Georgetown 68 - Liberty 59 Game Discussion

[DanMcQ]

Porter was hit in the head, per JTIII. Being monitored now; didn't put him back in as a precaution.

No word on whether it's a concussion yet.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

Need to establish a lead so we can work on our rotation.

[rustyshackleford]

Nov 11, 2012 21:28:15 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

Need to establish a lead so we can work on our rotation.

Def - against better competition Hop will get in foul trouble and we'll need Hayes/Moses to be ready.

[joey0403p]

I know nothing about Liberty - but if we play as poorly as we did against Duq...we are going to struggle early.

I think the biggest concern is our zone offense....in that there is none.

I do hope with otto back in the lineup - he can flash to the high post, pivot and drop the midrange jumper consistently.

[hoyas big supporter]

Nov 11, 2012 21:33:32 GMT -5 rustyshackleford said:

Nov 11, 2012 21:28:15 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

Need to establish a lead so we can work on our rotation.

Def - against better competition Hop will get in foul trouble and we'll need Hayes/Moses to be ready.

Definitely? I didn't realize that was a basketball rule.

[hoyas big supporter]

Nov 12, 2012 9:53:06 GMT -5 joey0403p said:

I think the biggest concern is our zone offense....in that there is none.

I didn't realize that we had any problems with our zone offense last night?

[hoyazeke]

I agree with HBS. The offense flowed alot better. We just weren't making our shots. And that was without Otto. A positive from last night is that we now know that we have at least one knock down shooter. I still believe that Kel and Domingo are also good/great shooters beyond the arc. Kel seems to be pressing a little and Domingo isn't showing any confidence yet. Otto seems to be over-confident. Over-confidence can lead to lost of focus and poor shot selection sometimes. Let's hope against Liberty they all calm down because UCLA will beat us if we don't shoot better............

[SFHoya99]

Nov 12, 2012 10:04:48 GMT -5 hoyas big supporter said:

Nov 12, 2012 9:53:06 GMT -5 joey0403p said:

I think the biggest concern is our zone offense....in that there is none.

I didn't realize that we had any problems with our zone offense last night?

Coach seems to think so -- (along with pretty much everyone else in the world):

"I thought our zone offense was not that good again. I have to go back and look at the tape, but from where I was sitting the middle was open, but we just weren't throwing it in there. So regardless of what zone offense you run and what the zone defense is, you have to get the ball inside and play out of that."

Our zone offense was not good. We've had a good zone offense plenty of times. It can come around. But the idea that it was good last night is simply wrong.

[hoyas big supporter]

Nov 12, 2012 11:28:01 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Nov 12, 2012 10:04:48 GMT -5 hoyas big supporter said:

I didn't realize that we had any problems with our zone offense last night?

Coach seems to think so -- (along with pretty much everyone else in the world):

"I thought our zone offense was not that good again. I have to go back and look at the tape, but from where I was sitting the middle was open, but we just weren't throwing it in there. So regardless of what zone offense you run and what the zone defense is, you have to get the ball inside and play out of that."

Our zone offense was not good. We've had a good zone offense plenty of times. It can come around. But the idea that it was good last night is simply wrong.

When is coach ever gonna say "yeah I think we played well and exactly how I coached it up" less than 2 games into the season?? Of course there's room for improvement, but we had no problem with Duquense's zone, we just weren't hitting our looks. We forced them out of their zone a few times, just not consistently enough. We didn't get the ball into the high post often enough (even though it was there), but there's more than one way to skin the cat. What we saw last night was completely different than what we saw against Florida. the difference was night and day. The idea that our zone offense is nonexistent is simply wrong.

[SFHoya99]

Nov 12, 2012 12:16:30 GMT -5 hoyas big supporter said:

Nov 12, 2012 11:28:01 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Coach seems to think so -- (along with pretty much everyone else in the world):

"I thought our zone offense was not that good again. I have to go back and look at the tape, but from where I was sitting the middle was open, but we just weren't throwing it in there. So regardless of what zone offense you run and what the zone defense is, you have to get the ball inside and play out of that."

Our zone offense was not good. We've had a good zone offense plenty of times. It can come around. But the idea that it was good last night is simply wrong.

When is coach ever gonna say "yeah I think we played well and exactly how I coached it up" less than 2 games into the season?? Of course there's room for improvement, but we had no problem with Duquense's zone, we just weren't hitting our looks. We forced them out of their zone a few times, just not consistently enough. We didn't get the ball into the high post often enough (even though it was there), but there's more than one way to skin the cat. What we saw last night was completely different than what we saw against Florida. the difference was night and day. The idea that our zone offense is nonexistent is simply wrong.

Of course the zone offense is not non-existent. That's called hyperbole. It's a common, if overused, device used in writing in conversation these days to make a point.

The zone offense -- or offense, since we've played against about 10 possessions of M2M so far -- has been tentative for the most part.

We've all seen it be good, even if most of our fans forget how many times we've actually torched Cuse's 2-3 (or other zone Ds). The coach is capable.

But passing around the perimeter, rarely, if ever, getting it to the high post, and constantly making ill-advised passes and dropping any kind of pass is not strong execution in either the "they are doing what they should" or the "the shots are going in" sense.

I agree, actually, that it isn't the zone.

It's the players in general. No Otto doesn't help, but there's no creators on this team except perhaps DSR.

No one on this team is a legit creator in sense of "give them the ball and they can score or create a shot for others." We definitely don't have a Monroe/Green/Hibbert/Freeman/Wright type -- and I'm not sure we even have players in the Clark/Cook/Bowman/Sims vein right now.

[hoyas big supporter]

Yeah a hyperbole that is a bit unfair considering the night/day improvement from Florida vs the zone (where we looked not only horrible, but lost as well) to last night (where we looked comfortable, just not efficient enough).

Give the players a chance to show something before you say that they're not "so and so" type of player. Everybody knows what were getting with Nate. Greg didn't take many shots last year because of his role on the team, and Otto still wasn't very high usage.

Again, some players do, in fact, have the ability to create in the same way some of the previous players you mentioned did. Not every previous player that you listed was in attack mode when they stepped into new roles on a new team. Everyone still needs to figure out their new roles on this team and that has led to tentative offensive play. But after such a small sample size it's unfair to try and evaluate individual talents. Even DSR, who you say can create, hasn't shown us his game. He hasn't yet really created off the dribble so far, and definitely not any more so than Markel or Jabril. Doesn't mean he can't, just that he hasn't showed it yet. Considering we're 1 game into the season.

Mikael is also a better creator (in terms of post offense) than Sims was. He has more post game than Sims, and should be more effective in his activity as the season wears on. Sims has 3 inches on Hop and that's really where the rebounding disparity comes from.

Look, I'm not gonna sit here and say we have a team full of above average shot creators, but it is entirely premature to say what were capable of. Additionally, it's unfair to compare some players to former Hoya greats so early. We have a new team with a whole new set of leaders and we have no identity yet. One game into the season (without our best player to boot) is not the right time to accurately evaluate our players' strengths/weaknesses. At least give the players a chance to perform before assessing them. It's alright to evaluate their performances, but do so within context. Remember how horrible Greg was on offense in the beginning of last year, as opposed to BE play? The players will come around, they just need more experience playing together.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Nov 12, 2012 12:47:11 GMT -5 hoyas big supporter said:

[
Mikael is also a better creator (in terms of post offense) than Sims was. He has more post game than Sims, and should be more effective in his activity as the season wears on. Sims has 3 inches on Hop and that's really where the rebounding disparity comes from.

Agreed. I think Hopkins has better offensive instincts than Sims had and will develop into a solid post player on offense. The fact is that when the team was struggling, he persistently tried to make things happen in the post.

Right now, Hopkins is behind Sims on defense and passing. Passing can be improved (remember how awkward Sims looked before his junior year?), and defense can be improved. I also think that we may see more of Moses in key defensive possessions later in the season.

[Deleted]

Mikael doesn’t have as many post moves as Sims, and he definitely does not have better foot work..

Hopkins looked like he was practicing his post moves in a empty gym rather than going against actual competition. There were plenty of times when he spun towards the defense rather than feeling the defender and spinning away. Overall I thought his performance was poor but the thing that bothered me the most was his lack of communication on offense and D. There is NO excuse for that, no matter how bad you are playing. Moses did more talking in 3 minutes than Hop did in 20.

I expect him to get better, 1st game etc, but Hopkins Please Talk on Defense! That’s all I ask, he gave us no presence on that side of the ball. 1 defensive rebound in 20 minutes??.. smh

Oh yeah and More Ayegba please.. Not saying he’s the answer but I would like to see more..

[RDF]

If someone is going to stand and watch their teammates compete, they can sit and watch like rest of audience. A message needs to be sent about standard of effort expected and if it's not--then it's going to kill this team when level of opponent increases. Hopkins/DSR had multiple possessions where they gave pickup game level effort on defense and in Hopkins case-stood 3 feet away while others dove/fought for loose balls/rebounds. That's not something that warrants playing time. Moses should get more time if that is what Hopkins is going to give and DSR has to be reminded that games take place on both ends of the court--he was putrid in last 5 minutes on defense-and kept Duquesne in game with breakdowns.

[SFHoya99]

Nov 12, 2012 12:50:43 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Nov 12, 2012 12:47:11 GMT -5 hoyas big supporter said:

[
Mikael is also a better creator (in terms of post offense) than Sims was. He has more post game than Sims, and should be more effective in his activity as the season wears on. Sims has 3 inches on Hop and that's really where the rebounding disparity comes from.

Agreed. I think Hopkins has better offensive instincts than Sims had and will develop into a solid post player on offense. The fact is that when the team was struggling, he persistently tried to make things happen in the post.

Right now, Hopkins is behind Sims on defense and passing. Passing can be improved (remember how awkward Sims looked before his junior year?), and defense can be improved. I also think that we may see more of Moses in key defensive possessions later in the season.

Hopkins has demonstrated some nice quickness in the post, and in previous games showed some nice moves.

But he's not nearly the passer Sims was, and he'll face the same issue against good teams that we saw with Sims, Vaughn and even Greg Monroe at times:

If our low post player can't score efficiently against one on one defense, he won't be able to create for anyone.

Even Monroe saw this: if you shoot 40% on low post shots and don't create fouls, no one will help on D. And that means no cuts, no open threes, just a really poor offense in the post.

Every offense is basically created by the ability of someone to beat another player one on one more than 50% of the time. Defenses must compensate by helping which creates other opportunities.

So far we've got no one who generates the need for help D.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2012 13:32:59 GMT -5 RDF said:

If someone is going to stand and watch their teammates compete, they can sit and watch like rest of audience. A message needs to be sent about standard of effort expected and if it's not--then it's going to kill this team when level of opponent increases. Hopkins/DSR had multiple possessions where they gave pickup game level effort on defense and in Hopkins case-stood 3 feet away while others dove/fought for loose balls/rebounds. That's not something that warrants playing time. Moses should get more time if that is what Hopkins is going to give and DSR has to be reminded that games take place on both ends of the court--he was putrid in last 5 minutes on defense-and kept Duquesne in game with breakdowns.

Preach...

[sleepy]

Nov 12, 2012 13:35:03 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Nov 12, 2012 12:50:43 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Agreed. I think Hopkins has better offensive instincts than Sims had and will develop into a solid post player on offense. The fact is that when the team was struggling, he persistently tried to make things happen in the post.

Right now, Hopkins is behind Sims on defense and passing. Passing can be improved (remember how awkward Sims looked before his junior year?), and defense can be improved. I also think that we may see more of Moses in key defensive possessions later in the season.

Hopkins has demonstrated some nice quickness in the post, and in previous games showed some nice moves.

But he's not nearly the passer Sims was, and he'll face the same issue against good teams that we saw with Sims, Vaughn and even Greg Monroe at times:

If our low post player can't score efficiently against one on one defense, he won't be able to create for anyone.

Even Monroe saw this: if you shoot 40% on low post shots and don't create fouls, no one will help on D. And that means no cuts, no open threes, just a really poor offense in the post.

Every offense is basically created by the ability of someone to beat another player one on one more than 50% of the time. Defenses must compensate by helping which creates other opportunities.

So far we've got no one who generates the need for help D.

Well, Monroe, Sims, and Vaughn were all the the facilitators of the offense and the main threat inside the arc. The offense isn't going to run through Hopkins the way it ran through those players. Porter is going to have those responsibilities. People seem to be forgetting it wasn't until 2008 that we had our center and main back to the basket player being the one to really facilitate the offense. I assume, I don't know since Otto has only played 6 minutes this season, that we aren't going to see the ball running through the low post the way it has the last few years. It's going to to be run through the high-post and out through the wings, where our best players are.

Now if you want to say Porter will face those same issues, that's fine. But to say Hopkins will have the same problems Monroe, Sims, and Vaughn had when he won't be playing nearly as important of a role is just silly. And if we are running our offense through Hopkins, well we have bigger problems than him. Namely it might be time to look for a new coach or get our current one a brain scan.

[HometownHoya]

Personally I believe that the high usage of Hopkins and Markel were according to game plan, as well as Whit focusing on the boards rather then shots within the offense. Obviously Otto's injury accelerated the game plan and showed some weaknesses that Otto would hide. I expect a similar game plan against liberty but involving Domingo and Moses more, something that was scrapped against Dusq. because we didn't have Otto to help hide their more glaring weaknesses. Also, I feel like Trawick is getting more minutes at the 1 then the 2, even if he is in with Markel.

No matter what, I'd like to see Greg scoring more, Markel taking less shots but better shots, and more PT for our bench.

[calhoya]

Nov 12, 2012 13:35:03 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Nov 12, 2012 12:50:43 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Agreed. I think Hopkins has better offensive instincts than Sims had and will develop into a solid post player on offense. The fact is that when the team was struggling, he persistently tried to make things happen in the post.

Right now, Hopkins is behind Sims on defense and passing. Passing can be improved (remember how awkward Sims looked before his junior year?), and defense can be improved. I also think that we may see more of Moses in key defensive possessions later in the season.

Hopkins has demonstrated some nice quickness in the post, and in previous games showed some nice moves.

But he's not nearly the passer Sims was, and he'll face the same issue against good teams that we saw with Sims, Vaughn and even Greg Monroe at times:

If our low post player can't score efficiently against one on one defense, he won't be able to create for anyone.

So far we've got no one who generates the need for help D.

Agree. Part of Hopkins' problem was that he was receiving the ball and then bringing it down, putting it on the floor or otherwise hesitating, which allowed other players to knock it out of his hands, get better position to disrupt his move to the basket and even on a few occasions slide over to provide help, if necessary. The movement in and out of the post has to be much quicker--either a shot or a pass, but he cannot take 3 seconds to make a decision with the ball in the paint.

[crashdavis]

I was told Otto's issue is with his eye. He couldn't see well at all after it happened....was having trouble focusing and a sensitivity to light. My guess is that it is a scratched cornea. Supposed to find out on Wednesday if he can go.