TC
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Post by TC on Sept 25, 2013 12:09:48 GMT -5
If we're griping about the names of bills, we've truly run out of things to complain about.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 25, 2013 12:24:38 GMT -5
Liberal? Conservative? How about we try competent? As an aside, when something is defined by government as "Affordable", doesn't that always really mean paid for by others? As in President Clinton and "Affordable Housing" and Mr. Obama's "Affordable Care Act"? For example, what I see as a result of the ACA, is an increase in what I will personally have to pay. Certainly Health Care has not gotten more affordable for my family. Just wondering... So you're just going to avoid supporting the "more conservative" assertion with anything except "can't hurt!" You do realize that voters didn't reject Romney and McCain because they weren't conservative ENOUGH.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 25, 2013 12:51:49 GMT -5
You do realize that voters didn't reject Romney and McCain because they weren't conservative ENOUGH. I actually might take issue with that, but - on the other hand - I don't really have the energy to argue. I will say that whether this country is becoming less conservative/more progressive is really not "settled science" (to use a term popular with many liberals), certainly at least not as much as you claim it to be. While there are definitely some social issues where I think that case is demonstrable, there are many other (IMO more important) issues where the country is not at all in line with or even showing relatively strong support for the current direction we are heading. The Republicans' inability to be effective should not be mistaken for America turning its back on or leaving behind what conservatism stands for. Or, to paraphrase Joe Scarborough, "I don't mock Ted Cruz because he is wrong on the issues, I mock him because he acts like a clown."
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 26, 2013 9:18:47 GMT -5
IMO, the Republicans' inability to be effective stems directly from the fact that the party is bereft of ideas which a majority of the country finds palatable, despite Ed's protestations to the contrary. The Debt Limit Brief circulated yesterday starkly displays that point. If that list of negotiating demands sounds familiar, the reason is that the plan is Mitt Romney 2012 regurgitated. Republicans ran on this plan and lost by 5 million votes! They received over a million fewer votes than did Democrats in the House. From Republicans' perspective, thank heaven for those favorable district lines. What happened to that "re-branding" we heard so much about post election drubbing? Where are all those new ideas? Certainly not in that list! This negotiating tactic shows extreme contempt for the democratic process. Implement Romney's plan or we force a default on the debt. Remember, Romney lost.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 26, 2013 9:42:29 GMT -5
Very well said. Elections have consequences. The Democrats have been winning so tgey must be doing something right.
Their own contempt for democracy notwithstanding, they are playing by the rules and are entitled to do so.
I hope they do not welp like scalded dogs should the shoe end up on the other foot.
But knowing that crowd, I doubt it...
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 26, 2013 11:55:38 GMT -5
Very well said. Elections have consequences. The Democrats have been winning so tgey must be doing something right. Their own contempt for democracy notwithstanding, they are playing by the rules and are entitled to do so. I hope they do not welp like scalded dogs should the shoe end up on the other foot. But knowing that crowd, I doubt it... This kind of language and hyperbole is why the parties are so far apart. Do I disagree with republicans on most issues? Yes. Do I think that the current make up of the house makes it particularly vulnerable to looney tune ideas? Yes. But I would never suggest that republicans have "contempt for democracy". It's like the garbage that conservative radio spouts off suggesting that Obama is trying to "destroy America". Do you really think anyone is trying to destroy America?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 26, 2013 13:08:38 GMT -5
Well then, you are a better man than the President, Senate Majority Leader and House Minority Leader, all of whom have accused political opponents of far, FAR worse than simply "contempt for democracy."
Conservatives do the same, to be sure. Political hyperbole and blistering invective is nothing new.
I'd place larger blame on a lack of competence in leadership (yes, directed at both parties).
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 26, 2013 14:54:58 GMT -5
Jon Stewart brilliantly destroys Ted Cruz! I just couldn't resist.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 26, 2013 15:44:56 GMT -5
Well then, you are a better man than the President, Senate Majority Leader and House Minority Leader, all of whom have accused political opponents of far, FAR worse than simply "contempt for democracy." Conservatives do the same, to be sure. Political hyperbole and blistering invective is nothing new. I'd place larger blame on a lack of competence in leadership (yes, directed at both parties). That's all posturing. Taking this message board a tad too seriously, I'd say that most of us are in this for pretty level headed discussion since none of us can score political points by hyperbole on here. So with that said, I think you have to be on a pretty juvenile level of thinking to say that one party has "contempt for democracy".
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 26, 2013 18:45:17 GMT -5
Very well said. Elections have consequences. The Democrats have been winning so tgey must be doing something right. Their own contempt for democracy notwithstanding, they are playing by the rules and are entitled to do so. I hope they do not welp like scalded dogs should the shoe end up on the other foot. But knowing that crowd, I doubt it... This kind of language and hyperbole is why the parties are so far apart. Do I disagree with republicans on most issues? Yes. Do I think that the current make up of the house makes it particularly vulnerable to looney tune ideas? Yes. But I would never suggest that republicans have "contempt for democracy". It's like the garbage that conservative radio spouts off suggesting that Obama is trying to "destroy America". Do you really think anyone is trying to destroy America? www.businessinsider.com/debt-ceiling-republicans-obama-terrorist-hostage-deadline-2013-9
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Sept 26, 2013 19:38:36 GMT -5
Boz, compare the 110th Congress to this one. The Democrats compromised with Bush on the Iraq troop surge, on the financial recovery, and every other issue that had to be resolved with some urgency. The House Democrats postured and passed bills that Bush would not sign but then they cut deals and took care of their responsibility to govern. The 110th might have done more but the Senate Republicans set new records for forcing cloture votes and generally guaranteed that bringing up anything would create another bottleneck in the already back-logged Senate schedule.
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 28, 2013 10:51:45 GMT -5
Boz, compare the 110th Congress to this one. The Democrats compromised with Bush on the Iraq troop surge, on the financial recovery, and every other issue that had to be resolved with some urgency. The House Democrats postured and passed bills that Bush would not sign but then they cut deals and took care of their responsibility to govern. The 110th might have done more but the Senate Republicans set new records for forcing cloture votes and generally guaranteed that bringing up anything would create another bottleneck in the already back-logged Senate schedule. I'd take it another step even - in the 110th Congress, if Bush banged out a deal with Pelosi, it would have the votes. As in most Congresses, she had the support of her caucus and there was no questioning her leadership. When Gingrich shut down the government, he got a deal on budget a year later. Can anyone see Boehner achieving that in 2015 and getting the support of the House? Can anyone even see Boehner as the Speaker in 2015? In this scenario, where Conservatives have fought their own leadership, even if Obama were so weak as to want to compromise with someone on this (which he isn't), who would Obama compromise with? If you do something as politically risky as strike a deal with Boehner, what assurance do you have that you get Republican votes in the House out of that? This is a caucus that not only wants to spurn the President, but it wants a fight with its own leadership. There is literally no one to make a deal with, so when we get down to who should and will be blamed for a government shutdown, it's very simple. Conservatives will be blamed by everyone other than Conservatives. They hold absolutely no cards, they have no uniting desire other than to pick a fight with everyone involved, they have no realistic demands or objectives, and they have no leadership which can be bargained with because the people like EasyEd who want this fight have absolutely no respect for either Boehner or McConnell and won't support a realistic deal even if they struck one.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 28, 2013 11:09:16 GMT -5
I'm missing the part where I was defending the current Republican leadership...
(though anyone who suggests that the Democrats are providing quality leadership, I might ask where I can buy such high-quality blinders)
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 28, 2013 11:37:28 GMT -5
I'm missing the part where I was defending the current Republican leadership... Why wouldn't you defend them in this scenario though? This circus isn't their fault. Maybe they shouldn't be the leaders, but again that's not their fault either.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Sept 30, 2013 12:45:53 GMT -5
As one facing yet another furlough due to the possible (seems most likely now) shutdown of the government and probably another over the debt ceiling limit, I just want to say that we have a DYSFUNCTIONAL CONGRESS!!!
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 1, 2013 7:37:19 GMT -5
As one facing yet another furlough due to the possible (seems most likely now) shutdown of the government and probably another over the debt ceiling limit, I just want to say that we have a DYSFUNCTIONAL CONGRESS!!! Nevada, enjoy your vacation Not to worry, you'll be retroactively paid for your days off. And, just think, you and others, by not powering up your computers at work, will do you part to curb global warming.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 1, 2013 7:45:45 GMT -5
I don't think those fed furloughed will get paid. In the current climate, I do not see this Congress agreeing to federal employees who did not work getting paid. I am "excepted" as part of national security and have been told that while I will get paid, it will not happen in the normal time frame. Not an issue for me but for our administrative staff who are either furloughed (and probably won't get paid) and those "excepted" who will get paid late, there is a real life consequence.
Good luck, Nevada.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 1, 2013 7:54:09 GMT -5
There would appear to ba an argument to be made that the President cares more about his signature legislation than he does about keeping the government open.
Of course, we know that could not be true because his intentions are always pure and only Republicans are ideologues.
As an aside, Day 1 of the exchanges is off to a roaring start.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 1, 2013 8:11:53 GMT -5
Federal employees almost certainly will be paid, albeit not in a timely manner.
Federal contractors? Not so much.
Also, can we declare anyone who drives a Lexus SUV to be non-essential (or whatever they are calling it now)? Not just federal employees, everyone. And not just for a brief period, how about forever.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 1, 2013 8:15:30 GMT -5
Boz, federal employees who are "excepted" and are working today are going to get paid, and not in a timely manner. I am not so certain that furloughed employees, i.e, those not working will get paid. What's your basis for your statement that those employees "almost certainly will be paid"? In the current climate, I don't see that happening.
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