prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Aug 19, 2010 19:38:03 GMT -5
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 19, 2010 20:30:20 GMT -5
"The only reason to oppose this mosque is anti-Islam discrimination. Nothing American or Patriotic about that." SirSaxa, you are flat out wrong and judgemental as hell. Gosh Ed, I didn't realize that you believe discrimination against Islam actually IS American and Patriotic. And typical of your posts, a solid, pristine and cogently presented argument supported by bullet proof logic. Thanks so much for your insightful contribution to the discussion, not to mention the obligatory, gratuitous ad hominem attack. Very persuasive.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by EasyEd on Aug 20, 2010 8:35:00 GMT -5
SirSaxa, I oppose the mosque not because I am anti-Islam but because it is too soon after 9-11 where extreme Islamicists killed over 2,500 people and I think it is just a stupid decision to build it there. If you think this is discrimination against Islam, so be it. If you judge me as not being American or Patriotic because of my views, again, so be it. But, as I stated, you are wrong and are judgemental.
As for your patronizing comment about my contributions to the discussion, I stated my views in few words to ensure there was no misunderstanding of where I stood on the issue. If you feel free to pass judgement on that, again so be it.
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HoyaNyr320
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Aug 20, 2010 9:49:49 GMT -5
SirSaxa, I oppose the mosque not because I am anti-Islam but because it is too soon after 9-11 where extreme Islamicists killed over 2,500 people and I think it is just a stupid decision to build it there. If you think this is discrimination against Islam, so be it. If you judge me as not being American or Patriotic because of my views, again, so be it. But, as I stated, you are wrong and are judgemental. As for your patronizing comment about my contributions to the discussion, I stated my views in few words to ensure there was no misunderstanding of where I stood on the issue. If you feel free to pass judgement on that, again so be it. So if it is just a matter of being too soon, how long should Muslims have to wait before they can pray in a mosque near Ground Zero? 5 more years? 10 more years? Also, during that time, what would you say is the appropriate buffering distance between Ground Zero and where a mosque may be built? We already have a mosque 4.5 blocks from Ground Zero, so is the dividing line somewhere between 2.5 blocks and 4.5 blocks? As you may see, this is a futile exercise. The fact is, this Muslim group went through all the proper channels to buy this space and filed all the appropriate paperwork. Their goal wasn't to go on some kind of political crusade, but instead to provide a space where anyone that lives or works in the community could go to work out, play basketball, and interact with others in the community. The mosque/prayer space is just one room in this multi-faceted facility and fills a need for New York City Muslims who work downtown and need a place to pray. I still don't understand why you think this Islamic community needs to steer clear of some imaginary buffer zone when it was Al Qaeda that attacked us and not Islam - which condemned the 9/11 attacks.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 20, 2010 10:11:35 GMT -5
This Muslim group went through all the proper channels to buy this space and filed all the appropriate paperwork. I agree. There is no legal obstacle to this project moving forward. I'm not sure anyone really has made that case, though, so I don't really get the point. I'm not so sure I agree. I've been reading some of what the imam, his wife and the developers have been saying over the history of this project and there's definitely (well, definitely in my opinion, anyway) some of that in there. But you just said that there was one a few blocks further, so if another place to pray is needed, what's a few more blocks, maybe perhaps in a building that wasn't hit during the attacks. How exactly did "Islam" condemn the attacks? Was it a statement from Mohammed? Cause that woulda' been something.
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Aug 20, 2010 10:16:02 GMT -5
Muslims waited less than a year before they could hold prayer services in the Pentagon. I didn't see any links to the articles about that. Yes, it is not a mosque but what the heck? Where is the outrage??
I just arrived in the Sinai Peninsula for a two-year assignment with the peacekeeping force. This issue is getting not much play out here, at least as far as I've seen.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 20, 2010 10:35:08 GMT -5
I just arrived in the Sinai Peninsula for a two-year assignment with the peacekeeping force. This issue is getting not much play out here, at least as far as I've seen. I imagine there may be some more pressing issues in that little corner of the world. Good luck and stay safe over there, fellow Hoya! (You have brought a Casual Hoya headband with you, I hope? )
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Aug 20, 2010 10:42:05 GMT -5
I have JTIII shirts and other GU gear. Hope to get picture in front of one the Blackhawks used for recon. wearing a JTIII shirt, but I need to get the rules on photograph on the camp first. Ironically, I was watching a live broadcast of George Mitchell's news conference re: the resumption of direct negotiation between Israel and PA when I posted the previous. TV coverage is going to be spotty for Hoya games but I am hoping Fancast can supply. AFN will get selected ESPN and Fox Sports broadcasts.
Shots fired at two would-be intruders over our fence line the other night. Intentions unknown, but assume them not to be good at 0200!
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 20, 2010 11:53:36 GMT -5
SirSaxa, I oppose the mosque not because I am anti-Islam but because it is too soon after 9-11 where extreme Islamicists killed over 2,500 people and I think it is just a stupid decision to build it there. If you think this is discrimination against Islam, so be it. If you judge me as not being American or Patriotic because of my views, again, so be it. But, as I stated, you are wrong and are judgemental. As for your patronizing comment about my contributions to the discussion, I stated my views in few words to ensure there was no misunderstanding of where I stood on the issue. If you feel free to pass judgement on that, again so be it. dis·crim·i·na·tion 1. an act or instance of discriminating. 2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.How does taking the position that any "house of worship" can be anywhere in the vicinity of the WTC -- EXCEPT for Islamic ones not qualify as "discrimination"? Moreover, it is "too soon", "too close"? Isn't that moral relativism? So if it 10 blocks away after 9 years, is that OK? How about 8 blocks after 10 years? What about the Muslims who were working in the WTC and were killed that day? What about the Islamic prayer room in the Pentagon? What about the 600,000 Muslims who live in the NYC metro area? Do you know how many people that is? Roughly the total population of cities such as Boston, Seattle, Las Vegas and -- yes -- even Washington DC? Don't they have rights too? How does it impact them? How is this anything other than blaming all Muslims for the actions of a few extremists who have totally distorted Islam for their own purposes? How is this entire national discussion anything other than continued attempts to demonize the Muslim community in America and around the world? One last thing.. the comparisons to Nazis and such from some prominent public figures? The real similarity is in the demonization of "the other"... in Nazi days it was Jews. In America today it seems to be "Muslims". Americans are supposed to believe in Religious freedom and in protecting the rights of minorities and individuals. Maybe we should start demonizing all Catholics because of the pedophilia of certain Priests?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 20, 2010 12:12:46 GMT -5
Maybe we should start demonizing all Catholics because of the pedophilia of certain Priests? I think quite a few people did.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 20, 2010 12:13:48 GMT -5
Opposition to the mosque is demonizing, intolerant, xenophobic, ignorant and so anti-American. Two blocks, four blocks, 10 years, 15? The terrorists win if this nonsense stands. They shall have succeeded in turning us against ourselves, against the very principles upon which this country was founded. The mosque dominates the discussion today. God forbid that some new issue arise in which your rights face abridgment because of popular opposition that runs contra to our laws. That "tyranny of the majority" about which de Tocqueville wrote and Madison referenced in The Federalist Papers applies here. History will look sadly upon this national discussion, as it has on other episodes of intolerance and bigotry in our country. Is it basketball season yet? bit.ly/bwLW4c
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by EasyEd on Aug 20, 2010 12:16:15 GMT -5
I hate all Muslims. I don't want them to be able to practice their religion anywhere in the U.S., particularly in New York. I discriminate against them for the purpose of sending them all back to Saudi Arabia. I acknowledge my inference behind the dictionary definition of discrimination is due to prejudging all Muslims based on the actions of a few. I'll now go to confession.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2010 12:23:00 GMT -5
Maybe we should start demonizing all Catholics because of the pedophilia of certain Priests? I think quite a few people did. Was it right to do so?
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The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by The Stig on Aug 20, 2010 12:50:43 GMT -5
Maybe we should start demonizing all Catholics because of the pedophilia of certain Priests? I think quite a few people did. And they were wrong to do so. I think most of those who did so were probably prejudiced against Catholics before the stories broke, and their demonizing of all Catholics over the actions of a few were just a new expression of previously held bigoted beliefs. Similarly, I think those who have demonized all Muslims for the actions of Al Qaeda were probably prejudiced against Muslims before 9/11 ever happened. 9/11 and events since then were just an excuse for them to give voice to their previously held bigoted beliefs. Note that I'm NOT saying that anti-mosque = anti-Muslim bigot. I'm talking about a certain subset of the anti-mosque crowd in this case.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 20, 2010 13:42:08 GMT -5
One has to wonder where folks were when planning/construction for a mosque began near the Flight 93 site in Shanksville, PA. That area is probably also unfamiliar to the provincials leading the charge against the NYC community center from the right.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 20, 2010 14:07:22 GMT -5
One has to wonder where folks were when planning/construction for a mosque began near the Flight 93 site in Shanksville, PA. That area is probably also unfamiliar to the provincials leading the charge against the NYC community center from the right. I don't think there is an actual mosque, is there? I think people were actually very, very upset that the shape of the memorial in Shanksville originally was (pretty untastefully, but probably unintentionally) very similar to that of the Islamic crescent. It also probably wasn't smart to call the memorial the "Crescent" of Embrace. My understanding is that the Park Service adjusted the shape to avoid the controversy, and called it the "Circle" of Embrace. Which is a pretty good idea all around. EDIT: At least that's what I remember. But years of beer and good memory do not go well together. Unless you are taking about something new and/or different.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Post by theexorcist on Aug 20, 2010 14:42:01 GMT -5
The Pentagon "Islamic prayer room" is part of a larger chapel that was reconstructed after 9/11 (as I recall, the chapel actually sits where the plane plowed into the Pentagon). If you're in D.C. on 9/11, I believe that the chapel is open to all and I recommend going there.
I would make the argument that this shows America's tolerance of all faiths, and that the primary reason that the proposed Cordoba House is running into problems is not because of racism or anti-Islamicism but because the proponents are showing a remarkable lack of sensitivity.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 20, 2010 17:57:46 GMT -5
SirSaxa, I oppose the mosque not because I am anti-Islam but because it is too soon after 9-11 where extreme Islamicists killed over 2,500 people and I think it is just a stupid decision to build it there. If you think this is discrimination against Islam, so be it. If you judge me as not being American or Patriotic because of my views, again, so be it. But, as I stated, you are wrong and are judgemental. As for your patronizing comment about my contributions to the discussion, I stated my views in few words to ensure there was no misunderstanding of where I stood on the issue. If you feel free to pass judgement on that, again so be it. So if it is just a matter of being too soon, how long should Muslims have to wait before they can pray in a mosque near Ground Zero? 5 more years? 10 more years? Also, during that time, what would you say is the appropriate buffering distance between Ground Zero and where a mosque may be built? We already have a mosque 4.5 blocks from Ground Zero, so is the dividing line somewhere between 2.5 blocks and 4.5 blocks? As you may see, this is a futile exercise. The fact is, this Muslim group went through all the proper channels to buy this space and filed all the appropriate paperwork. Their goal wasn't to go on some kind of political crusade, but instead to provide a space where anyone that lives or works in the community could go to work out, play basketball, and interact with others in the community. The mosque/prayer space is just one room in this multi-faceted facility and fills a need for New York City Muslims who work downtown and need a place to pray. I still don't understand why you think this Islamic community needs to steer clear of some imaginary buffer zone when it was Al Qaeda that attacked us and not Islam - which condemned the 9/11 attacks. Why do you continue to ask for specific distances or specific time frames? Isn't it sufficient to say this proposal, at this location, at this time, shouldn't go forward?
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 20, 2010 18:25:04 GMT -5
Not bad - 652 commas in one sentence.
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by kchoya on Aug 21, 2010 11:49:15 GMT -5
Not bad - 652 commas in one sentence. You still don't get it. I'm not surprised.
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