop off year or two.
Wichita St.---Like VCU, had some decent years before Marshall, but never anywhere close to the national spotlight. Small market. State School. Not great geographically for anyone not named Creighton. Pretty good arena. Unsure what they bring to the table if they go back to pre-Marshall caliber.
St. Louis--- Rick Majerus' players have basically come through by now, so we can already see what they are like without him as coach. Larger market, good crowds, similar profile to other BE schools. Very little recent success before Majerus.
Dayton---Archie Miller has shown to be talented, but Dayton has been and will continue to be of decent caliber with or without him. Small market, Catholic, great arena. Doesn't really fill a market need as we already have XU.
Gonzaga---Mark Few ain't going nowhere, but even if he did, Zags were good before him and likely would continue to be good after him. Small Market, Catholic, waaaaaaaaay far away from all the other schools. Would immediately raise the BE profile, but would be poor fit geographically.
UCONN/Memphis---No brainers save for football. As bad as they both are on the gridiron, not sure thats going anywhere.
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dense
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,007
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Post by dense on Feb 2, 2015 16:04:30 GMT -5
I don't think expansion should happen soon but people are all about VCU who were in the CAA when they went to the final 4. Boston has no team that is making any noise in college basketball. It's a private school with decent enrollment and been one of the best schools basketball in the CAA since joining. Its an urban campus and can attract the people to support. No one cares about BC basketball. I am not suggesting them as right now they are ready. Right now the big east isn't ready for expansion. Nobody cares about BC basketball because the Northeast corridor is five pro sports cities that aren't ever going to embrace college sports teams. The closest you're going to get is Penn State which is nowhere near Philadelphia and maybe UMD. I know people like to pretend it's the 80s and St. John's is a few wins away from being the talk of New York, but if you look at the interest in Philadelphia for Villanova and us in DC, it's just not going to happen. This is probably more true in Boston than anywhere else. If you need to add a Boston team, grab UMass, but adding a Boston team is a terrible idea and I live here. If I were targeting one team, it's SLU, which I'll admit is due mostly to how they packed an arena for Larry Hughes 15 years ago. I think if they were in a major conference and could get kids like Bradley Beal, Ben McLemore, or (depending on how liberal you are with geography) Otto Porter to stay home, the community would come out in full force. That said, this isn't that easy, as DePaul and St. John's have ably demonstrated for many seasons in a row now. Also, I think you try to keep an even number in the conference and I don't like Wichita State or VCU as the 12th. I lived in Rhode Island for 9 years and have a friend that went to Northeastern and one that went to BU. Boston doesn't care about college teams right now because the pro teams are good and the college teams all stink. Has nothing to do with apathy for college sports. The schools that are added should be private institutions. UConn would be my only exception because they're out of the football musical chairs game.
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boxout05
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 572
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Post by boxout05 on Feb 2, 2015 16:10:58 GMT -5
I've listened to WFAN everyday for the past 18 or so years. New York City gets amped for St. John's when they're good.
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 2, 2015 16:20:39 GMT -5
The schools that are added should be private institutions. UConn would be my only exception because they're out of the football musical chairs game. Why only private institutions? If it's b/c of football worries, well, I don't think VCU's club football team is going to get an SEC invite anytime soon.
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