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Post by Ranch Dressing on Jan 6, 2015 16:26:27 GMT -5
Interesting to review the current RPI Top 50 for teams we might approach to join the new best-in-class Big East:
4 - VCU 16 - ODU 18 - Dayton 38- SMU 49 - Davidson
There are a lot of good teams out there that can augment our current offering. Two 7-team divisions would give each team 12 games in division (2x6) plus 6 games ex-division (each team would miss one ex-division team each year).
Creighton Marquette DePaul St. Louis Butler Dayton Xavier
Georgetown St. John's Providence Villanova Seton Hall VCU ODU/Davidson
That looks like a pretty good league to me.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jan 6, 2015 16:35:03 GMT -5
Why? The only team I would consider is UCon - the rest of those can come in as soon as they buy out Depaul.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 6, 2015 16:42:12 GMT -5
Plus I would be able to attend games at VCU and Davidson, which would be excellent.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 6, 2015 16:45:33 GMT -5
Where to begin. . .where to begin.
In no particular order of importance or significance:
1. You start out by listing teams in the current RPI top 50, which omits St. Louis but includes Southern Methodist, and then come up with a proposed fourteen team league, which includes St. Louis and omits Southern Methodist. What is the new case for inclusion of St. Louis that has not previously been cited in past discussions? Yes, SLU is a Jesuit university with a basketball program, and it is in a major midwestern city. That isn't enough.
2. What new geographic market does Dayton bring to the Big East? We already have southwest Ohio, courtesy of Xavier.
3. Virginia Commonwealth and Old Dominion are significantly larger schools than other Big East schools. How much do these schools, which are both public universities, have in common with the Big East?
4. Davidson is smaller than the smallest of the Big East schools, Providence. It may have more in common with the league than VCU or ODU, but how does this improve the league?
5. SMU is a football school in Texas. Once Larry Brown retires, that program won't be worthwhile.
6. By splitting into two separate divisions, you are effectively hosing the new Big East schools, who were solicited to join up with the so-called Catholic 7 with the promise of seeing Georgetown, Villanova et al on a regular basis in Cincinnati, Indianapolis and Omaha. Now, through expansion, they may get one home game every two years, if that, depending on rotation. That is incredibly unfair to the newest members of the league.
7. Why the rush to expand? The "new" Big East is still establishing a foothold in the basketball market, in the eyes of many. How does expansion help establish the Big East any more than is presently being shown through the high level of competition we are seeing?
Expanding to any of your proposed locations, in my view, brings more questions than answers. I'd be happy with staying put at ten teams for the immediate future, let the dust settle with football programs at other schools, let the inevitable round of conference-raiding decimate the ACC (in favor of the SEC, Big 12 and B1G), and then welcome UConn with open arms.
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gunny
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Post by gunny on Jan 6, 2015 16:50:07 GMT -5
I agree 100% with njhoya. The Big 12 is going to have to do something since they can't hold a football championship game with a 10 team conference. Let the dust settle and see who is left. UConn may end up begging to get in the Big East.
Also, why the rush to expand?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 6, 2015 17:21:54 GMT -5
The problem with looking at RPI is that it doesn't tell you anything about whether these programs have had sustained success over the last several years and their odds of sustaining that success in the future. I realize some Big East programs have largely been in that same place in recent years (like DePaul, Seton Hall until this year), but there's nothing we can do about that. The key is not adding additional programs that will turn out to have a good year here and there, but never sustained success.
The Big East brand needs to be founded on rock-solid to elite basketball. The problem with VCU is that it's unclear if they can succeed without Shaka Smart (Brad Stevens shows you can add a school largely on the basis of a coach's success and have that evaporate very quickly). The same could be said of SMU, and it's unclear whether St. Louis will succeed now, either.
The biggest question to ask is, how does X addition really help the Big East? Of the schools that would instantly say "yes" to an invitation, none of them fit this requirement for now. I say wait and see what happens. In my mind, the only reason to expand now would be if Fox Sports required it to keep our contract - and clearly they do not.
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Post by arlingtonhoya05 on Jan 6, 2015 17:23:24 GMT -5
The Big East could use a couple big schools with large alumni bases. Cash rules everything around us. The league desperately needs improved ratings for games on Fox Sports, otherwise our next TV contract will be paltry. No/ little TV money = bye bye big time Big East basketball.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 6, 2015 17:37:37 GMT -5
Am still a big proponent of the BE going to at least 12-14 schools to expand its base. However,right now what it really needs is for the Hoyas, DePaul and St Johns/Seton Hall to become nationally relevant again and increase local interest in the community for those programs. What better opportunity than for St. Johns and Seton Hall to capture the NY/NJ market with the Knicks and the Nets absolutely horrid teams. Nova has taken advantage of the 76ers being an aftterthought. The Hoyas are not so lucky with Maryland, GW and Virginia all having strong years. Ditto for Depaul playing in the eternal shadow of the Bulls and Notre Dame.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 6, 2015 17:42:16 GMT -5
The Big East could use a couple big schools with large alumni bases. Cash rules everything around us. The league desperately needs improved ratings for games on Fox Sports, otherwise our next TV contract will be paltry. No/ little TV money = bye bye big time Big East basketball. The twelve-year television contract with Fox runs through the 2024-2025 season. We have some time here. No need to expand right now.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Jan 6, 2015 17:50:06 GMT -5
The current bunch we have needs to win, especially in March and April.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Jan 6, 2015 18:05:16 GMT -5
I never said expansion had to happen and never said expansion had to happen immediately. I was simply pointing out that several teams we have discussed before as potential expansion targets are having very good seasons in 2014-15 (at least from an RPI perspective).
I do think the Big East conference would be wise to seriously consider expansion in its long-range planning. We have the core teams now, but we should always endeavor to build out a best-in-class, hoops-focused conference architecture that will be the envy of all basketball programs around the nation. Coaches and recruits will choose to work and play at schools where hoops rule the campus. More than anything, it's about building a brand and selling it to the world. Part of this brand building, I believe, will include expansion, perhaps across the entire country to include teams on the west coast like Gonzaga and St. Mary's. It should all be on the table. Adding individual markets is one consideration, but a successful conference is greater than the sum of its parts. Fox Sports knows we are not all of a sudden going to add a huge new market out there. The markets are known and we are limited to schools with no football. It's the idea of a great Big East basketball, whether than covers the New York market, Boston market, or Ohio market.
We made a very important step two years ago dropping all of the football schools. It's time for us to continue seizing the reins, controlling our own destiny, and building something great again.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 6, 2015 18:21:39 GMT -5
Ranch, I interpreted your posting as a call for immediate expansion because of your reference to current RPI numbers; if I misinterpreted your position I apologize. I agree that future expansion of the conference should be considered as part of long-range planning, and that the idea of "seizing the reins, controlling our own destiny" should not be abandoned.
I think a lot of this will sort itself out over the next few years as the Power 5 conferences finish their own expansions to absorb additional football programs. That is when I see schools like Connecticut, Cincinnati and Memphis reevaluating the cost-benefit analysis of playing D-1 football. I am NOT saying that I would grab these three schools, if they were interested in joining the Big East; until they have made a decision as to the level at which they wish to compete in football, consideration of their athletic programs for the conference is premature.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 6, 2015 18:41:21 GMT -5
Given that the immediate television concerns are locked, the Big East should only truly consider expansion for one reason:
Immediate and long term basketball success.
I would say media market as well, but is there really anything out there that would grant us a media market worth having? If there was a "Chicago" team that would give us it over DePaul or a real "NY" team, maybe, but we have Philly, DC, NY and Chicago really as best you can in college basketball (where there's an alternative). The only one is UConn, and they have the basketball history to consider under my main point.
Get good teams willing to put resources in for long term success. Anything else is eh.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Jan 6, 2015 23:10:33 GMT -5
UConn and their football program still dream about getting invited to the ACC. Until that dream is over our dream of them joining the BE is far fetched.
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gujake
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Post by gujake on Jan 6, 2015 23:40:32 GMT -5
In theory, I like the idea of expanding. The more good teams you have, the more NCAA berths you can get, and that number is important for perception.
But I think the Big East is being very smart to wait and see. Things are still uncertain with realignment. Although it's unlikely, maybe a UConn does become available.
And there are no obvious additions anyway, so why rush to pick now? If the conference had decided to expand a year ago, they could very well have chosen Saint Louis who was on a nice three year run. Now, this year, they are terrible (KenPom #242). Compare SLU with a school like Creighton also having a down year, but at KenPom #95.
I think the conference should be very careful to only add schools with a long tradition of winning, and none of the candidate schools really have that. VCU is close and I like that they're a true east coast school with an exciting program. But man, I don't know if I'm confident they would maintain their success without Shaka Smart. I don't think any of the other options move the needle. Better to wait and see how things shake out.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Jan 7, 2015 0:02:56 GMT -5
UConn would be the only school we should be waiting on when they finally realize how awful the AAC is and park football somewhere else.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 7, 2015 0:10:11 GMT -5
UConn and their football program still dream about getting invited to the ACC. Until that dream is over our dream of them joining the BE is far fetched. Well, it is nice to dream. Unless their dream also involves Boston College leaving the ACC, the Huskies are never getting into that league.
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boxout05
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Post by boxout05 on Jan 7, 2015 1:07:59 GMT -5
There's no need to expand immediately, but it seems inevitable. I used to think a spot in a Western Division was SLU's to lose because of the market, cultural fit, and recent success ... but we can afford to let them prove they can win without Majerus. First, they aren't going anywhere. Second, there isn't a natural addition from the east coast - maybe Richmond or Davidson but that's expansion for expansion's sake. Wichita State and VCU would work for me and I hope they'd accept, but I assume the decision makers have reservations about their size/pedigree/state funding/etc and that's why they never received serious discussion. Oh well.
Most importantly, UConn and Memphis would be game changing additions if they give up football but I can't see that happening until another round of P5 expanions plays out. I wouldn't even trust a team a crappy FBS football program like ODU until then.
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Jan 7, 2015 1:14:56 GMT -5
Only thing that changes our ten team league is $ and there are only a few teams that make sense. We get to pick those few so no need to force the situation besides quiet conversations that none of us will be privy to.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 7, 2015 7:17:30 GMT -5
Rapid expansion for expansion's sake is a great idea
Sincerely,
Phil Woosnam
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