quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
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Post by quickplay on Jan 12, 2015 14:30:05 GMT -5
"All through now?"
How about you respond to the question?
Did he deserve to be killed for pushing the officer's hands away? Would you have the same attitude if that was someone in your family?
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 12, 2015 17:51:30 GMT -5
Pertinax, what's the Catholic Church's stance on capital punishment. How about capital punishment for pushing a cop's hands away, something I think most people would do out of reflex?
WWJD? Choke out the sonuvabitch for showing a lack of respect?
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SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 13, 2015 9:52:01 GMT -5
40% of NYC's "Resisting arrest" charges are made by 5% of NYPD officers. What does that tell us? Most cops know how to handle most situations without escalating to resisting arrest charges. It would be interesting to see the relevant history of the cop involved with Garner. And here's a story about the NYPD's history with the Choke Hold, which was outlawed in 1993. ExcerptOn Monday, the newly created city inspector general for the Police Department said in its first report that in several cases reviewed, police officers went to the chokehold as a “first act of physical force” when facing “mere verbal confrontation.”By 1993, though, the New York Police Department had joined departments in other large cities by banning the chokehold with an order that amounted to, in the words of former Chief of Department John F. Timoney: “Stay the hell away from the neck.” www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/nyregion/police-keep-using-chokeholds-despite-bans-and-scrutiny.html?hpw&rref=nyregion&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0Personally, I really don't see any reasonable way to explain how the Police officer involved was not indicted. It should have been up to a jury to determine his guilt/innocence and possible punishment. The problem in my view is asking the exact same NYC DAs and ADAs who work with the cops on a daily basis to prosecute criminals to suddenly turn on a dime and now prosecute their "teammates". When a cop is accused of a serious crime, he/she should be prosecuted by someone independent of the daily cop/DA interactions.
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pertinax
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by pertinax on Jan 18, 2015 20:36:50 GMT -5
"How about" you respond to the visible facts, the evidence! I cite the fact that the film indeed shows poor Garner pushing away the cop's hands, but does anyone here's response have anything to say about that? Hardly! All we get is the usual ignorant jibes that are thrown when the thrower has nothing else to throw, such as a fact. You're really college grads posting here? GU students? God help the university and America.
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
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Post by quickplay on Jan 19, 2015 9:46:03 GMT -5
"How about" you respond to the visible facts, the evidence! I cite the fact that the film indeed shows poor Garner pushing away the cop's hands, but does anyone here's response have anything to say about that? Hardly! All we get is the usual ignorant jibes that are thrown when the thrower has nothing else to throw, such as a fact. You're really college grads posting here? GU students? God help the university and America. But what is YOUR point? You're breaking your arms patting yourself on the back but all you've done is lob a loaded 'fact' as if it makes a point. This is a discussion about appropriate use of force. I'm assuming that most people who are discussing it have watched the video. For you to come in and point out a single thing that happened in the video, as if that alone is making a point, is kind of a joke. To be so blatantly insulting and obnoxious on top of it actually just makes me a little embarrassed for you. So yes, we see the 'visible facts' that he was pushing the cop's hands away. What am I supposed to respond to about that? He is clearly no threat to the officers, and the choke hold happens when one officer comes up from behind and starts choking him, to no resistance from Garner. So now that we've addressed your...ability to see something from a video that everyone is already aware of, I ask again, what is your point? Are you saying that Garner being choked and killed by the police shouldn't bother people as much because he pushed the officer's hands away originally? That he deserved it? That it's a grey area? Because as far as I can tell the only person being ignorant here is you, and the only question is whether you're feigning it or if this really is your highest level critical thinking.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 19, 2015 10:42:14 GMT -5
He's a troll, quickplay.
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pertinax
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 131
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Post by pertinax on Jan 19, 2015 11:08:33 GMT -5
My point, and my ONLY, point, was that when a poster denied Garner had resisted arrest, the video shows that he did, that and nothing more, a fact that your delusional diatribes make no effort to contradict but instead spin fantasies reminiscent of the flight of the fabled Gooney Bird that flies around in ever decreasing concentric circles until it finally disappears up its own a--hole.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,389
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 19, 2015 11:17:37 GMT -5
My point, and my ONLY, point, was that when a poster denied Garner had resisted arrest, the video shows that he did, that and nothing more, a fact that your delusional diatribes make no effort to contradict but instead spin fantasies reminiscent of the flight of the fabled Gooney Bird that flies around in ever decreasing concentric circles until it finally disappears up its own a--hole. You can't hide behind that BS post. Your ONLY point is irrelevant to the discussion.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 19, 2015 19:12:51 GMT -5
"How about" you respond to the visible facts, the evidence! I cite the fact that the film indeed shows poor Garner pushing away the cop's hands, but does anyone here's response have anything to say about that? Hardly! All we get is the usual ignorant jibes that are thrown when the thrower has nothing else to throw, such as a fact. You're really college grads posting here? GU students? God help the university and America. This is not a rebuttal, but rather a non-sequitor (also, to rebut something, there would have to be a point): You are truly an insufferable poster who makes almost every thread in which you participate much worse.
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
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Post by quickplay on Jan 19, 2015 19:46:25 GMT -5
All I'll say is at least I'm not intellectually disingenuous.
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
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Post by kchoya on Jan 20, 2015 0:11:38 GMT -5
"How about" you respond to the visible facts, the evidence! I cite the fact that the film indeed shows poor Garner pushing away the cop's hands, but does anyone here's response have anything to say about that? Hardly! All we get is the usual ignorant jibes that are thrown when the thrower has nothing else to throw, such as a fact. You're really college grads posting here? GU students? God help the university and America. You are the type of Georgetown grad (I assume you're a Georgetown grad) that the rest of us hate, those outside the GU community loathe, and who give Georgetown a bad rep. We're all well-educated, intelligent people on here. You don't need to throw in references to the Gooney Bird or the Oxbow Incident in an effort to win some internet pseudo-intellectual d!ck measuring contest. I'm surprised you haven't made a reference to a logic class you took on the Hilltop. The only other thing missing is to personally sign each post (I'm looking at you Richard M. Coleman).
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pertinax
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 131
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Post by pertinax on Jan 21, 2015 16:57:27 GMT -5
Wit regard to a parallel issue on which I endured similar guff, today's headline in the NY Times:
"JUSTICE DEPARTMENT MOVING TO CLEAR FERGUSON OFFICER OF CIVIL RIGHTS CHARGES"
Although it's meaningless, I know: Eric Holder is a troll.
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pertinax
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 131
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Post by pertinax on Jan 22, 2015 10:34:15 GMT -5
Garner's death is tragic and that selling "loosies" is a crime is an absurdity. But are the police, who probably didn't want to be there and were summoned by local merchants, responsible? That their actions led to his death is self-evident. But are those actions culpable? Facts to consider when answering that question include the following: (1) Garner, who is six-foot three or four and weighed about 300 pounds, and those he did it in what I see a non-threatening, gentle way, he was resisting arrest. (2) He was then taken taken by one of the policemen. The fact is, however, that this was not a chokehold, but a quick method of taking down one resisting arrest that is taught in police academies. And immediately thereafter, the hold was released and Garner's face was pressed face down on the ground. (3) Garner did not begin to say "I can't breathe" until AFTER the hold was released. (4) The supervising police officer overseeing -- and condoning -- these actions was black. These are facts. Garner's perilous state of health under these circumstances was unknown to the police, and had it not been for his fragile condition their actions could not conceivably have caused death or even serious injury. Please make a dispassionate review of these facts before leaping to judgement, something done most heinously in the film "The Oxbow Incident" in which a a posse hanged a number of innocent men. In the meantime, Eric Holder's Justice Department has determined there is no case for civil charges to be brought against Ferguson's Darren Wilson, and while the two cases involve markedly different facts and circumstances, it might temper our judgements to recall how many now inveighing against the police in the Garner case were also baying for the blood of Wilson. My modest proposal, therefore, is that while all voices deserve to be heard, wisdom cautions that we all take a breath.
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SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 22, 2015 13:45:38 GMT -5
The fact is, however, that this was not a chokehold
Apparently you need to go back and look at the tape you keep referring to, but this time continue watching - don't stop after you see the innocuous "hand push".
The NYC coroner called it a homicide. Everyone in the world has seen the Chokehold for themselves. The NYC police commissioner told his folks "stay the hell away from the neck" when the chokehold was outlawed years ago. You and anyone can make all the arguments you like, but the arguments that count SHOULD have been made in front of a jury, not whitewashed by a DA of compromised integrity, to a grand jury willing to do his bidding. That is the problem. This case never came to trial, never reached a jury. THAT is inexcusable.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Jan 22, 2015 21:28:49 GMT -5
Garner's death is tragic and that selling "loosies" is a crime is an absurdity. But are the police, who probably didn't want to be there and were summoned by local merchants, responsible? That their actions led to his death is self-evident. But are those actions culpable? Facts to consider when answering that question include the following: (1) Garner, who is six-foot three or four and weighed about 300 pounds, and those he did it in what I see a non-threatening, gentle way, he was resisting arrest. (2) He was then taken taken by one of the policemen. The fact is, however, that this was not a chokehold, but a quick method of taking down one resisting arrest that is taught in police academies. And immediately thereafter, the hold was released and Garner's face was pressed face down on the ground. (3) Garner did not begin to say "I can't breathe" until AFTER the hold was released. (4) The supervising police officer overseeing -- and condoning -- these actions was black. These are facts. Garner's perilous state of health under these circumstances was unknown to the police, and had it not been for his fragile condition their actions could not conceivably have caused death or even serious injury. Please make a dispassionate review of these facts before leaping to judgement, something done most heinously in the film "The Oxbow Incident" in which a a posse hanged a number of innocent men. In the meantime, Eric Holder's Justice Department has determined there is no case for civil charges to be brought against Ferguson's Darren Wilson, and while the two cases involve markedly different facts and circumstances, it might temper our judgements to recall how many now inveighing against the police in the Garner case were also baying for the blood of Wilson. My modest proposal, therefore, is that while all voices deserve to be heard, wisdom cautions that we all take a breath. Do you believe race has played a part in any of the cases where an unarmed African-American male was killed by a Caucasian or other ethnic cop?
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 22, 2015 21:39:56 GMT -5
"Please make a dispassionate review of these facts before leaping to judgement" 1) For all your moaning about how the University was tougher in your days, you still can't spell. 2) That dispassionate review was already done by a coroner, who called it a homicide. Unless they're in on some conspiracy.
"Eric Holder's Justice Department has determined there is no case for civil charges to be brought against Ferguson's Darren Wilson, and while the two cases involve markedly different facts and circumstances, it might temper our judgements to recall how many now inveighing against the police in the Garner case were also baying for the blood of Wilson." 3) Unlike your esteemed bosom buddy, Richard Coleman (BA '57, JD '60), you very clearly did not attend law school, or you would know that not levying civil charges has nothing to do with a grand jury no billing Wilson. 4) Once again you cannot spell.
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
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Post by SaxaCD on Jan 22, 2015 21:55:07 GMT -5
The fact is, however, that this was not a chokeholdApparently you need to go back and look at the tape you keep referring to, but this time continue watching - don't stop after you see the innocuous "hand push". The NYC coroner called it a homicide. Everyone in the world has seen the Chokehold for themselves. The NYC police commissioner told his folks "stay the hell away from the neck" when the chokehold was outlawed years ago. You and anyone can make all the arguments you like, but the arguments that count SHOULD have been made in front of a jury, not whitewashed by a DA of compromised integrity, to a grand jury willing to do his bidding. That is the problem. This case never came to trial, never reached a jury. THAT is inexcusable. It'll be interesting to see what the US AG of comprised integrity will finally end up doing.
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
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Post by SaxaCD on Jan 22, 2015 21:57:42 GMT -5
"Please make a dispassionate review of these facts before leaping to judgement" 1) For all your moaning about how the University was tougher in your days, you still can't spell. 2) That dispassionate review was already done by a coroner, who called it a homicide. Unless they're in on some conspiracy. "Eric Holder's Justice Department has determined there is no case for civil charges to be brought against Ferguson's Darren Wilson, and while the two cases involve markedly different facts and circumstances, it might temper our judgements to recall how many now inveighing against the police in the Garner case were also baying for the blood of Wilson." 3) Unlike your esteemed bosom buddy, Richard Coleman (BA '57, JD '60), you very clearly did not attend law school, or you would know that not levying civil charges has nothing to do with a grand jury no billing Wilson. 4) Once again you cannot spell. I don't see any spelling mistakes there. And I look for those for a living. Hope you're not keying on "judgement," as it is an accepted variant of "judgment" according to all of the dictionaries I own. If I missed another one, mea culpa.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 22, 2015 22:08:49 GMT -5
"Please make a dispassionate review of these facts before leaping to judgement" 1) For all your moaning about how the University was tougher in your days, you still can't spell. 2) That dispassionate review was already done by a coroner, who called it a homicide. Unless they're in on some conspiracy. "Eric Holder's Justice Department has determined there is no case for civil charges to be brought against Ferguson's Darren Wilson, and while the two cases involve markedly different facts and circumstances, it might temper our judgements to recall how many now inveighing against the police in the Garner case were also baying for the blood of Wilson." 3) Unlike your esteemed bosom buddy, Richard Coleman (BA '57, JD '60), you very clearly did not attend law school, or you would know that not levying civil charges has nothing to do with a grand jury no billing Wilson. 4) Once again you cannot spell. I don't see any spelling mistakes there. And I look for those for a living. Hope you're not keying on "judgement," as it is an accepted variant of "judgment" according to all of the dictionaries I own. If I missed another one, mea culpa. grammarist.com/spelling/judgment-judgement/
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
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Post by SaxaCD on Jan 22, 2015 23:32:06 GMT -5
I don't see any spelling mistakes there. And I look for those for a living. Hope you're not keying on "judgement," as it is an accepted variant of "judgment" according to all of the dictionaries I own. If I missed another one, mea culpa. grammarist.com/spelling/judgment-judgement/Yeah I saw that, too. It confirms that the spelling without the "e" is more widely accepted (and that according to that author at least, the other spelling is "generally considered a misspelling), but I own 3 dictionaries and all present it as an acceptable alternate, even if it isn't the standard convention. Harping on that as if it shows a poor education doesn't really work very well -- it's the kind of thing one resorts to obscure the argument, in my view. After reading my own response and the last few posts on this thread, I'll say it before somebody else does... "Only on Hoyatalk..."
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