rockhoya
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B. Hayes
Mar 27, 2015 11:45:31 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 27, 2015 11:45:31 GMT -5
Maybe to get Ike and Paul more experience in smaller lineups? How did that work out versus EWU and Utah? I don't undertand your question?
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Mar 27, 2015 11:49:38 GMT -5
The offseason. Ugh. The horse died long ago but it's the time of year to work on one's swing I guess. You have to really dedicate yourself in the offseason, otherwise you won't be ready for the season. If we don't beat the dead horse now, how are we going to be ready to beat the dead horse during Big East play? Let's be honest--a few minutes of dead horse beating when we are playing cream puffs in December isn't going to make much of a difference if we need to beat the dead horse in February or March. This. You're exactly right. It's not fun but it is the time of the year to put in the work on the fundamentals.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 27, 2015 11:53:55 GMT -5
Let's not forget that Henry himself has stated he did not commit himself to Basketball until his senior year. And let's also recall the kid was Baltimore's Co-POY.... he was far more advanced than Hayes when he arrived at GU. This is a fallacy that is constantly repeated around here. This article, the main source of the story, was written during his junior year. But because Sims had an even stronger senior year, people mix up the timeline. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/22/AR2010122205084.htmlNot a fallacy. That's the "mother talk" article. He says he refocused. He followed the publishing of that article with a 17 minute performance with 2 pts from 2 of 4 FTs, 0 FGs. It was the infamous Tarik Curse, which cursed the featured player of an article written by Tarik to a bad game the day of its publishing or the next game after its publishing. But, talk is talk. On February 2011, Henry was also focusing on his run for GUSA. Then, there's this article the following November, Henry's senior season: www.washingtonpost.com/sports/georgetowns-henry-sims-re-dedicated-himself-in-the-offseason/2011/11/19/gIQAAK4pfN_story.htmlHenry worked his butt off the summer before his senior season and focused like he knew he should have. No way around it and kudos to Henry for doing it.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 27, 2015 11:56:29 GMT -5
How did that work out versus EWU and Utah? I don't undertand your question? Then I didn't understand yours.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 27, 2015 12:17:40 GMT -5
I didn't realize we had the second coming of Bill Russell on our bench the past couple of seasons. JT3 is a horrible coach. He must be fired.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 27, 2015 12:29:00 GMT -5
The offseason. Ugh. The horse died long ago but it's the time of year to work on one's swing I guess. You have to really dedicate yourself in the offseason, otherwise you won't be ready for the season. If we don't beat the dead horse now, how are we going to be ready to beat the dead horse during Big East play? Let's be honest--a few minutes of dead horse beating when we are playing cream puffs in December isn't going to make much of a difference if we need to beat the dead horse in February or March. I think the few really awesome minutes of dead-horse-beating that we are seeing here proves beyond any doubt that we are ready to really beat some seriously good dead horses next season. BTW True story, my latin teacher in high school (Jesuit priest) bet on a horse that dropped dead in the middle of the race. We called him Mortuus Equus (behind his back, of course).
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 27, 2015 12:35:37 GMT -5
In a lot of ways, the treatment of Bradley Hayes reminds me of how Henry Sims was treated. Freshmen year not red-shirted and played limited minutes behind Greg Monroe. Then Sims played minimal minutes and had to sit behind a limited Julian Vaughn during his Sophomore and Junior years until JTIII was forced to use Sims in a major/starting role his Senior year. Go ahead and argue about whether Brad should have played more until now or whether he will play more next year. That's fine. But enough with the Henry Sims comparisons (which are used, as here, as evidence that "Coach doesn't use guys until he has to use them and then lo and behlld they're good. Imagine if he had used them earlier!") Sims played 9 mins per game his freshmen year. Not only wasn't he red-shirted, but he was a meaningful rotational player. He played more minutes that year than Julian Vaughn did!In 09-10 it dipped to 6-7 mpg, but he was behind not only Vaughn (who stole some of his time) but a sophomore lottery pick in Greg Monroe, who also had improved year-over-year more than did Sims. Still, he played 6-7 minutes per game. Not exactly Bradley circa 2014-15 minutes. By his junior year he played 14 mpg. That's almost more per game than Brad played this entire year. That's essentially the same amount that Aaron and Tre played on a per game basis this year. He was a major part of that team. Heck, Vaughn only played 23 mpg that year! So, it wasn't like Henry was buried behind him.And he obviously played a ton his senior year. With the exception of the slight dip his sophomore year, his role expanded each and every year under III. To compare the two is wholly and demonstrably wrong. The comparison actually disproves your point. And, finally, on the "JTIII will be forced to use him" point by PR, I disagree. I hope he does get significant time because that will mean we have a viable seven footer with all of the good things that brings. But forced? If Govan is better than Hayes, Govan will get the significant minutes. And if Cope and or Paul get bigger and/or taller (not unreasonable expectations) or if Agau is a good fit, you could easily see us go "small" with one of them in the five slot for a number of minutes per game. Notre Dame is in the Elite Eight and they play guys who are 6'6" or so at the five slot for meaningful minutes. 1. Do you think not red-shirting Henry Sims was a good decision? 2. Do you believe giving Senior Julian Vaughn more minutes over Junior Henry Sims was a long-term good decision?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 27, 2015 13:30:57 GMT -5
Go ahead and argue about whether Brad should have played more until now or whether he will play more next year. That's fine. But enough with the Henry Sims comparisons (which are used, as here, as evidence that "Coach doesn't use guys until he has to use them and then lo and behlld they're good. Imagine if he had used them earlier!") Sims played 9 mins per game his freshmen year. Not only wasn't he red-shirted, but he was a meaningful rotational player. He played more minutes that year than Julian Vaughn did!In 09-10 it dipped to 6-7 mpg, but he was behind not only Vaughn (who stole some of his time) but a sophomore lottery pick in Greg Monroe, who also had improved year-over-year more than did Sims. Still, he played 6-7 minutes per game. Not exactly Bradley circa 2014-15 minutes. By his junior year he played 14 mpg. That's almost more per game than Brad played this entire year. That's essentially the same amount that Aaron and Tre played on a per game basis this year. He was a major part of that team. Heck, Vaughn only played 23 mpg that year! So, it wasn't like Henry was buried behind him.And he obviously played a ton his senior year. With the exception of the slight dip his sophomore year, his role expanded each and every year under III. To compare the two is wholly and demonstrably wrong. The comparison actually disproves your point. And, finally, on the "JTIII will be forced to use him" point by PR, I disagree. I hope he does get significant time because that will mean we have a viable seven footer with all of the good things that brings. But forced? If Govan is better than Hayes, Govan will get the significant minutes. And if Cope and or Paul get bigger and/or taller (not unreasonable expectations) or if Agau is a good fit, you could easily see us go "small" with one of them in the five slot for a number of minutes per game. Notre Dame is in the Elite Eight and they play guys who are 6'6" or so at the five slot for meaningful minutes. 1. Do you think not red-shirting Henry Sims was a good decision? 2. Do you believe giving Senior Julian Vaughn more minutes over Junior Henry Sims was a long-term good decision? 1. I have a hard time ever recommending a red-shirt for someone who is going to play meaningful minutes on a team in the year they otherwise would redshirt. And he did play meaningful minutes (roughly 25% of the total minutes at his position). It's a reasonable argument for a guy like Bradley who really didn't play reasonable minutes, but that wasn't the case with Sims. I also have a hard time recommending a red-shirt when the guys in front of you are still going to be there the next year. This wasn't a situation where he came in and Vaughn was a senior and we knew for sure that Greg was gone after a year. Vaughn was going to be there next year (and so, as it turned out, was Greg). So, there is no clearly strategic reason to have done it. Finally, I'd note that a redshirt is never a good idea for a guy with a questionable work ethic. Henry seems to have been that guy at the time. If you aren't going to work on your game and you're actually preparing to play for games, are you really going to work on it when there's no chance you see the court? Now, in pure hindsight, I suppose I would have preferred that he red-shirted. And I say that only because we know in hindsight that the year ended in a very disappointing NIT bid, so why not? But I think it was probably the right decision at the time. There's no reason to think that the leap he made wouldn't have otherwise come between years four and five just as it came between years three and four. 2. Well, there wasn't really a long term to consider. Henry only had one more year to play. And he performed great in that one year. So, it'd be hard to argue that it was a bad "long term" decision to have played him a few more minutes a game than the already fairly high 14 mpg he got. I mean, if he had played 20 mpg instead, do you think his senior year would have been even better? I doubt it. Would the light have turned on for him in his junior year with that extra time? No. I guess the better question is whether it would have been wiser to give him more time that year to help that year's team (that is, the 10-11 team). Again, I doubt it. I don't recall thinking that his performance when he was in there was so wonderful that I didn't understand why he didn't play more. Sure, I remember thinking that Vaughn was limited and it would've been great to have a more dynamic five-man playing, but I don't recall thinking that it was Henry. Obviously, we all would have liked to have had senior Henry for four years (or even three...or two). But we didn't. And I really don't think there's anything that Coach did or didn't do to cause that. If Bradley comes out next year and sets the world on fire, then I'll be the first to say "boy, we should've tried to redshirt him," but we have no reason to think that's what is going to happen. The most likely scenario? He makes another incremental improvement and plays 10 mpg or so. He plays adequate positional defense (but bigger guys have their way with him), rebounds reasonably well on both ends but struggles with bigger or more athletic guys there too, and gives us very little in terms of one-on-one offensive play. For me, assuming Govan is as advertised, that would be great. It would inevitably lead to people saying "see, he's capable, he should have played more earlier," and maybe they'd be right. But they're deluding themselves if they think that it's more likely than not that they're right based on what we've seen. Here's hoping I'm wrong! Here's hoping he's Henry Sims circa February 2012.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 13:48:07 GMT -5
Just curious but who was the last eligible player Georgetown Redshirted for non medical reasons?
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 27, 2015 14:09:32 GMT -5
1. Do you think not red-shirting Henry Sims was a good decision? Henry Sims was so good his senior year that he wasn't coming back for a fifth year whether he had a fifth year of eligibility or not. Trying to nail someone down on whether that was a mistake is insane - it's entirely a moot point.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Mar 27, 2015 14:19:51 GMT -5
You have to really dedicate yourself in the offseason, otherwise you won't be ready for the season. If we don't beat the dead horse now, how are we going to be ready to beat the dead horse during Big East play? Let's be honest--a few minutes of dead horse beating when we are playing cream puffs in December isn't going to make much of a difference if we need to beat the dead horse in February or March. I think the few really awesome minutes of dead-horse-beating that we are seeing here proves beyond any doubt that we are ready to really beat some seriously good dead horses next season. BTW True story, my latin teacher in high school (Jesuit priest) bet on a horse that dropped dead in the middle of the race. We called him Mortuus Equus (behind his back, of course). Literally, the funniest Latin-related story I've ever heard. And my HS Latin teacher thought she was funny. She was not remotely funny in Latin or in English.
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jld
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Post by jld on Mar 27, 2015 14:21:22 GMT -5
Enough already. Bradley did a great job for us in an NCAA game and helped save us from a horrific potential loss. He was ready when called upon and gave EWU a look that they were not prepared for. He will be an all-time Hoya for this.
But to go back and revisit history is ludicrous.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Mar 27, 2015 14:42:16 GMT -5
Bradley will play center next year. Hopefully, he will see the need to put in some serious work in the off-season and return ready to be more offensively minded. Not to mention, we have two exceptional passers in White and Copeland that can feed him the ball.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 27, 2015 15:03:41 GMT -5
I think the few really awesome minutes of dead-horse-beating that we are seeing here proves beyond any doubt that we are ready to really beat some seriously good dead horses next season. BTW True story, my latin teacher in high school (Jesuit priest) bet on a horse that dropped dead in the middle of the race. We called him Mortuus Equus (behind his back, of course). Literally, the funniest Latin-related story I've ever heard. And my HS Latin teacher thought she was funny. She was not remotely funny in Latin or in English. Getting credit for the funniest Latin-related story is sort of like winning the award for the tallest Hobbit. But, hey, I'll take it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 27, 2015 15:06:42 GMT -5
1. Do you think not red-shirting Henry Sims was a good decision? Henry Sims was so good his senior year that he wasn't coming back for a fifth year whether he had a fifth year of eligibility or not. Trying to nail someone down on whether that was a mistake is insane - it's entirely a moot point. I don't agree with this at all TC, Henry played well his Sr. Year but he wasn't even drafted off the performance. Why wouldn't he have stayed to improve upon it? He would have stayed a fifth year if it were available to him imo.. P.S. - Henry was not a red shirt candidate at any point of his time @ G'town in my view...
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Mar 27, 2015 15:22:07 GMT -5
Let's not forget that Henry himself has stated he did not commit himself to Basketball until his senior year. And let's also recall the kid was Baltimore's Co-POY.... he was far more advanced than Hayes when he arrived at GU. This is a fallacy that is constantly repeated around here. This article, the main source of the story, was written during his junior year. But because Sims had an even stronger senior year, people mix up the timeline. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/22/AR2010122205084.htmlWell, if it's a fallacy, it's one that's been repeated by JT3: "You hear stories about the player that's the first to get to the gym and the last to leave," said Georgetown coach John Thompson III. "Henry was not that guy for three years. And then all of a sudden going into senior year, he decided to commit himself to his craft and commit himself to basketball, and he saw the results."
That work translated into a statistical explosion senior year. Sims averaged nearly 12 points (his career high in any game in his first three years just 12 points) and 3.5 assists — a hefty total for a big man. In fact, Sims is likely the best passing big in this year's draft.
www.baltimoresun.com/sports/nba/bs-sp-henry-sims-nba-draft-0626-20120626-story.html#page=1
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 27, 2015 17:14:27 GMT -5
Well, if it's a fallacy, it's one that's been repeated by JT3: "You hear stories about the player that's the first to get to the gym and the last to leave," said Georgetown coach John Thompson III. "Henry was not that guy for three years. And then all of a sudden going into senior year, he decided to commit himself to his craft and commit himself to basketball, and he saw the results."
That work translated into a statistical explosion senior year. Sims averaged nearly 12 points (his career high in any game in his first three years just 12 points) and 3.5 assists — a hefty total for a big man. In fact, Sims is likely the best passing big in this year's draft.
www.baltimoresun.com/sports/nba/bs-sp-henry-sims-nba-draft-0626-20120626-story.html#page=1
I don't doubt that Sims worked even harder, and improved even more, from junior to senior year. I just want to point out that, at around the midpoint of his junior year, it looked like he had undergone that transition, and people were recognizing it. Then he had a weaker Big East season than we would have thought based on his performance in the preseason, and when he had a good senior year, everyone forgot the good first half of his junior year. I don't think people are being intentionally misleading, I think they're conflating the stories. JTIII could be just as guilty of that as anyone else. My point is that, based on the contemporaneous news stories, Sims put in the work before his junior year, and did improve. He should get credit for that, not just the bigger leap (perhaps a result of even more dedication) in his senior year.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 27, 2015 18:29:09 GMT -5
Regarding redshirts, it is always easy to say someone should be redshirted in retrospect because you have the benefit of hindsight. Also, it makes sense that a player could be better by the time they are essentially a 5th year college student because you have even more time to develop. All that being said, redshirts are clearly not an option the staff uses solely to squeeze another year out if people. Very few other top basketball programs do it, either. Also, everyone always assumes the player wants to redshirt and that it would always be best for the player without any real knowledge if that's true or not.
Second, I don't really understand the thinking behind the Hayes should play more movement. He did great against EWU but that was a unique circumstance where he towered over his opponents. Do you seriously think that JT3 was secretly holding Hayes back even though he could help the team? Or was it that Hayes simply wasn't up to the level of Hopkins or Smith in practice every day?
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Mar 27, 2015 18:42:19 GMT -5
Regarding redshirts, it is always easy to say someone should be redshirted in retrospect because you have the benefit of hindsight. Also, it makes sense that a player could be better by the time they are essentially a 5th year college student because you have even more time to develop. All that being said, redshirts are clearly not an option the staff uses solely to squeeze another year out if people. Very few other top basketball programs do it, either. Also, everyone always assumes the player wants to redshirt and that it would always be best for the player without any real knowledge if that's true or not. Second, I don't really understand the thinking behind the Hayes should play more movement. He did great against EWU but that was a unique circumstance where he towered over his opponents. Do you seriously think that JT3 was secretly holding Hayes back even though he could help the team? Or was it that Hayes simply wasn't up to the level of Hopkins or Smith in practice every day? This is heresy! Son, you need to back up and get wit da program.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 27, 2015 19:04:42 GMT -5
1. Do you think not red-shirting Henry Sims was a good decision? Henry Sims was so good his senior year that he wasn't coming back for a fifth year whether he had a fifth year of eligibility or not. Trying to nail someone down on whether that was a mistake is insane - it's entirely a moot point. Which is weirder: Hoyatalk's fetish with the third string player not getting minutes du jour, or Hoyatalk's fetish with redshirts? I can't decide.
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