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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 22, 2015 23:35:28 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 23, 2015 0:16:01 GMT -5
"Please make a dispassionate review of these facts before leaping to judgement" 1) For all your moaning about how the University was tougher in your days, you still can't spell. 2) That dispassionate review was already done by a coroner, who called it a homicide. Unless they're in on some conspiracy. "Eric Holder's Justice Department has determined there is no case for civil charges to be brought against Ferguson's Darren Wilson, and while the two cases involve markedly different facts and circumstances, it might temper our judgements to recall how many now inveighing against the police in the Garner case were also baying for the blood of Wilson." 3) Unlike your esteemed bosom buddy, Richard Coleman (BA '57, JD '60), you very clearly did not attend law school, or you would know that not levying civil charges has nothing to do with a grand jury no billing Wilson. 4) Once again you cannot spell. I don't think you know what homicide means (at least in this context), or what the role of an ME/coroner is.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 23, 2015 0:19:29 GMT -5
"Please make a dispassionate review of these facts before leaping to judgement" 1) For all your moaning about how the University was tougher in your days, you still can't spell. 2) That dispassionate review was already done by a coroner, who called it a homicide. Unless they're in on some conspiracy. "Eric Holder's Justice Department has determined there is no case for civil charges to be brought against Ferguson's Darren Wilson, and while the two cases involve markedly different facts and circumstances, it might temper our judgements to recall how many now inveighing against the police in the Garner case were also baying for the blood of Wilson." 3) Unlike your esteemed bosom buddy, Richard Coleman (BA '57, JD '60), you very clearly did not attend law school, or you would know that not levying civil charges has nothing to do with a grand jury no billing Wilson. 4) Once again you cannot spell. I don't think you know what homicide means (at least in this context), or what the role of an ME/coroner is. Thanks buddy, but I've got it. What one of the two old men from the Muppet Show was implying was that Garner's health was at fault for his death. It played a role, but it was clearly caused by conduct, hence the homicide determination. This wasn't something that he was going to keel over and die from that day had he been startled by a loud noise or hugged too hard by a friend. This is saying nothing of the concept of causation in civil liability, where liability can be as far removed as the incident in Palsgraf.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 24, 2015 12:43:43 GMT -5
Please keep telling me how good cops are the most eager to get rid of bad cops. Or is it most eager to get rid of a cop that would dare defend someone against a bad cop? Buffalo News StoryYes, I know not all, or even most cops are abusive, but as I've mentioned before in these threads, there's clear evidence that police are more interested in protecting their own than weeding out the people who commit crimes while in uniform. One more data point here. Until that changes, I have no idea why police officers should expect the trust of the populace.
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pertinax
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Post by pertinax on Jan 25, 2015 20:25:53 GMT -5
“If we accept that the mother can kill her own child for convenience, what moral ground is left?” Majority Republicans should ban Obama from allowing partial-birth abortions
Author By Judi McLeod January 25, 2015 Comments| Print friendly | Subscribe | Email Us |
Reminder: Post links to articles, not the articles themselves. --Admin
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Jan 26, 2015 10:26:09 GMT -5
ALL ABORTION LECTURES, ALL THE TIME!!!!!!
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 26, 2015 13:19:37 GMT -5
“If we accept that the mother can kill her own child for convenience, what moral ground is left?” Majority Republicans should ban Obama from allowing partial-birth abortions Author By Judi McLeod January 25, 2015 Comments| Print friendly | Subscribe | Email Us | Reminder: Post links to articles, not the articles themselves. --Admin Looks like grandpa learned how to cut and paste.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 26, 2015 15:51:10 GMT -5
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 26, 2015 16:06:01 GMT -5
Looks like grandpa learned how to cut and paste. Now if only he could read and assess what is and is not relevant to the topic being discussed.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 26, 2015 20:08:17 GMT -5
“If we accept that the mother can kill her own child for convenience, what moral ground is left?” Majority Republicans should ban Obama from allowing partial-birth abortions Author By Judi McLeod January 25, 2015 Comments| Print friendly | Subscribe | Email Us | Reminder: Post links to articles, not the articles themselves. --Admin For some reason, the moderators refuse to enforce the rules of the board with respect to Pertinax. Rule #2 clearly states: "Do not post any copyrighted articles, regardless of source, in its entirety. It is OK to use a quote from a daily newspaper, magazine, or recruiting service, but for more than one paragraph of information, a link to the site will suffice." Based on the personal posts of DFW in this thread and others, I think there's some selective prosecution going on here, for whatever reason.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 13, 2015 10:17:01 GMT -5
FBI Director Jim Comey gave a speech at GU on the issue of policing and racism and police bias. The report linked below makes it sound open and honest about the issues. Excerpts:He started by acknowledging that law enforcement had a troubled legacy when it came to race. “All of us in law enforcement must be honest enough to acknowledge that much of our history is not pretty,” he said. “At many points in American history, law enforcement enforced the status quo, a status quo that was often brutally unfair to disfavored groups.”
Speaking in personal terms, Mr. Comey described how most Americans had initially viewed Irish immigrants like his ancestors “as drunks, ruffians and criminals. Law enforcement’s biased view of the Irish lives on in the nickname we still use for the vehicle that transports groups of prisoners; it is, after all, the ‘Paddy wagon,’ ” he said. But he said that what the Irish had gone through was nothing compared with what blacks had faced.
Comey said police officers of all races viewed black and white men differently...and that some officers scrutinize African-Americans more closely using a mental shortcut that “becomes almost irresistible and maybe even rational by some lights” because black men are arrested at much higher rates than white men. We need “to design systems and processes to overcome that very human part of us all. Although the research may be unsettling, what we do next is what matters most."
Ronald E. Teachman, the police chief in South Bend, Ind., said it would be far easier for him to continue the discussion in Indiana now that Mr. Comey had done so in such a public manner. “It helps me move the conversation forward when the F.B.I. director speaks so boldly,” he said.
Mr. Comey concluded by quoting Dr. King, who said, “We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we will all perish together as fools.”
“We all have work to do — hard work to do, challenging work — and it will take time,” Mr. Comey said. “We all need to talk, and we all need to listen, not just about easy things, but about hard things, too. Relationships are hard. Relationships require work. So let’s begin. It is time to start seeing one another for who and what we really are.”www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/us/politics/fbi-director-comey-speaks-frankly-about-police-view-of-blacks.html?rref=homepage&module=Ribbon&version=origin®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Home%20Page&pgtype=article&_r=0
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 2, 2015 23:19:36 GMT -5
For those who think we need to do nothing about police shootings/abuse, please answer the question in this article: why is the entire Cleveland police force defending the police's actions in the Tamir Rice case? How can anyone trust a police force who thinks the police officers' actions were right? Where are the good cops here?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Mar 3, 2015 10:01:27 GMT -5
For the link-averse (in part):
"....Police had received reports that someone was holding a gun in a public park, but the gun was fake, and the "someone" was a kid. Within seconds, an officer fires his weapon, fatally wounding Rice. The cops refuse to give him aid, and when his teenage sister arrives, they tackle her. Paramedics eventually arrive, and they take Rice to a nearby hospital, where he dies.
Both officers have checkered records. The shooter, Timothy Loehmann, was a washout. Superiors at a previous posting described him as “unable to follow basic functions as instructed” and visibly “distracted” during weapons training. “Individually,” wrote his former boss, “these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.” The driver, patrolman Frank Garmback, was just as ill-equipped, albeit in a more typical way. In 2010, a resident sued him for “excessive force” after he choked her in her driveway. (She had called the police for help.) The city settled last year for $100,000.
These men never should have been on the street, where in their incompetence they’ve made life harder for other, better police officers. Yet both the city and the police union are behind them...."
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 3, 2015 11:13:48 GMT -5
For those who think we need to do nothing about police shootings/abuse, please answer the question in this article: why is the entire Cleveland police force defending the police's actions in the Tamir Rice case? How can anyone trust a police force who thinks the police officers' actions were right? Where are the good cops here? Mr. Strawman asks: who is saying we need to do nothing?
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Post by strummer8526 on Mar 3, 2015 12:50:37 GMT -5
For the link-averse (in part): ".... Police had received reports that someone was holding a gun in a public park, but the gun was fake, and the "someone" was a kid. Within seconds, an officer fires his weapon, fatally wounding Rice. The cops refuse to give him aid, and when his teenage sister arrives, they tackle her. Paramedics eventually arrive, and they take Rice to a nearby hospital, where he dies. Both officers have checkered records. The shooter, Timothy Loehmann, was a washout. Superiors at a previous posting described him as “unable to follow basic functions as instructed” and visibly “distracted” during weapons training. “Individually,” wrote his former boss, “these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.” The driver, patrolman Frank Garmback, was just as ill-equipped, albeit in a more typical way. In 2010, a resident sued him for “excessive force” after he choked her in her driveway. (She had called the police for help.) The city settled last year for $100,000. These men never should have been on the street, where in their incompetence they’ve made life harder for other, better police officers. Yet both the city and the police union are behind them...." Has it been determined yet how much of that information made it to the responding officers? Obviously if some of it didn't, then that's a communication failure and a problem in need of fixing. It's just a very different problem than the one that you are discussing.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 3, 2015 14:23:30 GMT -5
For those who think we need to do nothing about police shootings/abuse, please answer the question in this article: why is the entire Cleveland police force defending the police's actions in the Tamir Rice case? How can anyone trust a police force who thinks the police officers' actions were right? Where are the good cops here? Mr. Strawman asks: who is saying we need to do nothing? There are a number of posters who do not believe we should either change the process for oversight of the police (grand jury, etc) or change current police policies and procedures. That the fact that the killers of Tamir Rice and Eric Garner are going to go free is perfectly fine. And that the same systematic issues will continue.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 3, 2015 14:30:51 GMT -5
For the link-averse (in part): ".... Police had received reports that someone was holding a gun in a public park, but the gun was fake, and the "someone" was a kid. Within seconds, an officer fires his weapon, fatally wounding Rice. The cops refuse to give him aid, and when his teenage sister arrives, they tackle her. Paramedics eventually arrive, and they take Rice to a nearby hospital, where he dies. Both officers have checkered records. The shooter, Timothy Loehmann, was a washout. Superiors at a previous posting described him as “unable to follow basic functions as instructed” and visibly “distracted” during weapons training. “Individually,” wrote his former boss, “these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.” The driver, patrolman Frank Garmback, was just as ill-equipped, albeit in a more typical way. In 2010, a resident sued him for “excessive force” after he choked her in her driveway. (She had called the police for help.) The city settled last year for $100,000. These men never should have been on the street, where in their incompetence they’ve made life harder for other, better police officers. Yet both the city and the police union are behind them...." Has it been determined yet how much of that information made it to the responding officers? Obviously if some of it didn't, then that's a communication failure and a problem in need of fixing. It's just a very different problem than the one that you are discussing. You can't have possibly watched the video. Instead of pulling up at a safe distance, gathering cover behind their car, identifying themselves as police and issuing clear instructions, they raced up to him at an unsafe distance, jumped out of the car and immediately shot him to death. Then they refused to administer any kind of care and kept his sister from doing so (much like the officers did not help Eric Garner while waiting for paramedics). The paramedics came too late. Don't tell me they felt at risk; if they are too scared to approach as cops should approach, they simply shouldn't be cops. It baffles me that most of the world is undisturbed by the fact that the police shot a 12 year old playing with a legal toy in the park, refused to try to help him as he was dying, and the police department and the union are claiming the fault is 100% in the hands of the 12 year old child. We don't believe a child can choose to ditch school or smoke a cigarette with enough knowledge, but they should know better than to play with toys? Part of my post was for Talos, who keeps insisting that most cops are good cops. (I think that was you). I know what you mean and agree with you in that sense -- most cops don't act reckless and kill this child. But the fact that the police and the union are defending the killers' actions makes them bad cops in my mind. They are willfully letting murderers go free and continuing to perpetrate the same systems that will encourage this to occur over and over and over. I'm sure a small few have spoken up, but obviously not enough. That is its own type of cowardice and failing to do something about it is its own type of being a bad cop.
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Post by strummer8526 on Mar 3, 2015 14:51:32 GMT -5
Has it been determined yet how much of that information made it to the responding officers? Obviously if some of it didn't, then that's a communication failure and a problem in need of fixing. It's just a very different problem than the one that you are discussing. You can't have possibly watched the video. Instead of pulling up at a safe distance, gathering cover behind their car, identifying themselves as police and issuing clear instructions, they raced up to him at an unsafe distance, jumped out of the car and immediately shot him to death. Then they refused to administer any kind of care and kept his sister from doing so (much like the officers did not help Eric Garner while waiting for paramedics). The paramedics came too late. Don't tell me they felt at risk; if they are too scared to approach as cops should approach, they simply shouldn't be cops. It baffles me that most of the world is undisturbed by the fact that the police shot a 12 year old playing with a legal toy in the park, refused to try to help him as he was dying, and the police department and the union are claiming the fault is 100% in the hands of the 12 year old child. We don't believe a child can choose to ditch school or smoke a cigarette with enough knowledge, but they should know better than to play with toys? Part of my post was for Talos, who keeps insisting that most cops are good cops. (I think that was you). I know what you mean and agree with you in that sense -- most cops don't act reckless and kill this child. But the fact that the police and the union are defending the killers' actions makes them bad cops in my mind. They are willfully letting murderers go free and continuing to perpetrate the same systems that will encourage this to occur over and over and over. I'm sure a small few have spoken up, but obviously not enough. That is its own type of cowardice and failing to do something about it is its own type of being a bad cop. I have seen the video and I'm not opining on the larger issues. I'm just asking whether the officers knew the circumstances that you yourself cite as so important to understanding what happened. If Tamir had been a 30-year-old man with a real gun menacing children in the park, we would look at the way the officers sped up in front of him very differently, and I think many would view it as heroic.* So I ask again, did the officers know they were approaching a 12-year-old who witnesses thought was holding only a toy rather than a real gun? *Even if he was an armed 30-year-old, I'm still not saying how they approached it was right as a matter of ideal policies an procedures. But when it comes to figuring out where these individual officers fall on the spectrum between wholly justified and insane murderers, clear their mental states (and hence their knowledge) matter a great deal.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Mar 3, 2015 15:41:40 GMT -5
For the link-averse (in part): ".... Police had received reports that someone was holding a gun in a public park, but the gun was fake, and the "someone" was a kid. Within seconds, an officer fires his weapon, fatally wounding Rice. The cops refuse to give him aid, and when his teenage sister arrives, they tackle her. Paramedics eventually arrive, and they take Rice to a nearby hospital, where he dies. Both officers have checkered records. The shooter, Timothy Loehmann, was a washout. Superiors at a previous posting described him as “unable to follow basic functions as instructed” and visibly “distracted” during weapons training. “Individually,” wrote his former boss, “these events would not be considered major situations, but when taken together they show a pattern of a lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.” The driver, patrolman Frank Garmback, was just as ill-equipped, albeit in a more typical way. In 2010, a resident sued him for “excessive force” after he choked her in her driveway. (She had called the police for help.) The city settled last year for $100,000. These men never should have been on the street, where in their incompetence they’ve made life harder for other, better police officers. Yet both the city and the police union are behind them...." Has it been determined yet how much of that information made it to the responding officers? Obviously if some of it didn't, then that's a communication failure and a problem in need of fixing. It's just a very different problem than the one that you are discussing. Strange to hone in on that question in light of all known facts. The salient fact about the 12 year old and the fake gun is that there is no way the cops rightfully thought they were in danger if they were doing their jobs...as there was no real gun. Surely every police officer must know, as you surely do, that information called into 911 is notoriously unreliable. You see that's where actual police work comes in, somewhere between the dispatch and the execution. You can't just hear "gun" and act like you're storming Omaha beach and everyone in front of you is SS. I could go out there and crap my pants and just murder a kid but thankfully I'm not a trained policeman and will not be asked to do so. But likewise if I did, I wouldn't expect the full protection of the law for so doing even my actions were identical to the men who supposedly DO have the right training. Even if the dispatcher was told that there was a grown man holding a real gun and she relayed that to the police they STILL MUST DO THEIR JOBS AS COPS and approach with care, not blast away because they were petrified for their own lives then callously watch the kid die safe in the knowledge that apparently the bar for being a good cop in Cleveland is subterranean. I'm stunned still how reflexively the reactionary pro-police supporters are about two things at the same time; 1. Police work is difficult and dangerous and they are brave on our behalf so they can't be held accountable! 2. Dammit of course he blasted away at the drop of a dime! He was crapping his pants in fear for his life! Well which is it? This is a case for which there really can't be any debate at all among reasonably people. These were two cops, one with a bad record and the other with a horrible record, who killed instantly and then acted like gangsters in the aftermath while the victim on their "bravery" bled out in front of his sister, another child. If the police supporters and the force itself and the unions can't see fit to condemn even this atrocity, how are we to believe they are arguing in anything but bad faith?
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 3, 2015 16:03:25 GMT -5
You can't have possibly watched the video. Instead of pulling up at a safe distance, gathering cover behind their car, identifying themselves as police and issuing clear instructions, they raced up to him at an unsafe distance, jumped out of the car and immediately shot him to death. Then they refused to administer any kind of care and kept his sister from doing so (much like the officers did not help Eric Garner while waiting for paramedics). The paramedics came too late. Don't tell me they felt at risk; if they are too scared to approach as cops should approach, they simply shouldn't be cops. It baffles me that most of the world is undisturbed by the fact that the police shot a 12 year old playing with a legal toy in the park, refused to try to help him as he was dying, and the police department and the union are claiming the fault is 100% in the hands of the 12 year old child. We don't believe a child can choose to ditch school or smoke a cigarette with enough knowledge, but they should know better than to play with toys? Part of my post was for Talos, who keeps insisting that most cops are good cops. (I think that was you). I know what you mean and agree with you in that sense -- most cops don't act reckless and kill this child. But the fact that the police and the union are defending the killers' actions makes them bad cops in my mind. They are willfully letting murderers go free and continuing to perpetrate the same systems that will encourage this to occur over and over and over. I'm sure a small few have spoken up, but obviously not enough. That is its own type of cowardice and failing to do something about it is its own type of being a bad cop. I have seen the video and I'm not opining on the larger issues. I'm just asking whether the officers knew the circumstances that you yourself cite as so important to understanding what happened. If Tamir had been a 30-year-old man with a real gun menacing children in the park, we would look at the way the officers sped up in front of him very differently, and I think many would view it as heroic.* So I ask again, did the officers know they were approaching a 12-year-old who witnesses thought was holding only a toy rather than a real gun? *Even if he was an armed 30-year-old, I'm still not saying how they approached it was right as a matter of ideal policies an procedures. But when it comes to figuring out where these individual officers fall on the spectrum between wholly justified and insane murderers, clear their mental states (and hence their knowledge) matter a great deal. This just seems tone deaf to me. The child was murdered in less than 2 seconds. He had no chance to comply. Whether the officers knew he was a child or not, something is wrong when someone in this circumstance, child or adult, ends up dead. If that's the way they teach policing in Cleveland, the teachers need to be fired. Ohio is an open carry state. Residents can openly carry a firearm without a permit or a license, so they should not have been messing with him anyway if they thought he was an adult. Yet and still, the police did not even attempt to assess the situation. Just came out with guns blazing. They f&$ked up big time, another black male is dead, and the City administration and the police blame the 12 yr old murdered child for his own death. Where are the elected officials and police hierarchy who should be clamoring for an end to abuse of citizens? Silent, hiding behind a B.S. report which the entire nation sees through. If only they could see themselves as others see them...
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