GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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B. Hayes
Jan 17, 2014 11:00:05 GMT -5
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 17, 2014 11:00:05 GMT -5
Roy Hibbert, Jeff Green (even as freshmen), and Brandon Bowman are so much better than this year's front line it is comical to even make the comparison. The very thought of a double-double, not in reference to Josh's lunch, can't even realistically cross our minds. Hayes would not have gotten time on that team. That said, Roy wouldn't have either had that not been what jtiii was "stuck" with. We seem to have a knack for taking projects and turning them into transfers.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 17, 2014 11:08:08 GMT -5
TJI & Gigs, you are missing my point. The team was forced to play Hibbert & Green because they only had one viable upper classmen on the frontline and that was Bowman. A freshman Green would start this year but a freshman Roy at the 5, I doubt it. This years team has Moses, Nate, Smith (when studying) & Hopkins in addition to our wings like Bowen.
Now with that context, a sophomore Hayes would get run at the 5 on that team. Roy would pick up crazy quick calls because he was too slow. Now we have a bevy of upperclassmen who are all underwhelming but can supply defense (moses), passing (lubick), & blocks (Hopkins/moses) so if none of them can score (this includes Hayes), then why play the sophomore who probably isn't as good in the other categories as the upperclassmen?
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Jan 17, 2014 11:45:23 GMT -5
I like Caprio and playing him at the Center worked...we won...
With that said..I believe it was extremely embarrassing to Bradley Hayes to ride the bench unredshirted for the 2nd year in a row and see more people pass you in the rotation.
Also add to the equation our front line play is about as bad as it has been in years between the low scoring of points, rebounds and fouls
It is hard to imagine with the new recruits coming in that they will not be given time at the Center position before Bradley Hayes.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 17, 2014 13:25:19 GMT -5
I like Caprio and playing him at the Center worked...we won... With that said..I believe it was extremely embarrassing to Bradley Hayes to ride the bench unredshirted for the 2nd year in a row and see more people pass you in the rotation. Also add to the equation our front line play is about as bad as it has been in years between the low scoring of points, rebounds and fouls It is hard to imagine with the new recruits coming in that they will not be given time at the Center position before Bradley Hayes. None of the freshman recruits are centers, so I think it's unlikely, except in rare situations where we might be playing very small (for example, even Porter never played at center, and Copeland/White seem to project more as SF/PF types than centers). The situation where Caprio was the center should not be a common occurrence. If all we have next year is Hopkins and Hayes, Hayes will have to play. Even if Moses comes back, there still isn't much depth there, and Lubick won't be around. Of course, this all assumes that Smith doesn't come back. If he's back, and Moses comes back for a 5th year, then I do think Hayes will be highly unlikely to get a lot of playing time.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by TC on Jan 17, 2014 15:03:50 GMT -5
Does anyone really think he gets out of the doghouse? He's in the doghouse because he hasn't displayed any offensive skillset of use to this program, and no defensive ability either. I was pretty much the most negative on him in his recruiting thread, and I've seen absolutely nothing that changed my mind in the year and a half he's been at Georgetown. I did enjoy this post though in retrospect, before Josh Smith was ever rumored with the Hoyas : hoyatalk2.proboards.com/post/497014/thread7'2" with soft hands and a shot but in dire need of conditioning is a lot different than 6'11" with no game other than posting and dunking. Maybe he has other skills - but I know I've watched all the videos in this thread, I don't see any sort of shot other than a dunk, I see no interior passing, not much ball handling, no alleys, and I'm not that impressed with his shot blocking. You're right you take Josh Smith, his soft hands, AND his dire need of conditioning and ill take Hayes and well see where they both are in 3 years I think ANY Of us will take Josh Smith over Hayes right now (sans academic troubles).
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dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by dreamhoya on Jan 17, 2014 15:27:44 GMT -5
Be encouraged by the fact that Raftery said on telecast that "this guy will help them down the line; [gus], didn't you get the sense that he'll help them - in looking at him in practice?" I'm in the Hayes camp. AB's camp. Domingo's camp. Heck I think Riyan Williams could be another spot ball handler for this team (although he doesn't know the "offense" yet) I'm with you but Riyan Williams was not even the best player at Yates oftentimes. Gotcha, i haven't played at Yates so I don't know.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jan 17, 2014 15:29:19 GMT -5
This is the Kirk Cousins thread. Love the guy who is the back-up until he plays. If the kid isn't ready, then so be it. We always talk about players being too impatient and not sticking with programs. Henry was the antithesis of this and it worked for him. Guys used to never play their first few years unless they were exceptional. Now you are a bust if you aren't contributing in year two. As a big, his time will come if he works at his game. Another note is he was no Henry Sims coming out of high school. Sims was a top 50 recruit I believe and Hayes was a late bloomer and virtual unknown. They can't give him 5 mins a game to jump and rebound and get in the way with his size? Something Josh hasn't done well yet?
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jan 17, 2014 15:30:58 GMT -5
FYI Bradley held his own in the Kenner League , I can tell you this if you played Roy you can play Bradley it's as simple as that he's 7 feet tall...he can block shots rebound play defense has a nice jump hook and he can dunk LOL...he's a pretty tough kid...the time he's play in game few games this season he's done well in the little time he's gotten... The 1 minute he gets into games especially lately I've seen potential. He just needs to be taught positioning.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jan 17, 2014 15:36:43 GMT -5
Does anyone really think he gets out of the doghouse? He's in the doghouse because he hasn't displayed any offensive skillset of use to this program, and no defensive ability either. I was pretty much the most negative on him in his recruiting thread, and I've seen absolutely nothing that changed my mind in the year and a half he's been at Georgetown. I did enjoy this post though in retrospect, before Josh Smith was ever rumored with the Hoyas : hoyatalk2.proboards.com/post/497014/threadYou're right you take Josh Smith, his soft hands, AND his dire need of conditioning and ill take Hayes and well see where they both are in 3 years I think ANY Of us will take Josh Smith over Hayes right now (sans academic troubles). That's easy to say if you sorta look at him generally, but if you look at his inclinations and what he TRIES to do and how he attempts to do it, you'd see he just needs coaching up and confidence. Just like AB. If AB was on the Marquette team that recruited him, he'd be averaging at least in the teens, he'd be pumped up by the coach and he'd be further along. Speaking of Roy, prior to his freshman year during summer league when i saw him in games at UDC, the guy had skill and talent and knew what he WANTED to do, but his body wasn't quite there yet. I thought he'd help the team....
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 17, 2014 15:43:38 GMT -5
Purple, love the four posts in a row but in your third one you say you like what you see in the one minute he gets in. Please tell me you are being sarcastic and not assuming that based on one minute of garbage time against other teams reserves that the kid is ready to contribute.
If we lose a few more games and we are suddenly well outside of the bubble, then I say you give the kid a shot. If not, I think he doesn't see minutes until next year or the following if Moses & Josh are both back.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 17, 2014 15:59:00 GMT -5
Hayes is like this - you're down to opening up two Christmas presents, and one is gigantic, and the other looks like a bunch of socks. Your wife told you she was getting you new socks because your old ones have holes in them, and you haven't opened any socks yet, so you know socks are coming. You open the big one and it's a TV, leaving only the last present. Letting Hayes play is like opening that bunch of socks - you know that you are going to get socks, but for some reason you have the crazy hope that there's something exciting in there even though if you look at it realistically and logically you know it is just socks.
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 17, 2014 16:44:51 GMT -5
Hayes is like this - you're down to opening up two Christmas presents, and one is gigantic, and the other looks like a bunch of socks. Your wife told you she was getting you new socks because your old ones have holes in them, and you haven't opened any socks yet, so you know socks are coming. You open the big one and it's a TV, leaving only the last present. Letting Hayes play is like opening that bunch of socks - you know that you are going to get socks, but for some reason you have the crazy hope that there's something exciting in there even though if you look at it realistically and logically you know it is just socks. In this analogy, I think Hayes is the big box full of unknown, and our current front court is the pack of socks. Sure, the big box could be a TV. Could also be Señor Xtapolapocetl. I don't know. But I'd rather open it than resign myself to the socks.
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nodak89
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Roy Roy Royyyyy!!!
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Post by nodak89 on Jan 17, 2014 17:14:41 GMT -5
What about giving him some Ben Gillery minutes? Win the tip play some D, maybe snag a rebound (more likely commit our obligatory foul in the first couple minutes) and then get out at the first stoppage.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by RBHoya on Jan 17, 2014 18:02:43 GMT -5
i understand some of your frustrations, but this has most to do with JT3 recruiting him at the first place. i remember questioning recruiting him, then there were a lot of posters defending him that he is relatively unknown star who is an upcoming star... would like to ask what they saw in him during high school. Same things you can see in him now, really--a legitimate 7 footer who is also a mobile and fluid athlete. Clearly the skills weren't there yet, and seemingly still aren't. But looking solely at potential, I don't think there's anyone on the current team whose ceiling is higher than Hayes'. At the time we recruited him we were pretty desperate for a center, as we didn't have one in that class, didn't have one the class before, and the only one in the pipeline was Ayegba who to that point had not shown much. With a scholarship open in the late period Hayes was undoubtedly worth a shot. He also fit the profile of the "late bloomer", having grown 9 inches late in high school and being young for his grade. Again that's of course no guarantee of success, but there's precedent for big guys like that who have grown into their body a little later and blown up, so that added even more intrigue. Nobody thought he was going to be an instant impact guy--he was averaging 13 points a game at a high school nobody had heard of. But the natural ingredients were there, and you hope that if he has a lot of drive and determination you can give him some good coaching, some summer sessions with Roy and Greg and maybe even Zo, and that in a few years he'll put it all together and be a high level BE player or even a pro. So far, it hasn't worked out. But IMHO there's really no argument at all that he wasn't worth a scholarship. The raw materials were and are there, but it just hasn't come together for him yet. From what I've heard, I am not sure that Hayes has the drive to be great, or hasn't demonstrated it consistently. Maybe he'll turn out to be a Henry Sims, who floated through his first 3 years enjoying college life before realizing "Oh crap, if I don't get my act together as a basketball player, I'm going to have to get a real job" and finally started living up to his potential. Or, maybe he's another one of those guys who is blessed with the size and athleticism that many would kill for, but who simply doesn't have love or passion for the game. Only time will tell, and it's not looking great right now. But every one of us should be hoping that the light goes on for him, because if it does he could be a huge asset. You know how many 7 footers are in the Big East right now? Two--DeRosiers from Providence, and Bradley Hayes.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Jan 17, 2014 18:38:08 GMT -5
Hayes is like this - you're down to opening up two Christmas presents, and one is gigantic, and the other looks like a bunch of socks. Your wife told you she was getting you new socks because your old ones have holes in them, and you haven't opened any socks yet, so you know socks are coming. You open the big one and it's a TV, leaving only the last present. Letting Hayes play is like opening that bunch of socks - you know that you are going to get socks, but for some reason you have the crazy hope that there's something exciting in there even though if you look at it realistically and logically you know it is just socks. In this analogy, I think Hayes is the big box full of unknown, and our current front court is the pack of socks. Sure, the big box could be a TV. Could also be Señor Xtapolapocetl. I don't know. But I'd rather open it than resign myself to the socks. This is only really valid if nobody had seen him play. I saw him play a lot in Kenner, and he has a loooooooong way to go. And the coaching staff sees him practice every day, and thinks Caprio is a better center. Sometimes big guys can take huge leaps year to year, but it isn't happening this season.
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gujake
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by gujake on Jan 17, 2014 19:14:00 GMT -5
i understand some of your frustrations, but this has most to do with JT3 recruiting him at the first place. i remember questioning recruiting him, then there were a lot of posters defending him that he is relatively unknown star who is an upcoming star... would like to ask what they saw in him during high school. Same things you can see in him now, really--a legitimate 7 footer who is also a mobile and fluid athlete. Clearly the skills weren't there yet, and seemingly still aren't. But looking solely at potential, I don't think there's anyone on the current team whose ceiling is higher than Hayes'. At the time we recruited him we were pretty desperate for a center, as we didn't have one in that class, didn't have one the class before, and the only one in the pipeline was Ayegba who to that point had not shown much. With a scholarship open in the late period Hayes was undoubtedly worth a shot. He also fit the profile of the "late bloomer", having grown 9 inches late in high school and being young for his grade. Again that's of course no guarantee of success, but there's precedent for big guys like that who have grown into their body a little later and blown up, so that added even more intrigue. Nobody thought he was going to be an instant impact guy--he was averaging 13 points a game at a high school nobody had heard of. But the natural ingredients were there, and you hope that if he has a lot of drive and determination you can give him some good coaching, some summer sessions with Roy and Greg and maybe even Zo, and that in a few years he'll put it all together and be a high level BE player or even a pro. So far, it hasn't worked out. But IMHO there's really no argument at all that he wasn't worth a scholarship. The raw materials were and are there, but it just hasn't come together for him yet. From what I've heard, I am not sure that Hayes has the drive to be great, or hasn't demonstrated it consistently. Maybe he'll turn out to be a Henry Sims, who floated through his first 3 years enjoying college life before realizing "Oh crap, if I don't get my act together as a basketball player, I'm going to have to get a real job" and finally started living up to his potential. Or, maybe he's another one of those guys who is blessed with the size and athleticism that many would kill for, but who simply doesn't have love or passion for the game. Only time will tell, and it's not looking great right now. But every one of us should be hoping that the light goes on for him, because if it does he could be a huge asset. You know how many 7 footers are in the Big East right now? Two--DeRosiers from Providence, and Bradley Hayes. Yeah, there wasn't much downside to taking him. 7 footers are rare and athletic 7 footers are super rare. So far, it definitely looks like TC was right, though. Hopefully the light turns on at some point. From watching him at Kenner, I thought his offense was ahead of his defense. He had a decent hook shot and decent hands. Defensively, I thought he was out of position constantly. He also picked up a ton of cheap fouls when going for blocks (I guess in that way he fits right in with our other bigs). Maybe most disappointingly, I thought he just didn't have any rebounding instinct. As fans, we often get limited information on recruiting, but I do sometimes wonder about III's evaluations of bigs. For example, did we ever offer Mamadou Ndiaye? He's currently 1st in the NCAA in FG% and 4th in blocked shot % as a freshman. Sure, the competition in the Big West isn't amazing, but it's no coincidence that UC Irvine has gone from 108th to 43rd in defensive efficiency this year. I think an 8'1" wingspan would translate pretty well to the Big East, anyway. It's hard to believe Ndiaye would have picked UC Irvine over us if we had offered and pushed hard, but maybe I'm wrong about that. insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2014/story/_/id/10002061/why-uc-irvine-mamadou-ndiaye-top-prospect-nbawww.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-0114-mamadou-ndiaye-irvine-20140114,0,1519674.story I worry that Chukwu will be another big that we look back on and wonder why we didn't push harder. It's going to be a shame if we can't recruit (or develop) a good center to pair with the talented forwards/guards we have coming in.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jan 17, 2014 19:58:12 GMT -5
Purple, love the four posts in a row but in your third one you say you like what you see in the one minute he gets in. Please tell me you are being sarcastic and not assuming that based on one minute of garbage time against other teams reserves that the kid is ready to contribute. If we lose a few more games and we are suddenly well outside of the bubble, then I say you give the kid a shot. If not, I think he doesn't see minutes until next year or the following if Moses & Josh are both back. I was responding to 2 different posters, thanks. I'm not saying he should get significant minutes, what i'm saying is 5 mins per game would be good for him, moses and other post players. I'm also saying coach the guy up. GU will NOT be successful with out ANY post presence.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Jan 17, 2014 21:54:11 GMT -5
As fans, we often get limited information on recruiting, but I do sometimes wonder about III's evaluations of bigs. The sum total of JT3's high school recruiting at Georgetown has yielded 3 seasons of above average play at the 4/5 position (Monroe freshman, Monroe sophomore, Sims senior) so I certainly think this is a valid concern. We've had some guys who just weren't Big East caliber, some that were poor fits and some that had injuries. We also probably haven't recruited enough true big guys, but were able to bring in some competent bigs via transfer to prevent a total catastrophe. But by now, our ability to identify and land talented big guyss is very questionable. We've historically been "Big Man U", and have a Center tradition that no other school can match, including one of the best centers in the world right now who ALWAYS shouts out Georgetown... and yet, we can't seem to land a quality big guy, meaning we've thrown out frontcourt rotations like Lubick/Vaughn/Benimon/Sims a few years back or Lubick/Hopkins/Ayegba now. We've had a lot of mid-major caliber guys at the 4/5 spots, which is a shame because some of our guard and wing talent (Wright, Freeman, Clark, Thompson, Starks, Smith-Rivera, Porter etc.) have been excellent, but held back by the lack of quality big guys.
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Post by detmut on Jan 17, 2014 22:23:30 GMT -5
i feel sorry for any 7 footer who can't play basketball
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 18, 2014 7:31:27 GMT -5
Not pushing for Chukwu was a gigantic mistake. Gigantic.
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