Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 23, 2010 12:29:07 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 23, 2010 12:45:04 GMT -5
I'm guessing most of their holiday dinners are, um, interesting.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 23, 2010 12:48:24 GMT -5
Good point. ;D
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Aug 23, 2010 13:54:06 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepageThis should be required reading for those opposing the mosque. Where was the opposition to the project before Fox changed the narrative? Why is the Imam who appeared with Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes suddenly being questioned as having terrorist ties by Hannity, Dick Morris, and Bill O'Reilly?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 23, 2010 15:07:28 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepageThis should be required reading for those opposing the mosque. Where was the opposition to the project before Fox changed the narrative? Why is the Imam who appeared with Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes suddenly being questioned as having terrorist ties by Hannity, Dick Morris, and Bill O'Reilly? Assuming for moment that the mosque is an okay idea, is it really necessary for the US State Department to fund the Imam's trips abroad to solicit funds for building it? My Pastor needs a new air conditioning unit for our church, do you think the government should pay for a trip he could make to Europe to look for funding?
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 23, 2010 15:32:06 GMT -5
Assuming for moment that the mosque is an okay idea, is it really necessary for the US State Department to fund the Imam's trips abroad to solicit funds for building it? My Pastor needs a new air conditioning unit for our church, do you think the government should pay for a trip he could make to Europe to look for funding? Where did you read/hear about the State Dept sending the Imam abroad for the purpose you mention?
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Aug 23, 2010 15:39:20 GMT -5
Assuming for moment that the mosque is an okay idea, is it really necessary for the US State Department to fund the Imam's trips abroad to solicit funds for building it? My Pastor needs a new air conditioning unit for our church, do you think the government should pay for a trip he could make to Europe to look for funding? Where did you read/hear about the State Dept sending the Imam abroad for the purpose you mention? www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0810/Imams_Gulf_tour_sparks_controversy.html?showall"Crowley said Rauf has been reminded that he is barred from using the trip — which was scheduled before plans for the mosque were announced — for fundraising. "We do not expect him to fundraise," Crowley said." "We do not expect him to fundraise" is not exactly a ringing endorsement.
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Post by hoyawatcher on Aug 23, 2010 15:43:56 GMT -5
In fairness the trip supposedly has a firewall between this trip for the State Department and fund raising for the mosque. He is not supposed to be able to raise money on this trip. What happens in private dinners, etc. will certainly never be public but that was supposedly addressed.
In reality I hope this Imam is smart enough to know that taking $ from the middle east to build this thing will cause a second wave of firestorm. And yes there are differences between the islamic outlooks of Saudi Arabia versus Kuwait versus Qatar and heaven forbid money from Iran. But any would be a huge PR nightmare. Not necessarily illegal (not sure of Iran) but a problem nontheless.
Right now the trip is a problem for the Imam on a different level. He really needs to be here to calm the PR storm that has hit the project and the statements from his wife just aren't cutting it. Even the Washington Post today was talking about how the fact the Imam has been quiet during the protests has been a big problem.
I have always thought that the number of blocks from ground zero wasn't as big an issue as the process and PR aspects of actually engaging with the firefighters, families, etc. who are feeling aggrieved. Engage them meaningfully and the bulk of the resistance from the public goes away. Drive it down their throat behind a legal right and the concerns of sharia law, insensitivity, its a muslim power play, whatever will remain.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 23, 2010 15:50:03 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepageThis should be required reading for those opposing the mosque. Where was the opposition to the project before Fox changed the narrative? Why is the Imam who appeared with Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes suddenly being questioned as having terrorist ties by Hannity, Dick Morris, and Bill O'Reilly? How many people do you think even knew about the mosque until recently? Is your position that if one didn't oppose the mosque 8 months ago, he or she cannot oppose it now? You're a big fan of bright lines. Please provide a clear standard for now long a person must have been publicly against the mosque in order for us to consider his or her criticism. One month? Six months? One year?
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 23, 2010 16:10:23 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepageThis should be required reading for those opposing the mosque. Where was the opposition to the project before Fox changed the narrative? Why is the Imam who appeared with Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes suddenly being questioned as having terrorist ties by Hannity, Dick Morris, and Bill O'Reilly? How many people do you think even knew about the mosque until recently? Is your position that if one didn't oppose the mosque 8 months ago, he or she cannot oppose it now? You're a big fan of bright lines. Please provide a clear standard for now long a person must have been publicly against the mosque in order for us to consider his or her criticism. One month? Six months? One year? For as long as they've known about it. I am certain there were people who read about it in the NY Times and didn't care, but have since gotten all whipped into a frenzy by the "news" (yeah, right) media. If upon first hearing about it, someone says "Building this thing doesn't seem right to me," then fine, I don't agree with that person, but at least they had an opinion and it's been consistent. I do take issue with someone who heard about it, thought nothing of it, and then decided that it was the worst thing in the history of zoning decisions just because Hannity decided to talk about it.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Aug 23, 2010 16:16:04 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepageThis should be required reading for those opposing the mosque. Where was the opposition to the project before Fox changed the narrative? Why is the Imam who appeared with Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes suddenly being questioned as having terrorist ties by Hannity, Dick Morris, and Bill O'Reilly? How many people do you think even knew about the mosque until recently? Is your position that if one didn't oppose the mosque 8 months ago, he or she cannot oppose it now? You're a big fan of bright lines. Please provide a clear standard for now long a person must have been publicly against the mosque in order for us to consider his or her criticism. One month? Six months? One year? We'll answer that question when you tell us how many blocks away from gorund zero would be ok ;D
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 23, 2010 16:18:33 GMT -5
Protestors/satirists in NYC today have been very clear that they do not want the mosque built anywhere, much less a few blocks away from Ground Zero, and they have no timetable when it might be appropriate to build a community center in that spot.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 23, 2010 16:36:51 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepageThis should be required reading for those opposing the mosque. Where was the opposition to the project before Fox changed the narrative? Why is the Imam who appeared with Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes suddenly being questioned as having terrorist ties by Hannity, Dick Morris, and Bill O'Reilly? Thanks hoyanyr. I read that piece in the Times and am glad you linked it here. To put the "Ground Zero Mosque" in perspecitve, some have mentioned Pearl Harbor and how they believe it would be inappropriate for Japanese tourists to build something nearby. But the real comparison isn't with Japanese from Japan, it is with Japanese-Americans. They were tarred with the scar of Pearl Harbor just as Muslim-Americans are scarred with 9/11 today. Of course, most of the Japanese-Americans living on the West Coast in CA, OR and WA, were packed up and shipped off to concentration camps in places like N. Dakota. And their lands/farms were often confiscated. Japanese Americans in Hawaii... where, of course, Pearl Harbor is located ... did not suffer the same fate. Why? Honolulu Police Capt. John Burns, who later went on to become Gov. after Statehood, led a community effort to protect Japanese-Americans in Hawaii. They were so numerous and essential to the functioning of the Territory that Hawaii could not afford to send them away, and they were better assimilated into community life. Despite the inexcusable trampling of the rights of Japanese-Americans on the mainland (and to a lesser extent those in Hawaii), many young men still volunteered for the Army -- starting with a large contingent of Hawaii's Japanese-Americans. The 442nd Regiment, comprised entirely of Japanese-Americans, would never be sent to the Pacific theater because "they couldn't be trusted". Instead they were sent to Italy and then France where they were given the toughest, dirtiest, most dangerous missions... because they were "expendable". Despite all of that, The 442nd Combat Infantry group emerged as the most decorated combat unit of its size in the history of the United States Army. For its service in eight major campaigns in Italy and France, the 100th Battalion and 442nd Regimental Combat Team earned eight Presidential Unit Citations. Meanwhile, their family members were living in barracks, surrounded by barbed wire, guard towers, machine guns, and dogs. Today's Muslim-Americans had no more to do with 9/11 than the Japanese-Americans of Pearl Harbor. So why are they being asked to "be sensitive"? Their religion was hijacked by fanatics who distorted it for their own purposes. What does THAT have to do with Muslim-Americans? or indeed, the vast majority of Muslims all over the world? So WHY are they being asked to "stay away". We are all equal in America -- except you guys. Don't show your faces over here. It might offend some of the others. We need you to hide. Elsewhere. Far from Ground Zero. Oh, and by the way, many other mosques around the country are also being threatened. Asking Muslim-Americans to steer clear of GZ is essentially accusing them of having something to do with 9/11. "Be sensitive", "its too soon", and now Fox is adding... "and they are really planning a terrorist recruitment center and a headquarters for terror planning right at GZ." Based on what evidence exactly? Blatant fear mongering? When will this stop? How will it stop? When won't it be "too soon"? Why are they being treated "differently" at all? Do we really believe they are/were complicit? This is the time when Americans must stand up for our founding principles and INSIST that Muslim-Americans be treated the same as everyone else. If some of the families of those who were lost on 9/11 (which includes many Muslim-American families) are offended by a mosque near GZ that is unfortunate. But the solution is not to tell all Muslim-Americans that they must move away, hide away, be sensitive, understand. The solution will take leadership, honesty, education and understanding... on all sides. All we need to do is look at how the opponents are phrasing the issue: "The Ground Zero Mosque." It is NOT at Ground Zero. And it is NOT a Mosque. And clearly, it has NOTHING to do with recruiting terrorists and plotting new attacks. Are we so foolish? Gullible? Naive? Biased? that we fall for this kind of baseless attack on Muslim-Americans? People like Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Maybe some people don't like to think of it as "discrimination"... just as they didn't want to think of the WWII treatment of Japanese-Americans as "discrimination". But what happened to German-Americans? Italian-Americans? during the same time frame? Why were Japanese-Americans treated differently? Race? If we take a calm step back and look at what is going on... Americans who truly believe in the Constitution, Equal Rights, Fair play, and Freedom of Religion will move to embrace the Muslim-American community, not to shun them.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 23, 2010 16:51:28 GMT -5
How many people do you think even knew about the mosque until recently? Is your position that if one didn't oppose the mosque 8 months ago, he or she cannot oppose it now? You're a big fan of bright lines. Please provide a clear standard for now long a person must have been publicly against the mosque in order for us to consider his or her criticism. One month? Six months? One year? We'll answer that question when you tell us how many blocks away from gorund zero would be ok ;D Precisely.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 23, 2010 17:10:33 GMT -5
www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepageThis should be required reading for those opposing the mosque. Where was the opposition to the project before Fox changed the narrative? Why is the Imam who appeared with Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes suddenly being questioned as having terrorist ties by Hannity, Dick Morris, and Bill O'Reilly? Thanks hoyanyr. I read that piece in the Times and am glad you linked it here. To put the "Ground Zero Mosque" in perspecitve, some have mentioned Pearl Harbor and how they believe it would be inappropriate for Japanese tourists to build something nearby. But the real comparison isn't with Japanese from Japan, it is with Japanese-Americans. They were tarred with the scar of Pearl Harbor just as Muslim-Americans are scarred with 9/11 today. Of course, most of the Japanese-Americans living on the West Coast in CA, OR and WA, were packed up and shipped off to concentration camps in places like N. Dakota. And their lands/farms were often confiscated. Japanese Americans in Hawaii... where, of course, Pearl Harbor is located ... did not suffer the same fate. Why? Honolulu Police Capt. John Burns, who later went on to become Gov. after Statehood, led a community effort to protect Japanese-Americans in Hawaii. They were so numerous and essential to the functioning of the Territory that Hawaii could not afford to send them away, and they were better assimilated into community life. Despite the inexcusable trampling of the rights of Japanese-Americans on the mainland (and to a lesser extent those in Hawaii), many young men still volunteered for the Army -- starting with a large contingent of Hawaii's Japanese-Americans. The 442nd Regiment, comprised entirely of Japanese-Americans, would never be sent to the Pacific theater because "they couldn't be trusted". Instead they were sent to Italy and then France where they were given the toughest, dirtiest, most dangerous missions... because they were "expendable". Despite all of that, The 442nd Combat Infantry group emerged as the most decorated combat unit of its size in the history of the United States Army. For its service in eight major campaigns in Italy and France, the 100th Battalion and 442nd Regimental Combat Team earned eight Presidential Unit Citations. Meanwhile, their family members were living in barracks, surrounded by barbed wire, guard towers, machine guns, and dogs. Today's Muslim-Americans had no more to do with 9/11 than the Japanese-Americans of Pearl Harbor. So why are they being asked to "be sensitive"? Their religion was hijacked by fanatics who distorted it for their own purposes. What does THAT have to do with Muslim-Americans? or indeed, the vast majority of Muslims all over the world? So WHY are they being asked to "stay away". We are all equal in America -- except you guys. Don't show your faces over here. It might offend some of the others. We need you to hide. Elsewhere. Far from Ground Zero. Oh, and by the way, many other mosques around the country are also being threatened. Asking Muslim-Americans to steer clear of GZ is essentially accusing them of having something to do with 9/11. "Be sensitive", "its too soon", and now Fox is adding... "and they are really planning a terrorist recruitment center and a headquarters for terror planning right at GZ." Based on what evidence exactly? Blatant fear mongering? When will this stop? How will it stop? When won't it be "too soon"? Why are they being treated "differently" at all? Do we really believe they are/were complicit? This is the time when Americans must stand up for our founding principles and INSIST that Muslim-Americans be treated the same as everyone else. If some of the families of those who were lost on 9/11 (which includes many Muslim-American families) are offended by a mosque near GZ that is unfortunate. But the solution is not to tell all Muslim-Americans that they must move away, hide away, be sensitive, understand. The solution will take leadership, honesty, education and understanding... on all sides. All we need to do is look at how the opponents are phrasing the issue: "The Ground Zero Mosque." It is NOT at Ground Zero. And it is NOT a Mosque. And clearly, it has NOTHING to do with recruiting terrorists and plotting new attacks. Are we so foolish? Gullible? Naive? Biased? that we fall for this kind of baseless attack on Muslim-Americans? People like Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Maybe some people don't like to think of it as "discrimination"... just as they didn't want to think of the WWII treatment of Japanese-Americans as "discrimination". But what happened to German-Americans? Italian-Americans? during the same time frame? Why were Japanese-Americans treated differently? Race? If we take a calm step back and look at what is going on... Americans who truly believe in the Constitution, Equal Rights, Fair play, and Freedom of Religion will move to embrace the Muslim-American community, not to shun them. Let's see how many of the anti-Burlington Coat Factor Community Center folks on here actually have an intelligent response to anything you've said. I expect somewhere between zero and one with partial credit being awarded to anyone who opposes the thing while also addressing the fact that it is not at Ground Zero. Also, the lack of anything build at Ground Zero is a national disgrace. Anyone want to discuss that?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 23, 2010 17:16:09 GMT -5
Thanks hoyanyr. I read that piece in the Times and am glad you linked it here. To put the "Ground Zero Mosque" in perspecitve, some have mentioned Pearl Harbor and how they believe it would be inappropriate for Japanese tourists to build something nearby. But the real comparison isn't with Japanese from Japan, it is with Japanese-Americans. They were tarred with the scar of Pearl Harbor just as Muslim-Americans are scarred with 9/11 today. Of course, most of the Japanese-Americans living on the West Coast in CA, OR and WA, were packed up and shipped off to concentration camps in places like N. Dakota. And their lands/farms were often confiscated. Japanese Americans in Hawaii... where, of course, Pearl Harbor is located ... did not suffer the same fate. Why? Honolulu Police Capt. John Burns, who later went on to become Gov. after Statehood, led a community effort to protect Japanese-Americans in Hawaii. They were so numerous and essential to the functioning of the Territory that Hawaii could not afford to send them away, and they were better assimilated into community life. Despite the inexcusable trampling of the rights of Japanese-Americans on the mainland (and to a lesser extent those in Hawaii), many young men still volunteered for the Army -- starting with a large contingent of Hawaii's Japanese-Americans. The 442nd Regiment, comprised entirely of Japanese-Americans, would never be sent to the Pacific theater because "they couldn't be trusted". Instead they were sent to Italy and then France where they were given the toughest, dirtiest, most dangerous missions... because they were "expendable". Despite all of that, The 442nd Combat Infantry group emerged as the most decorated combat unit of its size in the history of the United States Army. For its service in eight major campaigns in Italy and France, the 100th Battalion and 442nd Regimental Combat Team earned eight Presidential Unit Citations. Meanwhile, their family members were living in barracks, surrounded by barbed wire, guard towers, machine guns, and dogs. Today's Muslim-Americans had no more to do with 9/11 than the Japanese-Americans of Pearl Harbor. So why are they being asked to "be sensitive"? Their religion was hijacked by fanatics who distorted it for their own purposes. What does THAT have to do with Muslim-Americans? or indeed, the vast majority of Muslims all over the world? So WHY are they being asked to "stay away". We are all equal in America -- except you guys. Don't show your faces over here. It might offend some of the others. We need you to hide. Elsewhere. Far from Ground Zero. Oh, and by the way, many other mosques around the country are also being threatened. Asking Muslim-Americans to steer clear of GZ is essentially accusing them of having something to do with 9/11. "Be sensitive", "its too soon", and now Fox is adding... "and they are really planning a terrorist recruitment center and a headquarters for terror planning right at GZ." Based on what evidence exactly? Blatant fear mongering? When will this stop? How will it stop? When won't it be "too soon"? Why are they being treated "differently" at all? Do we really believe they are/were complicit? This is the time when Americans must stand up for our founding principles and INSIST that Muslim-Americans be treated the same as everyone else. If some of the families of those who were lost on 9/11 (which includes many Muslim-American families) are offended by a mosque near GZ that is unfortunate. But the solution is not to tell all Muslim-Americans that they must move away, hide away, be sensitive, understand. The solution will take leadership, honesty, education and understanding... on all sides. All we need to do is look at how the opponents are phrasing the issue: "The Ground Zero Mosque." It is NOT at Ground Zero. And it is NOT a Mosque. And clearly, it has NOTHING to do with recruiting terrorists and plotting new attacks. Are we so foolish? Gullible? Naive? Biased? that we fall for this kind of baseless attack on Muslim-Americans? People like Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Maybe some people don't like to think of it as "discrimination"... just as they didn't want to think of the WWII treatment of Japanese-Americans as "discrimination". But what happened to German-Americans? Italian-Americans? during the same time frame? Why were Japanese-Americans treated differently? Race? If we take a calm step back and look at what is going on... Americans who truly believe in the Constitution, Equal Rights, Fair play, and Freedom of Religion will move to embrace the Muslim-American community, not to shun them. Let's see how many of the anti-Burlington Coat Factor Community Center folks on here actually have an intelligent response to anything you've said. I expect somewhere between zero and one with partial credit being awarded to anyone who opposes the thing while also addressing the fact that it is not at Ground Zero. Also, the lack of anything build at Ground Zero is a national disgrace. Anyone want to discuss that? Hey, I know, let's make an argument that the people who oppose the mosque are simply racist/bigoted/anti-Islamic/fill-in-the-blank-pejorative people who are incorrectly lumping all Muslims together, and then turn around and categorically demean all of them by stating that not one of them is intelligent enough to produce a coherent response.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 23, 2010 17:56:22 GMT -5
I am this Outraged!!!
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 23, 2010 19:20:04 GMT -5
Me too, but only because i couldnt find any of these sweet personal attacks i have been reading about,
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Aug 23, 2010 19:32:32 GMT -5
This I can get behind. It's not supposed to be a hole in the ground forever. We're supposed to have a giant tower that says "FU, AQ", hopefully with a little better design than the old WTC. Is it just Silverstein and his insurers/investors still fighting that's causing the delay?
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 23, 2010 20:29:32 GMT -5
This I can get behind. It's not supposed to be a hole in the ground forever. We're supposed to have a giant tower that says "FU, AQ", hopefully with a little better design than the old WTC. Is it just Silverstein and his insurers/investors still fighting that's causing the delay? on the news about this whole mosque BS, when ever they show ground zero i keep seeing what looks like two square pits in the middle of the old foundations that have black polished stone sides. Is this some monument that i did know about? I thought they were going to build on top of that site, or am i remembering the plan wrong?
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