hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,603
|
Post by hoyatables on Aug 16, 2010 22:22:56 GMT -5
a German Bund museum next to Dachau. What do you think? no problem, right? You and Newt walk hand in hand down the path of intellectual dishonesty on this one, don't you? (Though not too hand in hand, of course.) Repeat after me -- basic analogy 101 here: Nazi is to the Holocaust is NOT the same as Muslim is to 9-11. The proper analogy is Nazi is to the Holocaust as Al Qaeda is to 9-11. Building a mosque next to ground zero is not the same as putting a Nazi museum next to Auschwitz or a Imperial Japanese exhibit next to Pearl Harbor. It's just not the same.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,599
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Aug 16, 2010 22:27:08 GMT -5
Fine if the rest of the country does not want a mosque built there. How many of them have mosques in their home towns? There aren't any in Wasilla for example, notwithstanding its sophisticated former mayor. My suspicion is most of them would raise a stink if one was planned given how this appears to be a fight against Islam as much as anything else. I don't know about Wasilla, but as for Temecula, Murfreesboro, and Sheboygan... www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html
|
|
|
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 16, 2010 22:33:28 GMT -5
|
|
Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,908
|
Post by Filo on Aug 16, 2010 22:37:21 GMT -5
It's a sensitive topic and a sensitive location -- there are easier ways to go about showing you are a peaceful religion and abhor the terrorist acts committed. Why go about this process by undertaking a project that will Edited off a bunch of people and undermine your intentions, whether the criticism is warranted or not?
And the mayor's quotes are not even remotely on point. I haven't seen any one saying that we should trample the Constitution and prohibit the project.
|
|
|
Post by hoyawatcher on Aug 16, 2010 22:39:42 GMT -5
First - every poll I have seen is pretty clear that the majority of Americans, NYkers, etc. all agree there is a legal right to build the Mosque where ever they want and where ever they can get approval in NYC. I will point out that there is no legal right to build a christian or jewish or budhist or anyh other church in middle eastern countries but that is not germain to the NY legal right. It is germain to the refusal of some to try to understand why the appropriateness of this decision by the Imam or the perception that this is a power play to essentially shove it down folks throats because they can. If you act that way don't be surprised when public opinion, politicians and a broad range of the political spectrum push back.
In that vein, the question of how far is not the appropriate question. IMHO the appropriate question is how did the site get selected and did a broad range of sensitivities, perspectives, and concerns get adequately heard, understood, dealt with and given credence. Especially in the context of a religious conversation ostensibly being built to "bring people together".
In that context I would ask why does the Mosque need to be 2 blocks from WTC? What is the difference for them to move it some distance after a conversation with the families and other aggrieved parties? If the Imam had made that effort I think he comes off as a true religious healer and I don't care where they put it. When he says one thing and doesn't follow through all he does is give credence to the view that this is an Islamic power play. I will go back to the Pope who got the sensibility and this guy who doesn't seem to care. Now I am not saying that he has to follow the Pope and cancel the thing alltogether - but there should be a process of interaction and discussion. Not a hiding behind his recognized legal right to do something.
|
|
|
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 16, 2010 22:44:05 GMT -5
Filo - they largely cleared the process before the recent uproar and, during that time, some conservatives, including Laura Ingraham, had given them their blessing. This recent firestorm and undue attention likely caught them by surprise.
Could they be more pragmatic about things? I guess, but that need for pragmatism has only arisen recently when it became clear that folks outside of NY could not tolerate the religious center in NY. Such an outcome would also Edited off a bunch of people.
|
|
The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,844
|
Post by The Stig on Aug 16, 2010 22:51:34 GMT -5
So if we can't have any religious buildings in an area that has been attacked by that religion's extremists, I guess we have to tear down all the Catholic churches in Omagh, Enniskillen, and so many other places in Northern Ireland.
Really, this whole anti-Muslim backlash (and let's not pretend that it's anything else) over this issue is damaging and potentially dangerous to America. We can't eliminate Al Qaeda without the active support of moderate Muslims around the world. If we alienate the moderate Muslims in our own country, how on earth are we supposed to win them over in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan? Moderate Muslims are our most valuable potential allies in our fight against Al Qaeda, but instead of welcoming their message of reconciliation people want to flip them the bird, punch them in the gut, and push them straight into Osama's hands.
|
|
|
Post by hoyawatcher on Aug 16, 2010 22:52:51 GMT -5
|
|
Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
|
Post by Elvado on Aug 17, 2010 5:42:51 GMT -5
a German Bund museum next to Dachau. What do you think? no problem, right? You and Newt walk hand in hand down the path of intellectual dishonesty on this one, don't you? (Though not too hand in hand, of course.) Repeat after me -- basic analogy 101 here: Nazi is to the Holocaust is NOT the same as Muslim is to 9-11. The proper analogy is Nazi is to the Holocaust as Al Qaeda is to 9-11. Building a mosque next to ground zero is not the same as putting a Nazi museum next to Auschwitz or a Imperial Japanese exhibit next to Pearl Harbor. It's just not the same. And you walk down the path of willful idiocy. I did not say Nazi museum. The Bund is not the same thing as the Nazi party.. Kind of like a German cultural Center. But why let accuracy get in the way?
|
|
TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
|
Post by TBird41 on Aug 17, 2010 5:47:47 GMT -5
ON EDIT: I suppose I don't have any problem with people expressing their preferences as to whether it should be there or not as a matter of taste -- they are free to do so (and in so doing express what I consider short-sightedness but what they consider to be prudence). And if perhaps they had handled this issue in an appropriate and dignified manner (i.e. through direct discussions with the center suggesting an alternative location, etc etc) that was respectful of the organization's legitimacy and rights, then I would also understand the compromise position. But at this point the issue has become so inflamed that I stubbornly oppose any efforts to compromise because of the message and precedent that it suggests -- that the tyranny of the majority and the court of public opinion can overrule the clear rule of law. Gov. Patterson offered to help them find a spot that wasn't so inflammatory. He was quickly rejected. It seems to me that was a missed opportunity. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/10/ny-governor-offers-help-moving-ground-zero-mosque/www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/gov-paterson-calls-out-mosque.html
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,450
|
Post by TC on Aug 17, 2010 8:26:42 GMT -5
This is not an issue of the "noise machine on the right". Polls are saying 60+ % of democrats say the Mosque shouldn't be built there. Not that they don't have a right to but that it shouldn't be built there. Unless 60+ % of democrats are part of the noise machine of the right that is not correct. I think 60% of Democrats would oppose a Ground Zero Burlington Coat Factory being built there as well, but no one is demagoguing that. This is totally a right wing noise machine issue.
|
|
|
Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Aug 17, 2010 8:28:26 GMT -5
here's my thing. The only reason people think it's in poor taste is because they're associating all Muslims with 9-11. Moving the mosque legitimizes that view. It shouldn't be in poor taste to have a mosque there and people shouldn't be having a problem with it being there. Moving it basically says yup you're right all Muslims are terrorists. I'm simplifying a little bit, but that's what we do in this day and age.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 8:34:44 GMT -5
You and Newt walk hand in hand down the path of intellectual dishonesty on this one, don't you? (Though not too hand in hand, of course.) Repeat after me -- basic analogy 101 here: Nazi is to the Holocaust is NOT the same as Muslim is to 9-11. The proper analogy is Nazi is to the Holocaust as Al Qaeda is to 9-11. Building a mosque next to ground zero is not the same as putting a Nazi museum next to Auschwitz or a Imperial Japanese exhibit next to Pearl Harbor. It's just not the same. And you walk down the path of willful idiocy. I did not say Nazi museum. The Bund is not the same thing as the Nazi party.. Kind of like a German cultural Center. But why let accuracy get in the way? A German Bund Museum would in no way be equivalent to a German Cultural Center - it's all about Nazis: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_BundSorry for letting accuracy get in the way.
|
|
theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
|
Post by theexorcist on Aug 17, 2010 8:41:49 GMT -5
Godwin's law - mosque gets built.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,450
|
Post by TC on Aug 17, 2010 8:56:25 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks that Romney has increased his stock just by keeping his mouth shut during this nonsense?
Edit: never mind, he waded into the doo doo and opposes it too.
|
|
hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,603
|
Post by hoyatables on Aug 17, 2010 9:24:11 GMT -5
You and Newt walk hand in hand down the path of intellectual dishonesty on this one, don't you? (Though not too hand in hand, of course.) Repeat after me -- basic analogy 101 here: Nazi is to the Holocaust is NOT the same as Muslim is to 9-11. The proper analogy is Nazi is to the Holocaust as Al Qaeda is to 9-11. Building a mosque next to ground zero is not the same as putting a Nazi museum next to Auschwitz or a Imperial Japanese exhibit next to Pearl Harbor. It's just not the same. And you walk down the path of willful idiocy. I did not say Nazi museum. The Bund is not the same thing as the Nazi party.. Kind of like a German cultural Center. But why let accuracy get in the way? Forgive me, I was pretty sure you were referring to the Bund, which was the pro-Nazi party in the US prior to WWII.
|
|
kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
Posts: 9,934
|
Post by kchoya on Aug 17, 2010 9:51:05 GMT -5
Especially when you can move the project a couple/several blocks and become a hero. Again. Can someone PLEASE tell me where the line should be drawn? Are we really saying 2 blocks = bad, 4 blocks = good? Why? Why does there have to be a bright line? The debate is about this particular proposal. If there's a proposal for a different location, then you evaluate that. Your need for a boundary is a red herring.
|
|
|
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Aug 17, 2010 10:02:27 GMT -5
The problem, kc, is that the evidence we have about other locations is that they will want votes/polls on that too. Sheboygan, for example, is not sacred ground, much less Murfreesboro. Pretty soon, you're left with a situation where there simply cannot be any new construction of mosques or affiliated community centers.
|
|
TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,450
|
Post by TC on Aug 17, 2010 10:04:14 GMT -5
How do they know how to counter-propose to your satisfaction if you don't give arbitrary lines for your bill of attainder?
|
|
kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
Posts: 9,934
|
Post by kchoya on Aug 17, 2010 10:09:38 GMT -5
The problem, kc, is that the evidence we have about other locations is that they will want votes/polls on that too. Sheboygan, for example, is not sacred ground, much less Murfreesboro. Pretty soon, you're left with a situation where there simply cannot be any new construction of mosques or affiliated community centers. Really? You think we're going to ban construction/development of all such centers? Such a straw man...
|
|