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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 21, 2014 22:16:23 GMT -5
DSR didn't have a good game. A lot of people are emphasizing his passing up three point shots, but I would argue equally bad (and probably worse) is his tendency toward taking long 2 point jump shots. The team as a whole has been taking way too many of these jump shots, often only a foot or two in front of the three point line. These shots are really killing us. The stretch of awfulness began when Hayes was in the game. I'm skeptical that he can really contribute much of anything at this point, but I suppose we will probably find out. The half-court offense needs a lot of work, and our defense must get tighter. It's frustrating that things fell apart, but we did have decisive control of the game for about the first 30 minutes.But hey, a win is a win. Just like we basically get no credit for a one possession loss to Wisconsin, nobody will care in March that we only won by three points. My bigger concern is the team getting into shape to beat the better Big East teams. What turned the momentum was when Hayes came in the game and was counterproductive on both offense and defense. We were headed for a double digit blowout and let them back into the game. For that faction that thinks that JTIII has a low IQ for not playing Hayes, this is the cost of what is going to happen (close games and loses) when giving developmental players time at non garbage time points of the game. With due respect, I could not disagree more. Those few minutes did not turn the tide or have an appreciable impact on the game.
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Post by dungeon ball on Dec 21, 2014 22:33:00 GMT -5
Just watched the last ten minutes on DVR because I had to get on the road yesterday.
Copeland was very out of position on at least 2 of those three's. Bowen was on another one (but may have been a miss), Peak on another, and Tre on another. In years past, our man D is SO GOOD about switching that it's hard for me to understand how they all know who to pick up. So far not the case this year.
And yes, the way this game was officiated is what makes watching college basketball so tough sometimes.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 21, 2014 23:34:45 GMT -5
With regard to my Hayes comment, I stand by what I said: the stretch of awfulness began when Hayes entered the game. I'm not saying that he was the reason why everything happened, though I do think it hurts when you've got a post player in there who nobody trusts offensively (much the same could be said of Hopkins, though I think the other guys trust him more). Hayes was only in a few minutes - the team continued to be horrible after he left the game, so I am not blaming him. I'm just saying that the wheels began falling off when he came in.
I don't get the Hayes obsession here. It would be nice if he could come in and give us quality backup minutes, but he's very obviously not there yet. I realize some people believe you need game minutes to be ready, but Hayes hasn't made a good argument for them in his limited time. It seems like every season there's one bench player that HoyaTalk champions, for whatever reason. This year, it's Hayes (largely by default, nearly everybody else deserving is already getting playing time).
Believe me, I'd love for Hayes to turn into a solid player. With only him and Govan as centers next year, we'll need him to contribute.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Dec 22, 2014 6:52:21 GMT -5
Or you could say, "the comeback started when we were in deep foul trouble."
That's probably why Hayes was playing and also more likely to affect the game than "The Curse of the Awkward Reserve."
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 22, 2014 10:22:09 GMT -5
With regard to my Hayes comment, I stand by what I said: the stretch of awfulness began when Hayes entered the game. I'm not saying that he was the reason why everything happened, though I do think it hurts when you've got a post player in there who nobody trusts offensively (much the same could be said of Hopkins, though I think the other guys trust him more). Hayes was only in a few minutes - the team continued to be horrible after he left the game, so I am not blaming him. I'm just saying that the wheels began falling off when he came in. I don't get the Hayes obsession here. It would be nice if he could come in and give us quality backup minutes, but he's very obviously not there yet. I realize some people believe you need game minutes to be ready, but Hayes hasn't made a good argument for them in his limited time. It seems like every season there's one bench player that HoyaTalk champions, for whatever reason. This year, it's Hayes (largely by default, nearly everybody else deserving is already getting playing time). Believe me, I'd love for Hayes to turn into a solid player. With only him and Govan as centers next year, we'll need him to contribute. Reserves are reserves for a reason. Some, like a White, essentially get starter minutes and aren't really reserves. Some, like Copeland, we hope get to that point by the end of the year. And some people believe that Bowen could or should be in that mix, which is a fair discussion to have. But Hayes isn't in that mix. He just isn't. Even given Mikael's limitations, we are not as good a team when Hayes is out on the court. And if Hayes is replacing Josh (i.e, Mikael is playing also), that's two bigs with limited offense on the court, which is not a good recipe for success. That's not a shot at him -- he's trying hard out there and he seems to have improved a bit. And I don't have any problem with giving him a minute or two of Mikael's putative minutes at the five in the first half, to get his blood flowing just in case he's needed later or as a means to marginally limit the risk of foul trouble for one of the bigs. But I guess I just don't subscribe to the notion that someone is bound to improve if they are given meaningful time on the court. Sometimes players are what they are. To me, it's far more likely that the team's overall play suffers the more BH plays than it is that he improves meaningfully. And that's particularly true if Coach isn't seeing the improvement on the practice court, which I suspect is the case.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 22, 2014 10:40:12 GMT -5
According to JT3, Hayes is perhaps the most improved player this year. I don't think it is a question of not wanting to play Hayes, but rather looking for the most opportune times to insert him into the line up. Don't forget, Hayes is a seven footer; if he could develop into a defensive and offensive threat he would be playing. Hayes limited playing time is obviously due to the fact that he is not quite there yet. I believe we will see more of him in situations where the game is out of reach in terms of the score. Personally, I think we will have to use him extensively next year.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 22, 2014 11:48:21 GMT -5
Hayes might be the most improved, but we also know he had some sort of injury earlier in the year, and we have no idea how that is impacting his play now. It could very well be that he's not 100% at the moment, I really don't know.
Regardless, at this point Hayes playing = foul trouble for Hopkins and Smith, and that is not a situation we want to be in at any point this season. I still say that's a good argument for not starting Hopkins at PF (or starting him there, but not playing him there much - which does seem to be the case many times), because he really needs to get as many minutes playing center as needed given that's he is the only legitimate backup for Smith at the moment. To be fair to Hopkins, he's been shooting less while playing very good defense, which is exactly what we need. I hope he keeps it up.
I also agree we'll need to play Hayes next year out of necessity, unless we pick up a last-minute 2015 center (unlikely) or a 5th year senior (who knows). Still, only having Govan and Hayes is pretty thin at center, but no more thin than we we've been other recent seasons.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 22, 2014 13:46:15 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is calling for Hayes to start; the question is whether or not he can play a few minutes here and there to prevent/ deal with foul trouble or give Smith or Hopkins a break once in a while. I guess only time will tell. Personally, I am fine with some awkward minutes or learning moments once in a while as opposed to not having a true viable backup center. There will be moments when we need him to play some decent minutes.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 22, 2014 14:16:58 GMT -5
I think the issue is not that Hayes has to play, so much as that at some point this year, JT3 is going to have to play him at center or play one of Copeland/White/Bowen/Trawick/DSR at center, because Smith and Hopkins are both too foul prone to assume that there won't be a game or two where they both foul out (or Hopkins fouls out early and Smith needs a break) and Caprio's not around to serve as our third center anymore
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 22, 2014 14:47:53 GMT -5
With regard to my Hayes comment, I stand by what I said: the stretch of awfulness began when Hayes entered the game. I'm not saying that he was the reason why everything happened, though I do think it hurts when you've got a post player in there who nobody trusts offensively (much the same could be said of Hopkins, though I think the other guys trust him more). Hayes was only in a few minutes - the team continued to be horrible after he left the game, so I am not blaming him. I'm just saying that the wheels began falling off when he came in. I don't get the Hayes obsession here. It would be nice if he could come in and give us quality backup minutes, but he's very obviously not there yet. I realize some people believe you need game minutes to be ready, but Hayes hasn't made a good argument for them in his limited time. It seems like every season there's one bench player that HoyaTalk champions, for whatever reason. This year, it's Hayes (largely by default, nearly everybody else deserving is already getting playing time). Believe me, I'd love for Hayes to turn into a solid player. With only him and Govan as centers next year, we'll need him to contribute. The score was 64-52 when Hayes came in @ the 11:58 mark, it was 70-59 when left @ the 9:06 mark G'town still had a 9pt lead(76-67) with 5:09 to go.. Not sure why Hayes was brought up at all in this thread..
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 22, 2014 14:50:08 GMT -5
With regard to my Hayes comment, I stand by what I said: the stretch of awfulness began when Hayes entered the game. I'm not saying that he was the reason why everything happened, though I do think it hurts when you've got a post player in there who nobody trusts offensively (much the same could be said of Hopkins, though I think the other guys trust him more). Hayes was only in a few minutes - the team continued to be horrible after he left the game, so I am not blaming him. I'm just saying that the wheels began falling off when he came in. I don't get the Hayes obsession here. It would be nice if he could come in and give us quality backup minutes, but he's very obviously not there yet. I realize some people believe you need game minutes to be ready, but Hayes hasn't made a good argument for them in his limited time. It seems like every season there's one bench player that HoyaTalk champions, for whatever reason. This year, it's Hayes (largely by default, nearly everybody else deserving is already getting playing time). Believe me, I'd love for Hayes to turn into a solid player. With only him and Govan as centers next year, we'll need him to contribute. The score was 64-52 when Hayes came in @ the 11:58 mark, it was 70-59 when left @ the 9:06 mark G'town still had a 9pt lead(76-67) with 5:09 to go.. Not sure why Hayes was brought up at all in this thread.. You have to bring up facts??
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Dec 22, 2014 14:58:05 GMT -5
I think the issue is not that Hayes has to play, so much as that at some point this year, JT3 is going to have to play him at center or play one of Copeland/White/Bowen/Trawick/DSR at center, because Smith and Hopkins are both too foul prone to assume that there won't be a game or two where they both foul out (or Hopkins fouls out early and Smith needs a break) and Caprio's not around to serve as our third center anymore It reminds me of the football coach who is forced to play the back-up QB, and then thinks that is an acceptable excuse for losing. The back-up QB has to be ready to go, IMHO. If that means finding him some meaningful snaps so that he is ready, so be it.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 22, 2014 15:11:48 GMT -5
For the last time, I am not blaming Hayes for our team losing its lead. In my opinion, the team started playing worse when he came in - just because the team only lost 2 points from their lead in that period doesn't mean they played well. And, clearly, the wheels came off significantly more after he left the game. I've said that above. I never blamed Hayes for what happened, and I've stated that at least twice.
As far as why Hayes is brought up, I was making a real game observation, contrary to those who are constantly beating a dead horse about his playing time.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 22, 2014 15:22:36 GMT -5
I think the issue is not that Hayes has to play, so much as that at some point this year, JT3 is going to have to play him at center or play one of Copeland/White/Bowen/Trawick/DSR at center, because Smith and Hopkins are both too foul prone to assume that there won't be a game or two where they both foul out (or Hopkins fouls out early and Smith needs a break) and Caprio's not around to serve as our third center anymore The most minutes Hayes has played in his career are vs.: 2/27/14 @marquette - 11 mins; 3/8/14 @ #6 Villanova - 6 mins; and 3/24/14 @ #1 Florida State - 13 mins. That last game was his best and against a very tall FSU. In each of those games, like you say, JT3 had to play him. As we can see, those were tough games away from D.C. in a historically tough venue for us (Marquette), vs. a highly ranked opponent (Villanova) and on the other team's home court in the NIT (FSU). For those of you who do not think game preparation is that important vs. practice preparation, I'm sure you can understand how not playing more than 3 minutes in garbage time for a whole season and then be thrown into the fire of a very important and difficult game is not ideal or the preferred route, nevermind the preparation/development of a player who will be very important or very needed next season. I don't want to speak (type) for someone else, but that's why I want to see Hayes play for 5 minutes or more and not in garbage time with the other end-of-the-bench players. If JT3 "has to play him" versus the most difficult opponents, at the worst venues and in March tournaments, then JT3 should prepare himself and Hayes for it by playing him in other games, instead of counting on the refs at away venues not to call fouls on Josh and Hops. That is, if he's not hurt or recovering from the injury that required the boot. Also, as someone else pointed out, some of the benefits include Josh and Hops not picking up more fouls and being available for the rest of the game. But, the end of the OCC is here versus Indiana, and there is no more time for preparation. That ship has sailed. All that is left for preparation is any BE blow-out, and it's looking like like it's going to be a tougher BE schedule than anticipated. Throw him into the fire! Give him his 5+ minutes.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 22, 2014 16:14:56 GMT -5
For the last time, I am not blaming Hayes for our team losing its lead. In my opinion, the team started playing worse when he came in - just because the team only lost 2 points from their lead in that period doesn't mean they played well. And, clearly, the wheels came off significantly more after he left the game. I've said that above. I never blamed Hayes for what happened, and I've stated that at least twice. As far as why Hayes is brought up, I was making a real game observation, contrary to those who are constantly beating a dead horse about his playing time. As Giga noted in an earlier post you could've just stated "the teams awfulness began when Smith picked up his fourth foul" which is a reasonable observation but instead you took a shot at Hayes.. To your 2nd point.. Hayes was brought up a lot last year because the front-court, Moses in particular was terrible.. The fact that JT3 allowed Moses to spend his last year in Nebraska speaks volumes to me.. Besides the Towson game this year when have any of us pro-Hayes guys complained about his lack of PT? In blowout games I'd like to see the back ups get some run, what's wrong with that? Don't make it seem as if he's a topic after every game cause it's not accurate and if you didn't bring him up in this thread we wouldn't be discussing him now..
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TC
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Post by TC on Dec 22, 2014 16:20:09 GMT -5
According to JT3, Hayes is perhaps the most improved player this year. I don't think it is a question of not wanting to play Hayes, but rather looking for the most opportune times to insert him into the line up. Saying he's "most improved" doesn't say he's good enough to crack the rotation. It just means he's gotten better.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Dec 22, 2014 16:23:43 GMT -5
For the last time, I am not blaming Hayes for our team losing its lead. In my opinion, the team started playing worse when he came in - just because the team only lost 2 points from their lead in that period doesn't mean they played well. And, clearly, the wheels came off significantly more after he left the game. I've said that above. I never blamed Hayes for what happened, and I've stated that at least twice. As far as why Hayes is brought up, I was making a real game observation, contrary to those who are constantly beating a dead horse about his playing time. As Giga noted in an earlier post you could've just stated "the teams awfulness began when Smith picked up his fourth foul" which is a reasonable observation but instead you took a shot at Hayes.. To your 2nd point.. Hayes was brought up a lot last year because the front-court, Moses in particular was terrible.. The fact that JT3 allowed Moses to spend his last year in Nebraska speaks volumes to me.. Besides the Towson game this year when have any of us pro-Hayes guys complained about his lack of PT? In blowout games I'd like to see the back ups get some run, what's wrong with that? Don't make it seem as if he's a topic after every game cause it's not accurate and if you didn't bring him up in this thread we wouldn't be discussing him now.. To be fair, if Hayes were more ready to contribute no one would be saying "the teams awfulness began when Smith picked up his fourth foul" because there wouldn't be as significant a dropoff.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 22, 2014 16:39:08 GMT -5
As Giga noted in an earlier post you could've just stated "the teams awfulness began when Smith picked up his fourth foul" which is a reasonable observation but instead you took a shot at Hayes.. To your 2nd point.. Hayes was brought up a lot last year because the front-court, Moses in particular was terrible.. The fact that JT3 allowed Moses to spend his last year in Nebraska speaks volumes to me.. Besides the Towson game this year when have any of us pro-Hayes guys complained about his lack of PT? In blowout games I'd like to see the back ups get some run, what's wrong with that? Don't make it seem as if he's a topic after every game cause it's not accurate and if you didn't bring him up in this thread we wouldn't be discussing him now.. To be fair, if Hayes were more ready to contribute no one would be saying "the teams awfulness began when Smith picked up his fourth foul" because there wouldn't be as significant a dropoff. This isn't true imo Rock.. AB, Hop& Jabril get blamed for the teams poor play a lot and we all know they're contributors to the team..
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 22, 2014 16:58:29 GMT -5
To be fair, if Hayes were more ready to contribute no one would be saying "the teams awfulness began when Smith picked up his fourth foul" because there wouldn't be as significant a dropoff. This isn't true imo Rock.. AB, Hop& Jabril get blamed for the teams poor play a lot and we all know they're contributors to the team.. Plus, the numbers above showed that perception was not reality; there wasn't a drop-off during his 3 minutes of play and JT3 was able to have Josh and Hops available at the end of the game.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Dec 22, 2014 17:07:35 GMT -5
Well, according to Lee Atwater, perception is reality. Let's just agree that this is all in the eyes of the beholder, each with our individual biases.
I just took a gander at the individual average minutes-played numbers for all Big East Conference teams. Using the ten-minutes played-per-game benchmark to establish that a player is part of a team's rotation, here are the rotation sizes for each school:
6 St. John's 7 Providence 8 Butler, DePaul, Marquette, Seton Hall, Villanova 9 Creighton, Georgetown, Xavier
As I've noted before, carving out more minutes for players not within the rotation entails taking minutes away from rotation players. The proverbial pie is only so big. You can't increase the size of the pie to give everyone a bigger slice.
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