hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Mar 30, 2011 10:58:31 GMT -5
From those stats alone, I would go with VCU: 2 wins vs. top 25 compared to none, 3 wins over top 50 compared to 1 and 7 wins over top 100 compared to 3. Sure, their losses were less impressive, but I don't think that should offset the stronger quality wins.
also TBird, I think you made a good point concerning the bubble teams from major conferences, and I think that only reinforces my thoughts that Colorado was the team most deserving. Again, using just that one team as the example, they beat Kansas State at home ... but also on the road. Then, just to clarify the point, they beat them in an neutral site in the conference tourney.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 30, 2011 11:13:54 GMT -5
ODUfan,
Drexel was counted by everyone as a bad loss for Louisville. They can't be a bad loss for Louisville but not a bad loss for VCU. And beating Drexel by 2 on a neutral court is not a quality win for VCU.
Similarly, if any major team lost to James Madison, that would be counted as a bad loss, so it should be counted as a bad loss for VCU, especially at home in late February. Heck, I consider Princeton's one-point loss at JMU in November as a bad loss for Princeton.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 30, 2011 11:38:10 GMT -5
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Mar 30, 2011 14:02:17 GMT -5
ODUfan, Drexel was counted by everyone as a bad loss for Louisville. They can't be a bad loss for Louisville but not a bad loss for VCU. And beating Drexel by 2 on a neutral court is not a quality win for VCU. Similarly, if any major team lost to James Madison, that would be counted as a bad loss, so it should be counted as a bad loss for VCU, especially at home in late February. Heck, I consider Princeton's one-point loss at JMU in November as a bad loss for Princeton. Thank you. (and I went to James Madison undergrad)
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DoctorHoya
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Post by DoctorHoya on Mar 30, 2011 19:15:45 GMT -5
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 30, 2011 22:26:18 GMT -5
Bilas was on PTI today and gave all of VCU's numbers. They are shooting almost 10% better from three during the NCAA Tournament than the regular season. He said that if they had shot that number for the year they would have lead the nation. Their defensive numbers during the regular season were in the 200's and now they are 2nd among tournament teams. I guess it's fun to blast Bilas but there wasn't a lot going in VCU's favor towards the end of the season other than their comeback against ODU in the CAA final that eventually fell short. . This is incorrect. The George Mason win in the CAA semfinal was a huge win. They killed a team on a 16 game winning streak, longest in the nation by 16 points. George Mason was the 8 seed. I think that is what got them in. Smart also said that there performance on neutral courts probably helped alot as the NCAA committee seems to like teams that perform well on neutral courts. This would include the CAA tournament, the preseason NIT, and winning 5 straight games in last years CIB tournament. I know it's fun to white knight Jay Bilas, but he's someone who can't admit he's ever wrong. The experts keep saying, oh, they are shooting lights out, 12 3s a game, like they have never done that. They shot 20 3s in a game last year in Shaka's first season. This team has guys who can flat out shoot: Slimey Jay Bilas can backpedal all he wants, but he did not watch a single game of this team, and did not do his research. And Virginia Tech is not that good this year. They've had some key injuries which have left them small and have forced them to put football players on the team. They would not have made a deep run. You have to have the talent and a established system to get this far. So you can't really say anyone can do it. That's Bilas speak.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 30, 2011 22:42:14 GMT -5
As I have said before, I like Jay Bilas. He gets paid to and should discuss the teams that are in the tournament, the teams that are out, where he agrees with the committee, and where he disagrees with the committee. Where Jay Bilas was wrong is not in having an opinion about VCU being and and someone else being out. That's his job. Where he was wrong was in literally yelling about this like it was the worst injustice in the history of college basketball. That is very much unlike him (except in games where he is one of the few commentators willing to call out officials when they completely blow calls). I think he is one of, if not the, best that ESPN has. But in ranting about this -- and not just immediately (which can be forgiven until he has time to reflect on the season), but for days -- he was very, very much in the wrong. I will continue to look forward to his analysis of college basketball and hope he learned not to be Edited Vitale anymore. (Also, I really enjoy that every time I use Vitale's full name, it gets censored. It's like Pro Boards can read my mind. )
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 31, 2011 13:30:57 GMT -5
As I have said before, I like Jay Bilas. He gets paid to and should discuss the teams that are in the tournament, the teams that are out, where he agrees with the committee, and where he disagrees with the committee. Where Jay Bilas was wrong is not in having an opinion about VCU being and and someone else being out. That's his job. Where he was wrong was in literally yelling about this like it was the worst injustice in the history of college basketball. That is very much unlike him (except in games where he is one of the few commentators willing to call out officials when they completely blow calls). I think he is one of, if not the, best that ESPN has. But in ranting about this -- and not just immediately (which can be forgiven until he has time to reflect on the season), but for days -- he was very, very much in the wrong. I will continue to look forward to his analysis of college basketball and hope he learned not to be Edited Vitale anymore. (Also, I really enjoy that every time I use Vitale's full name, it gets censored. It's like Pro Boards can read my mind. ) By Dick Vitale, did you mean Billy Packer?
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Post by odufan757 on Apr 1, 2011 4:32:19 GMT -5
The worst part is how disingenuous he is being about the whole deal. He says he was never criticizing VCU, he was criticizing the selection committee. Really? Then why did you feel the need to make the comment "Some teams don't pass the eye test? VCU doesn't pass the LAUGH test. This is a joke of a selection." He didn't need to say all that, but he did. Now VCU is laughing, Jay looks like an ass and he is completely unable and unwilling to admit he is wrong. He bashed UAB too and had no problem saying "see, look, I told you they didn't deserve to be in". But now VCU makes it to the Final 4 and he still sticks to his guns that they shouldn't be in even though they've played some of, if not THE best basketball in the entire tourney. Unreal. Some of the other ESPN "analysts" were just as bad. Joe Lunardi actually said "VCU couldn't guard me". There is a whole list of quotes floating somewhere around the CAAzone about what these ESPN and CBS analysts have said about VCU and it really does just make them all look like the know nothings that they really are. Not that any of you care, but my college frat brother and I run our own "bubble" website, www.tourneybubble.com, and we got more picks correct than Lunardi. We actually had VCU in. We only got Va Tech and Colorado wrong. These guys act like they know everything when the flat out facts are, they know very little about any team outside the ones they watch on ESPN. Just for an example, every single analyst, EVERY SINGLE ONE, has picked against VCU in EVERY SINGLE GAME THEY'VE PLAYED SO FAR IN THE TOURNEY. Experts indeed. For the record, I think Dukie V is the only one who has picked VCU to beat Butler. Go figure.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Apr 1, 2011 8:46:49 GMT -5
Not that any of you care, Impressive self awareness. hm
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Apr 1, 2011 9:41:04 GMT -5
You're losing more people with the rant than you're gaining.
A fair amount of people picked VCU over USC. After that, they played Georgetown, Purdue, Florida State, and Kansas. Really, honestly, if the fate of the Earth involved picking the winner of these games, would you really have picked VCU? Georgetown had been ranked in the top ten for part of the year, Kansas was the odds-on favorite to win the tourney, Purdue was playing in Chicago in what would be a de facto home game. The one game that may have been a toss-up - FSU - was the one which FSU had a chance to win at the end of regulation.
The beauty of the NCAA tourney is that it's a one-and-done tournament, and increased NBA defections mean that teams with senior leadership do better. And ESPN is full of self-important morons who know that they get more page views if they're more bombastic. Fans at Georgetown don't like it. Fans on Deadspin don't like it.
Most of the discussion here has supported you. But focus your complaints on Jay Bilas' inbox. Right now, you kind of sound like a whiny kid who got a hit in a baseball game and spends the next twenty minutes complaining that nobody thought he'd get on base.
Act like you've been here before.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Apr 1, 2011 10:08:44 GMT -5
Analysts typically know a lot about college basketball, Bilas included. However no analyst is particularly good at picking the outcomes of one and done tournament games. If they were good at predicting that sort of thing, they wouldn't need jobs as analysts because they could hang out in Vegas and make money all the time. Unfortunately, pretty much NO ONE (you included) is better than anyone else at picking these things. And if they're better, they're barely better and still frequently wrong.
This argument is idiotic.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 1, 2011 10:23:09 GMT -5
teams with senior leadership do better. If only that were universally true *sigh*
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Apr 1, 2011 10:59:12 GMT -5
Didn't a ton of analysts pick VCU to beat us? I know Gottlieb certainly did.
At the end of the day, I think people are making too much of Bilas's statements. Sure maybe he went overboard (but, then again, isn't that ESPN's marching orders for its analysts?). But just because VCU has played really well and won 4 games doesn't at all prove that they should have made the tournament in the first instance. One is a measure of what you've done in 4 games. The other is a measure of what you've done over the course of the season. VCU is hitting its peak right now, but just because it's ceiling is really high doesn't mean that it was a tournament worthy team.
Take your 2008-09 Hoyas. Their ceiling was extraordinarily high (beating UConn at UConn, drubbing Syracuse, beating Nova). But we didn't deserve to make the tournament that year. Obviously VCU is more deserving of an invite this year than we were that year, but it just goes to show you that mediocre or good teams can get hot and be great teams for a period of time. That doesn't change the nature of who the team is. They just got lucky/were clutch enough to be hot at the right time.
Give me the larger sample size every time. That's the better indication of who the best teams are.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 1, 2011 13:03:01 GMT -5
The worst part is how disingenuous he is being about the whole deal. He says he was never criticizing VCU, he was criticizing the selection committee. Really? Then why did you feel the need to make the comment "Some teams don't pass the eye test? VCU doesn't pass the LAUGH test. This is a joke of a selection." He didn't need to say all that, but he did. Now VCU is laughing, Jay looks like an ass and he is completely unable and unwilling to admit he is wrong. He bashed UAB too and had no problem saying "see, look, I told you they didn't deserve to be in". But now VCU makes it to the Final 4 and he still sticks to his guns that they shouldn't be in even though they've played some of, if not THE best basketball in the entire tourney. Unreal. Some of the other ESPN "analysts" were just as bad. Joe Lunardi actually said "VCU couldn't guard me". There is a whole list of quotes floating somewhere around the CAAzone about what these ESPN and CBS analysts have said about VCU and it really does just make them all look like the know nothings that they really are. Not that any of you care, but my college frat brother and I run our own "bubble" website, www.tourneybubble.com, and we got more picks correct than Lunardi. We actually had VCU in. We only got Va Tech and Colorado wrong. These guys act like they know everything when the flat out facts are, they know very little about any team outside the ones they watch on ESPN. Just for an example, every single analyst, EVERY SINGLE ONE, has picked against VCU in EVERY SINGLE GAME THEY'VE PLAYED SO FAR IN THE TOURNEY. Experts indeed. For the record, I think Dukie V is the only one who has picked VCU to beat Butler. Go figure. I agree. Jay Bilas acted like a complete donkey. And what's worse is he just can't admit he was wrong which would have ended the controversy a long time ago. He's keeps repeating nonsensical excuses like Lt. Gorman in Aliens towards Ripley in an effort to hold on to whatever control he has left as a basketball analyst. He basically trashed both VCU and the NCAA committee (who guess what actually watched VCU play the last two years) with his thugish insults. And now he's trying to play innocent victim so people will come to his rescue.
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russodj
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Post by russodj on Apr 1, 2011 13:20:50 GMT -5
The fact that VCU made this run to the FF does not mean they should have made the tournament and it's circular logic to think so. If you look at their regular season body of work they most likely didn't deserve to make the tournament, at best it was a questionable selection. Now clearly they have the ability to beat anyone but based on what they were judged on against peer teams Bilas and everyone else was stating they didn't deserve the bid. Once the post-season starts every team's record is 0-0. VCU making this run still doesn't mean the bid was deserved based on the regular season results.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Apr 1, 2011 15:05:35 GMT -5
The fact that VCU made this run to the FF does not mean they should have made the tournament and it's circular logic to think so. If you look at their regular season body of work they most likely didn't deserve to make the tournament, at best it was a questionable selection. Now clearly they have the ability to beat anyone but based on what they were judged on against peer teams Bilas and everyone else was stating they didn't deserve the bid. Once the post-season starts every team's record is 0-0. VCU making this run still doesn't mean the bid was deserved based on the regular season results. I don't know if VCU belonged in the tourney or not. Obviously, reasonable arguments can be made for both sides of that issue. I'm sure it's pretty close on the last few in, no matter how many teams make it. I do agree that VCU's performance does not indicate that Bilas argued incorrectly. It does indicate that VCU got hot at the best possible time, and that capable D1 players populate that team. For me, they are truly fun to watch.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 1, 2011 15:48:03 GMT -5
I don't really care who the committee feels is the 37th best at-large rather than the 38th best. No one should care other than the fans of the particular teams involved. 2 simple words for Va. Tech, Colorado, Alabama et. al. PLAY BETTER. Then you won't have to worry about it.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Apr 1, 2011 16:34:54 GMT -5
Bilas was on PTI today and gave all of VCU's numbers. They are shooting almost 10% better from three during the NCAA Tournament than the regular season. He said that if they had shot that number for the year they would have lead the nation. Their defensive numbers during the regular season were in the 200's and now they are 2nd among tournament teams. I guess it's fun to blast Bilas but there wasn't a lot going in VCU's favor towards the end of the season other than their comeback against ODU in the CAA final that eventually fell short. . This is incorrect. The George Mason win in the CAA semfinal was a huge win. They killed a team on a 16 game winning streak, longest in the nation by 16 points. George Mason was the 8 seed. I think that is what got them in. Smart also said that there performance on neutral courts probably helped alot as the NCAA committee seems to like teams that perform well on neutral courts. This would include the CAA tournament, the preseason NIT, and winning 5 straight games in last years CIB tournament. I know it's fun to white knight Jay Bilas, but he's someone who can't admit he's ever wrong. The experts keep saying, oh, they are shooting lights out, 12 3s a game, like they have never done that. They shot 20 3s in a game last year in Shaka's first season. This team has guys who can flat out shoot: Slimey Jay Bilas can backpedal all he wants, but he did not watch a single game of this team, and did not do his research. And Virginia Tech is not that good this year. They've had some key injuries which have left them small and have forced them to put football players on the team. They would not have made a deep run. You have to have the talent and a established system to get this far. So you can't really say anyone can do it. That's Bilas speak. I wonder if making 20 threes in a game last year is something the committee considered when selecting at-large teams for this year's tournament. Did Georgetown's rout vs Duke move them from the 7 line to the 6 line?
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 1, 2011 17:28:32 GMT -5
This is incorrect. The George Mason win in the CAA semfinal was a huge win. They killed a team on a 16 game winning streak, longest in the nation by 16 points. George Mason was the 8 seed. I think that is what got them in. Smart also said that there performance on neutral courts probably helped alot as the NCAA committee seems to like teams that perform well on neutral courts. This would include the CAA tournament, the preseason NIT, and winning 5 straight games in last years CIB tournament. I know it's fun to white knight Jay Bilas, but he's someone who can't admit he's ever wrong. The experts keep saying, oh, they are shooting lights out, 12 3s a game, like they have never done that. They shot 20 3s in a game last year in Shaka's first season. This team has guys who can flat out shoot: Slimey Jay Bilas can backpedal all he wants, but he did not watch a single game of this team, and did not do his research. And Virginia Tech is not that good this year. They've had some key injuries which have left them small and have forced them to put football players on the team. They would not have made a deep run. You have to have the talent and a established system to get this far. So you can't really say anyone can do it. That's Bilas speak. I wonder if making 20 threes in a game last year is something the committee considered when selecting at-large teams for this year's tournament. Did Georgetown's rout vs Duke move them from the 7 line to the 6 line? I never said it did. That's a strawman arguments. What the experts, Bilassssss, etc keep making it seem is that there shooting way above what they are capable of. You've alluded to the same thing in your post. And that's incorrect. 12 3s a game. 20 3s a game. This team is capable of shooting those numbers because they have the pure shooters.
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