sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Aug 29, 2014 7:59:56 GMT -5
Unless we start closing on a couple of quality guards for the 15 and 16 class, i'm far from convinced that our overall recruiting has really improved based upon what we put on the floor from an competitive basis. We can all get excited about the length skill and athleticsm of this current class and next years but i'm tired of a 3 guard team with little to no depth and limited experience which we have seen over the last 3 years. I'm not as concerned with the offense being impacted but the lack of depth has limited our defensive options with foul trouble, limiting pressure never mind even a minor injury to the backcourt.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Aug 29, 2014 8:19:17 GMT -5
So what are we thinking in terms of chances of ranking our chances I'd say:
Crawford Dozier (UNC) Chetham (Marquette) Bacon ( Florida St)
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by IDenj on Aug 29, 2014 9:32:45 GMT -5
I'm saying Dozier to USCe if Hoyas don't land him.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Aug 29, 2014 9:35:11 GMT -5
Unless we start closing on a couple of quality guards for the 15 and 16 class, i'm far from convinced that our overall recruiting has really improved based upon what we put on the floor from an competitive basis. We can all get excited about the length skill and athleticsm of this current class and next years but i'm tired of a 3 guard team with little to no depth and limited experience which we have seen over the last 3 years. I'm not as concerned with the offense being impacted but the lack of depth has limited our defensive options with foul trouble, limiting pressure never mind even a minor injury to the backcourt. The problem the last few years has not been the guard play. There have been numerous posts about the lack of quality in our PF and C depth other than 1.5 yrs from Henry.
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tonyparker
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by tonyparker on Aug 29, 2014 9:35:44 GMT -5
Hearing a lot of SMU and Wake Forest buzz for Bryant Crawford.
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cheer48
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by cheer48 on Aug 29, 2014 9:45:48 GMT -5
I cant thank Patrick and Jeff enough for their loyalty.....almost moves an ancient Italian to tears.... Thanks You Guys, Thanks
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Post by dungeon ball on Aug 29, 2014 9:45:58 GMT -5
I'm saying Dozier to USCe if Hoyas don't land him. Frank. Martin. Hopefully it'a a Pat Jr / Esherick situation where daddy won't let him play for the man, regardless if that's his alma mater.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 11:15:41 GMT -5
Hearing a lot of SMU and Wake Forest buzz for Bryant Crawford. I really don't get the sense he wants to come to Gtown. How long have we been on him now as the hometown school with the Gonzaga Prep connection? Even with stud recruiting classes around him, a huge hole at his position, and a new practice facility he seems drawn to a bunch of lesser prestige programs? It may be time to start shifting attention to '16 guards..... Was saying this from the outset, but really wish we had picked up Josh Hart and/or Josh Reaves. Nonetheless, a very solid recruiting class coming in. Wouldnt be surprised if an eventual late guard prospect or a transfer emerges as an option. A lot of eggs being placed in the Tre Campbell basket too........
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Aug 29, 2014 12:36:00 GMT -5
To the guy complaining about recruiting guards, we are going to start 2 junior guards next year in DSR (25ish) and Trawick (75ish) who everyone is pretty high on. Before that, Starks (75ish), Clark (75ish), Freeman (McD-AA), Wright (McD-AA), Sapp (50ish), JWall (crazy find). We are bringing in LJ Peak and Tre Campbell both in the 25-75 range this year.
Our core recruiting classes are going to come from the 25-75 range. Every so often we might land a big dog (Monroe) to put us over the hump. Even last year's heralded class are basically 25-75 guys. Same with Govan and Derrickson from class of 2015.
The recruiting talent on an absolute basis has been good enough to win in my opinion. My quibbles begin with system, chemistry, eligibility, health, and maybe lack of developing depth. JTIII has proven over and over and over again that he can recruit. Misplaced attack, imho.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 29, 2014 12:58:16 GMT -5
Trawick will be a senior.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Aug 29, 2014 13:01:47 GMT -5
Trawick and Sapp were not 100 players based by the rankings.
Campbell is also not a top 100 player based on recruiting rankings.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Aug 29, 2014 13:02:04 GMT -5
There is no question that III can recruit and do so well. To me, the question is will he just do it very well, or can he pull out some truly great classes to make the Hoyas a real NCAA contender? The 2014 class could be anywhere from very solid to great. 2015 will be at least very solid, but I am hoping for somewhere between very good and great. If that does not happen, it is NOT a knock on III.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Aug 29, 2014 13:48:17 GMT -5
There is no question that III can recruit and do so well. To me, the question is will he just do it very well, or can he pull out some truly great classes to make the Hoyas a real NCAA contender? The 2014 class could be anywhere from very solid to great. 2015 will be at least very solid, but I am hoping for somewhere between very good and great. If that does not happen, it is NOT a knock on III. "Solid" is not enough for a program aspiring to compete on a national level consistently. You have to recruit better than that at least 3 out of every 4 years. We have missed the last 2 years with the exception of DSR (Cameron needs to make huge strides to qualify as a success), we have a great class this year and a very good start on next. But we need more to elevate this program to a consistent national contender.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Aug 29, 2014 15:48:50 GMT -5
To the guy complaining about recruiting guards, we are going to start 2 junior guards next year in DSR (25ish) and Trawick (75ish) who everyone is pretty high on. Before that, Starks (75ish), Clark (75ish), Freeman (McD-AA), Wright (McD-AA), Sapp (50ish), JWall (crazy find). We are bringing in LJ Peak and Tre Campbell both in the 25-75 range this year. Our core recruiting classes are going to come from the 25-75 range. Every so often we might land a big dog (Monroe) to put us over the hump. Even last year's heralded class are basically 25-75 guys. Same with Govan and Derrickson from class of 2015. The recruiting talent on an absolute basis has been good enough to win in my opinion. My quibbles begin with system, chemistry, eligibility, health, and maybe lack of developing depth. JTIII has proven over and over and over again that he can recruit. Misplaced attack, imho. Ranch you are making my point since Wright and Freeman left we have basically had 3 guards on this team. It worked out well last year when Trawick went down. Maybe you think our backcourt today is an improvement over last years. I don't see it. We lose Trawick next year and we haven't replaced him. Campbell better be far more ready to play than Markel was as a frosh. Is Peak really a guard I hope so jurys still out. They called Bowen a guard too. I don't look forward to our most consistent offensive player playing more with the ball in his hands and limiting his defense just to keep him on the court. I saw enough of that from our entire backourt last year that put far too much pressure on what was a limited front court to begin with. This is a guard oriented game far more so than 10 years ago let alone 20 to 30. I just would hate to see a couple of talented classes wasted by not having enough horses in the backcourt to reach the potential that this team may have.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Aug 29, 2014 16:08:37 GMT -5
Unless we start closing on a couple of quality guards for the 15 and 16 class, i'm far from convinced that our overall recruiting has really improved based upon what we put on the floor from an competitive basis. We can all get excited about the length skill and athleticsm of this current class and next years but i'm tired of a 3 guard team with little to no depth and limited experience which we have seen over the last 3 years. I'm not as concerned with the offense being impacted but the lack of depth has limited our defensive options with foul trouble, limiting pressure never mind even a minor injury to the backcourt. Can't say I agree with the idea that our guard recruiting needs to improve; over the last few years we've had Wright, Freeman, Clark, Starks and Smith-Rivera getting the bulk of minutes, all of whom have been at all-conference level. It's really the power forward and center positions that have been a struggle--as I've mentioned in the past the sum total of JT3's recruiting at Georgetown (~10 years worth now) has yielded exactly 3 seasons of what I would consider to be adequate or better high-major-starter-caliber production from power forwards or centers (Greg's 2 years and Henry's senior year). You can argue that Otto logged a lot of minutes at power forward (I'd counter that he's a SF and only played the 4 because the other options were so bad) or that somebody like Julian Vaughn was a high major caliber starter (I'd counter that his talent level should have made him a 7th or 8th man at best on a good Big East, ACC, SEC etc. team), but I can't see any argument that doesn't acknowledge that our recruitment of PF/C over the last decade has been a bit problematic. We've had a few classes that didn't have any true 4/5 guys at all (2005, 2007, 2013), we've had some guys that showed promise before and/or after their time at Georgetown but didn't play to that level while in blue and gray (Macklin, Benimon, Nate, Hopkins) and some who were projects that didn't quite pan out or at least haven't yet (Ayegba, Bolden, Hayes). Thankfully we've had a few transfers-in that have helped to kind of bandage things in Pat Jr., Vaughn and Smith. But the fact remains that our big man recruiting under JT3 has not yielded stellar results, and we've trotted out some front courts over the past few years that would have been mediocre in a lot of mid major leagues. The good news is that the 2014 and 2015 classes seem to be on the right track to turn it around, but only time will tell. Re: Crawford, I have no clue how it will end up but it does remind me a bit of Chris Wright's recruitment. Our staff liked Wright from the beginning, but Chris always seemed more interested in the ACC (specifically Duke IIRC). However Duke opted for Nolan Smith that year, and when CW saw that that offer wasn't coming, he took the next closest thing and committed to NC State. When Sendek got run out of town and Chris's options were a bit diminished, he took a longer look at Georgetown and realized it might be a good choice after all.... Crawford's recruitment seems to be taking a somewhat similar path, in that I think both he and the staff may have had other options at the tops of their wish list, but once those started to dry up or not look as appetizing anymore, both sides may end up realizing that it's a pretty good fit after all. At least that's what I'm hoping for, anyway. To those saying we need to take our recruiting to the next level and that "solid isn't good enough", sure. But IMO there is very little chance of it happening without us turning around our struggles in March. We simply do not have the cache of the Kentuckys or the UNCs or the Kansases of the world right now, and in the short-term moving to a weaker league and playing most of our games on a less popular network isn't helping either. We're not a world away from the strongest programs in the country right now, but we are not at a point where we can land one or more HS All Americans every year. And it isn't because III and staff aren't working hard enough, or they're not saying the right things to recruits, or not targeting the right guys, or anything like that. We just need to have more success on the floor to regain some momentum and buzz. Until then, the level that we're at--landing a mix of 4 and 3 star recruits each year with the occasional 1st-round caliber stud--is the best we can realistically hope for. The staff has worked really hard and done a great job considering the myriad of things working against them. I don't doubt they can get to the next level in recruiting, but I honestly don't see much chance that we get back to regularly pulling Top 30 recruits until we do some more winning in March. More post-season success yields more good/better recruits, which yield more post-season success, and so on. At this point I think our recruiting is roughly as good as it will get on its own, and we need that other piece of the puzzle to kick in and get us over the hump. And for what it's worth, I'd love to land 2 out of Dozier, Crawford, Bacon and Cheatham. Realistically, I'd be thrilled to land 1 of them. But if we don't, I still think we'll be OK. Quality guards are not nearly as hard to find as quality big guys. There are a ton of athletic guys in the 6'0-6'3 range who can handle and shoot every year. In fact, we (and a lot of other teams) have been bounced early in March several times by mid and low major squads featuring guys like that. It's just not that rare to find athletic guys at that height who have game, which is why good mid majors can often hold their own with or beat high major teams that are guard-oriented. Elite big guys--guys who are 6'9 or bigger, athletic, and skilled--THAT is hard to find. There just aren't that many people born with the genetics for that. For those who are biting their nails and saying "WHERE IS THE BACKUP PLAN IF WE MISS ON THESE GUARDS???".... I'd say, just relax for now. If it doesn't pan out I'm relatively confident that we'll find someone competent who is not currently on the radar (Ranch's "SRD" concept), and we'll also have DSR (1 more year) + Peak and Campbell (3 more years) to buy us some time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 1:27:38 GMT -5
Unless we start closing on a couple of quality guards for the 15 and 16 class, i'm far from convinced that our overall recruiting has really improved based upon what we put on the floor from an competitive basis. We can all get excited about the length skill and athleticsm of this current class and next years but i'm tired of a 3 guard team with little to no depth and limited experience which we have seen over the last 3 years. I'm not as concerned with the offense being impacted but the lack of depth has limited our defensive options with foul trouble, limiting pressure never mind even a minor injury to the backcourt. Can't say I agree with the idea that our guard recruiting needs to improve; over the last few years we've had Wright, Freeman, Clark, Starks and Smith-Rivera getting the bulk of minutes, all of whom have been at all-conference level. It's really the power forward and center positions that have been a struggle--as I've mentioned in the past the sum total of JT3's recruiting at Georgetown (~10 years worth now) has yielded exactly 3 seasons of what I would consider to be adequate or better high-major-starter-caliber production from power forwards or centers (Greg's 2 years and Henry's senior year). You can argue that Otto logged a lot of minutes at power forward (I'd counter that he's a SF and only played the 4 because the other options were so bad) or that somebody like Julian Vaughn was a high major caliber starter (I'd counter that his talent level should have made him a 7th or 8th man at best on a good Big East, ACC, SEC etc. team), but I can't see any argument that doesn't acknowledge that our recruitment of PF/C over the last decade has been a bit problematic. We've had a few classes that didn't have any true 4/5 guys at all (2005, 2007, 2013), we've had some guys that showed promise before and/or after their time at Georgetown but didn't play to that level while in blue and gray (Macklin, Benimon, Nate, Hopkins) and some who were projects that didn't quite pan out or at least haven't yet (Ayegba, Bolden, Hayes). Thankfully we've had a few transfers-in that have helped to kind of bandage things in Pat Jr., Vaughn and Smith. But the fact remains that our big man recruiting under JT3 has not yielded stellar results, and we've trotted out some front courts over the past few years that would have been mediocre in a lot of mid major leagues. The good news is that the 2014 and 2015 classes seem to be on the right track to turn it around, but only time will tell. Re: Crawford, I have no clue how it will end up but it does remind me a bit of Chris Wright's recruitment. Our staff liked Wright from the beginning, but Chris always seemed more interested in the ACC (specifically Duke IIRC). However Duke opted for Nolan Smith that year, and when CW saw that that offer wasn't coming, he took the next closest thing and committed to NC State. When Sendek got run out of town and Chris's options were a bit diminished, he took a longer look at Georgetown and realized it might be a good choice after all.... Crawford's recruitment seems to be taking a somewhat similar path, in that I think both he and the staff may have had other options at the tops of their wish list, but once those started to dry up or not look as appetizing anymore, both sides may end up realizing that it's a pretty good fit after all. At least that's what I'm hoping for, anyway. To those saying we need to take our recruiting to the next level and that "solid isn't good enough", sure. But IMO there is very little chance of it happening without us turning around our struggles in March. We simply do not have the cache of the Kentuckys or the UNCs or the Kansases of the world right now, and in the short-term moving to a weaker league and playing most of our games on a less popular network isn't helping either. We're not a world away from the strongest programs in the country right now, but we are not at a point where we can land one or more HS All Americans every year. And it isn't because III and staff aren't working hard enough, or they're not saying the right things to recruits, or not targeting the right guys, or anything like that. We just need to have more success on the floor to regain some momentum and buzz. Until then, the level that we're at--landing a mix of 4 and 3 star recruits each year with the occasional 1st-round caliber stud--is the best we can realistically hope for. The staff has worked really hard and done a great job considering the myriad of things working against them. I don't doubt they can get to the next level in recruiting, but I honestly don't see much chance that we get back to regularly pulling Top 30 recruits until we do some more winning in March. More post-season success yields more good/better recruits, which yield more post-season success, and so on. At this point I think our recruiting is roughly as good as it will get on its own, and we need that other piece of the puzzle to kick in and get us over the hump. And for what it's worth, I'd love to land 2 out of Dozier, Crawford, Bacon and Cheatham. Realistically, I'd be thrilled to land 1 of them. But if we don't, I still think we'll be OK. Quality guards are not nearly as hard to find as quality big guys. There are a ton of athletic guys in the 6'0-6'3 range who can handle and shoot every year. In fact, we (and a lot of other teams) have been bounced early in March several times by mid and low major squads featuring guys like that. It's just not that rare to find athletic guys at that height who have game, which is why good mid majors can often hold their own with or beat high major teams that are guard-oriented. Elite big guys--guys who are 6'9 or bigger, athletic, and skilled--THAT is hard to find. There just aren't that many people born with the genetics for that. For those who are biting their nails and saying "WHERE IS THE BACKUP PLAN IF WE MISS ON THESE GUARDS???".... I'd say, just relax for now. If it doesn't pan out I'm relatively confident that we'll find someone competent who is not currently on the radar (Ranch's "SRD" concept), and we'll also have DSR (1 more year) + Peak and Campbell (3 more years) to buy us some time. Good post. Well argued. On the Crawford angle, I think you might be right, but we havent gotten to the 'acceptance phase' with him yet. My sense is that he still seems more interested in the ACC as of right now. We'll see.... While I'd like some premier guards, that hasn't been the problem the last few years. You and other posters have pointed out the dearth of options at 4/5 and I think those are finally resolved with the '14 and '15 classes. However, I feel like the weak link in JT3's post FF teams has been that while the teams have been especially strong in some areas, there's always been an incompleteness in the roster that has really exposed the team. For as good as the Monroe-Freeman-Wright teams were, I always felt that there wasnt enough help for Monroe at the 4 position and this was a big hindrance. Same thing for the Otto-led team two seasons ago. Not having a solid center kept that team from being elite I think. Once teams realized to push up on the 3 point line and double Otto, we had nobody to take advantage inside. Anyway, the point is that no matter how good the classes are, the staff needs to keep fighting to add on additional talent, shore up every position, and provide depth. Not having those achilles heel on the roster is critical. That's why I'm still a little concerned about the guard situation although people have made some good points about how this void is easier to fill. Agreed, that all we need are a few post season wins and we'll have even better classes coming on top of some very good ones already. There's a lot of momentum otherwise, with the staff in place, the practice facility, good classes coming in....
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Aug 30, 2014 10:32:36 GMT -5
It's scary how our moment in recruiting has stalled. It used to be maybe even a month ago I see a new post in recruiting and I get excited thinking what good news could have been posted. Now I get nervous every time I see a post here wondering what new bad news has come down the pipe. Maybe it's just me, but the mood certainly has switched for me.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 30, 2014 10:50:47 GMT -5
It's scary how our moment in recruiting has stalled. It used to be maybe even a month ago I see a new post in recruiting and I get excited thinking what good news could have been posted. Now I get nervous every time I see a post here wondering what new bad news has come down the pipe. Maybe it's just me, but the mood certainly has switched for me. I remember when it was just so-so news. It's typical rollercoaster recruiting news. Recently, we had a very high high and now we're in the stalling no-news section. Recruiting news usually picks up this time of year.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 30, 2014 11:07:49 GMT -5
However, I feel like the weak link in JT3's post FF teams has been that while the teams have been especially strong in some areas, there's always been an incompleteness in the roster that has really exposed the team. For as good as the Monroe-Freeman-Wright teams were, I always felt that there wasnt enough help for Monroe at the 4 position and this was a big hindrance. Same thing for the Otto-led team two seasons ago. Not having a solid center kept that team from being elite I think. Once teams realized to push up on the 3 point line and double Otto, we had nobody to take advantage inside. Anyway, the point is that no matter how good the classes are, the staff needs to keep fighting to add on additional talent, shore up every position, and provide depth. Not having those achilles heel on the roster is critical. Agree. The keys are balance and depth. Since the FF, be it from early departures, injuries, ineligibility or just plain lack of talent, we've always had a hole in the roster or a piece that is holding back the others. But, it has never been on the guard position, i.e. we've always had some talent there. Depending on the year, our obvious holes have been from the 3 to the 5.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 31, 2014 12:07:45 GMT -5
Perhaps Crawford really wants to get out of the area. It isn't unusual or shocking for a kid to want to get away from home for college. If that's the case with him, there's little we'll be able to do about it, despite our best efforts.
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