A Jew's View of Catholic Problem

[EasyEd]

Interesting article by a Jewish man in Cleveland on the anti-Catholic bias in the media in regards to pedophelia.

fratres.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/redemption-comes-through-the-jews-jewish-businessman-sam-miller-whaps-anti-catholic-bias-in-news-media-full-text/

[SoCalHoya]

Thanks for providing the link. Interesting article. I'd always been aware that other religions had struggled with this sort of scandal (e.g. the Presbyterian pastor in my home town ran off with a church member, leaving his wife and kids without a provider and the church with about $250k in bills for his gambling and womanizing), but did not realize that, by comparison to other faith traditions, the Catholic Church has not been AS negligent as it has been characterized in the news.

[Nevada Hoya]

I guess we need some perspective and Mr. Miller gave us some. But let's continue to clean our house; one child molester is too much, and one bishop who looks the other way is too much also. That being said there appears to be some bias from both sides towards the Catholic church. One does not need to go any farther than the WaPo On Faith and read the replies of people; both neo-atheists and conservative Christians dump on the Catholic Church.

[theexorcist]

The problem isn't the abuse. It's that:

1. Almost every single spokesperson seems determined to spray gasoline on the fire. NO, it's not the same as persecution of Jews, and stop trying to equivocate by saying that some of it was homosexuality, not pedophilia.

2. The Catholic Church knew that there were pedophiles and, rather than kick them out or putting them on the spiritual equivalent of desk duty, they placed them in other parishes without any restrictions.

This matters because everything comes back to Rome. The Lutheran Synod doesn't assign pastors - the Southern Baptists hold a convention as equal members. Not Catholics. Everything the Church does is on the authority of the Pope as spokesman for God- centralized control, Catholics assert, is a great thing. The Church adheres to centralized training of priests and assignment of them.

When there's one pastor at a nondenominational church who sleeps with his secretary while misappropriating funds, that church has a problem. When priests constantly rape little boys and the Church in Ireland makes them sign confidentiality agreements, then Rome's still responsible - either the Irish Church didn't let them know (a breakdown in communication which is the responsibility of Rome) or Rome knew and didn't do anything. While kids were getting raped.

I'm sick of everyone trying to throw this stuff under the rug and blame anti-Catholicism. Yes, atheists and other Christians are dumping on the Catholic Church, and they have a right to, because this should have been addressed years ago and the Church is fighting it kicking and screaming. Christopher Hitchens, who does hate Catholicism along with every other religion, can be free to be as prejudiced as he darn well pleases since there's no defense here. There are people who are anti-Catholic, and this scandal is giving them fuel for their prejudices for years. And the way to fix it is to air out the scandal and kill the roots - not to let it fester.

[The Stig]

Apr 14, 2010 21:05:13 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

1. Almost every single spokesperson seems determined to spray gasoline on the fire. NO, it's not the same as persecution of Jews, and stop trying to equivocate by saying that some of it was homosexuality, not pedophilia.

This.

The words in this scandal that have infuriated me the most weren't written by journalists, they were written and spoken by high level Vatican officials, including the man who later became the current Pope. I'm sorry, but you just can't blame the media for words that came directly out of a Vatican spokesman's mouth.

Throughout this whole scandal the Catholic Church leadership has come across as an organization that is completely incapable of acknowledging that it has made a mistake or done anything wrong. If something happens, they simply cannot believe that it could possibly be their fault, therefore it MUST be somebody else's fault. Acknowledging one's own sins is an integral part of Catholicism, but the Church's leadership seems incapable of acknowledging its own sins.

I also think that criticizing the Catholic Church leadership doesn't make one anti-Catholic. I don't think easyed is anti-American, even though he criticizes the American government all the time on this board. So why should he think that I'm anti-Catholic, just because I criticize the Catholic Church's leadership?

The reality is that the Catholic Church's leaders are doing a lot of harm to an otherwise great religion. The article is right that Catholicism does a heck of a lot of good for our society. I don't think any other religion out there does more to help those beyond its adherents. This scandal certainly hasn't diminished my great respect for everyday Catholics, and it didn't prevent me from encouraging a very close lifelong friend to convert to Catholicism. It's very sad that all those good works have been obscured by the Church leaders' missteps, but the leaders have nobody to blame for that but themselves.

Instead of blaming others for its problems, the Vatican needs to realize that it made some major mistakes in dealing with this crisis. They need to acknowledge and apologize for those mistakes, and put concrete measures in place to makes sure they are never repeated. When and only when they've done that, we can move on from this fiasco.

[SirSaxa]

Apr 15, 2010 0:45:11 GMT -5 The Stig said:

Instead of blaming others for its problems, the Vatican needs to realize that it made some major mistakes in dealing with this crisis. They need to acknowledge and apologize for those mistakes, and put concrete measures in place to makes sure they are never repeated. When and only when they've done that, we can move on from this fiasco.

That is the key point of this entire crisis. The Church continues to refuse to acknowledge it -- and it alone -- is responsible.

Blaming the media? If not for the media we would not be aware of the problem and more and more kids would be victims. The media did not create this crisis. The Church created its own crisis by its actions and its inaction in dealing with the reality of pedophilia in its midst -- enabling it initially and even enabling it to continue unrevealed by consciously and intentionally moving priests to new locations with new innocent victims.

Comparing this to a Methodist Minister having an affair with an adult Parishoner is absolutely absurd.
Adultery is a moral issue between adults.
Pedophilia is a crime AND it is the worst kind of betrayal of the trust that parishoners and their innocent, trusting children place in the Church.

A few years back the Bishop of Baltimore wrote an OpEd claiming the Church was being persecuted. He said if this happened in the Boy Scouts it would not be news. How clueless can one be?

Any large group of people -- Priests, Scout Leaders, Rabbis, Ministers, teachers, any group -- can and will have some bad apples. That is understandable.

The scandal in this case is not the occurrence of pedophilia, it is the Coverup - a conspiracy to protect the Church from the consequences of a pattern of behavior among its clergy around the world. Denial, moving priests around, enabling them to prey on new victims, accusing the victims of lying, blaming the victims, stonewalling civil authorities, ignoring the problem and hoping it will go away -- and now, the standard defense of those who refuse to acknowledge their own responsibility -- Blame the Media!

All one really needs to do is to ask yourself.. what would Jesus Christ have done about this issue if he were here today? What would he do if he were Pope, and he heard about this today?

Would he deny? Would he move his Priests around? Would he blame the children? Would be blame the media? Would he compare it to the persecution of the Jews?

[Nevada Hoya]

Another significant fallout from this whole mess is that the Bishops (Pope?) have lost their moral imperative. If they are excusing some pedophile and sending him to another parish and covering the whole thing up, how can they ever talk about issues of morals again and be taken seriously. The young people are perceptive in seeing this hypocrisy. Consequently, a lot of young people are leaving the Church over this issue.

[hoya9797]

Apr 14, 2010 21:05:13 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

The problem isn't the abuse. It's that:

1. Almost every single spokesperson seems determined to spray gasoline on the fire. NO, it's not the same as persecution of Jews, and stop trying to equivocate by saying that some of it was homosexuality, not pedophilia.

2. The Catholic Church knew that there were pedophiles and, rather than kick them out or putting them on the spiritual equivalent of desk duty, they placed them in other parishes without any restrictions.

This matters because everything comes back to Rome. The Lutheran Synod doesn't assign pastors - the Southern Baptists hold a convention as equal members. Not Catholics. Everything the Church does is on the authority of the Pope as spokesman for God- centralized control, Catholics assert, is a great thing. The Church adheres to centralized training of priests and assignment of them.

When there's one pastor at a nondenominational church who sleeps with his secretary while misappropriating funds, that church has a problem. When priests constantly rape little boys and the Church in Ireland makes them sign confidentiality agreements, then Rome's still responsible - either the Irish Church didn't let them know (a breakdown in communication which is the responsibility of Rome) or Rome knew and didn't do anything. While kids were getting raped.

I'm sick of everyone trying to throw this stuff under the rug and blame anti-Catholicism. Yes, atheists and other Christians are dumping on the Catholic Church, and they have a right to, because this should have been addressed years ago and the Church is fighting it kicking and screaming. Christopher Hitchens, who does hate Catholicism along with every other religion, can be free to be as prejudiced as he darn well pleases since there's no defense here. There are people who are anti-Catholic, and this scandal is giving them fuel for their prejudices for years. And the way to fix it is to air out the scandal and kill the roots - not to let it fester.

Check out this beauty from the Bishop of Tenerife -

Alvarez warned that many children “deliberately provoked adults into abusing them and adults needed to be on their guard” to avoid entrapment.

www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000009/0/16724/tenerife-article.html

Nice. If I wasn't already finished with religion, I'm pretty sure buffoons like this who try to claim moral authority would have driven me out.

[RusskyHoya]

An interesting and personal reflection on the topic from a doctoral candidate in theology at Georgetown: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505072.html

[MassHoya]

One of the earliest disclosures of this problem was done by a Georgetown Alum, Jason Berry, CAS '71, in his 1992 book Deliver Us From Evil. Many of the things he talks about have not changed.

[thebin]

Apr 15, 2010 8:36:28 GMT -5 SirSaxa said:

Apr 15, 2010 0:45:11 GMT -5 The Stig said:

Instead of blaming others for its problems, the Vatican needs to realize that it made some major mistakes in dealing with this crisis. They need to acknowledge and apologize for those mistakes, and put concrete measures in place to makes sure they are never repeated. When and only when they've done that, we can move on from this fiasco.

That is the key point of this entire crisis. The Church continues to refuse to acknowledge it -- and it alone -- is responsible.

Blaming the media? If not for the media we would not be aware of the problem and more and more kids would be victims. The media did not create this crisis. The Church created its own crisis by its actions and its inaction in dealing with the reality of pedophilia in its midst -- enabling it initially and even enabling it to continue unrevealed by consciously and intentionally moving priests to new locations with new innocent victims.

Comparing this to a Methodist Minister having an affair with an adult Parishoner is absolutely absurd.
Adultery is a moral issue between adults.
Pedophilia is a crime AND it is the worst kind of betrayal of the trust that parishoners and their innocent, trusting children place in the Church.

A few years back the Bishop of Baltimore wrote an OpEd claiming the Church was being persecuted. He said if this happened in the Boy Scouts it would not be news. How clueless can one be?

Any large group of people -- Priests, Scout Leaders, Rabbis, Ministers, teachers, any group -- can and will have some bad apples. That is understandable.

The scandal in this case is not the occurrence of pedophilia, it is the Coverup - a conspiracy to protect the Church from the consequences of a pattern of behavior among its clergy around the world. Denial, moving priests around, enabling them to prey on new victims, accusing the victims of lying, blaming the victims, stonewalling civil authorities, ignoring the problem and hoping it will go away -- and now, the standard defense of those who refuse to acknowledge their own responsibility -- Blame the Media!

All one really needs to do is to ask yourself.. what would Jesus Christ have done about this issue if he were here today? What would he do if he were Pope, and he heard about this today?

Would he deny? Would he move his Priests around? Would he blame the children? Would be blame the media? Would he compare it to the persecution of the Jews?

I can't better this as a version of where I am on this issue so i'll just add....agreed in full.

I guess there is one thing I can add. For those of you Catholics who are in defensive mode, circling the wagons as it were. I'll say on the one hand I do get it on one level. There is something amiss in how the Catholic church seems to be just a bit too soft of a target. It does anger me that the only major religious group that the MSM has the guts to go after is the RC church, a relatively gutless decision given their meekness on the far more widespread dangers that institutionalized Islam (in several of its forms) presents to our way of life....BUT.....BUT..... I also have to add that it is the Cover-up indeed which has pushed me over the edge. I've considered myself an atheist for years now. But having grown up Catholic and married to the same, I always assumed that for family's sake I would probably assent to baptizing my children, for tradition if no other reason. I will no longer consent, I can no longer consent. And it is the Cover-up, in which Joseph Ratzinger played no small role, that has driven me to this irreversible place.

So next time you reflexively defend the Church I too grew up in, realize that the defensiveness and the bureaucratic ass-covering has driven this life-long Jesuit school attending Catholic and his progeny out for good. Surely there are many thousands more like me.

[DFW HOYA]

Apr 22, 2010 12:19:30 GMT -5 thebin said:

So next time you reflexively defend the Church I too grew up in, realize that the defensiveness and the bureaucratic ass-covering has driven this life-long Jesuit school attending Catholic and his progeny out for good. Surely there are many thousands more like me.

Hopefully not. The Church is still growing because the message is still more important than the bureaucracy, which is a poor excuse for leaving it anyway. It's like saying you're no longer American because you don't like the President.

[EasyEd]

In this country (I repeat, in this country) the Catholic Church hierarchy has come clean and instituted reforms to help ensure priests are not protected but reported to the proper authorities. They have instituted requirements that all who deal with youth must take a training course before dealing with youths. They have apologized for the past horrendous sins of priests and made cash settlements to victims. I'm not sure what more can be done in this country. I will grant these actions would not have been taken were it not for the intense media attention.

By taking these actions it does not excuse what was done in the past but it certainly lets the country know they are dead serious about the future and the protection of youth.

With the overall Roman church their hierarchy is only slowly coming to the point of facing the problem and it's again the media who are trying to force it to take actions similar to that of the church in this country. With continued media pressure I'm confident the Roman church will have to come to proper terms with the past and the future. So I encourage the media to continue exposing what occurred and what needs to be done.

Having said that, I ask the question of why only the Catholic Church for this scrutiny? Why not U.S. teachers and other school officials where, if probed sufficiently, would expose a number of sexual offenses toward youths far in excess of what the Catholic Church has experienced in this country? Surely these offenses and coverups are deserving of the same probing. Or what about other religious sects or the Boy Scouts or youth sports programs? This is not intended to excuse the Catholic Church but merely to say: "continue what you are doing with the Catholic Church but don't stop there".

Several final points: 1. the case that Pope Benedict XVI was closely associated with any abuse or of hiding abuse is, so far, virtually non-existent; 2. despite what others have said the abuse scandal in this country can be traced, at least partially, to a homosexual culture in the seminaries (see Michael Rose's "Goodbye, Good Men"; 3. I second DFW's comment that problems with the hierarchy is no excuse to leave the Church. I attend daily Mass and observe so many dedicated Catholics, following their faith despite what some in the hierarchy have done because they recognize the large number of good apples among the few bad ones.

[Nevada Hoya]

As a Catholic, I cannot defend the coverups and the abuses by the clergy. It grieves me, however, that the Church that I love is involved in this behavior. But the Church is more than the hierarchy, it is the people of God, some good and some bad. The Judeo-Christian religions have been frought with abuses reaching back 5000 years. In Chronicles you can read that many of the kings of Israel and Judah were not faithful to God. At the time of Jesus, who were the ones that He laid the strongest criticisms - the hierarchy. Through the history of the Catholic Church we have seen the inquisition, indulgence selling, abuses of some popes, and now we have coverups and abuse of minors. If we really believe in the message of Jesus, we will fight harder to live up to that message during these trying times. I will never live up to ideals that Jesus preached, but I can sure try.

[thebin]

Apr 22, 2010 12:54:43 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Apr 22, 2010 12:19:30 GMT -5 thebin said:

So next time you reflexively defend the Church I too grew up in, realize that the defensiveness and the bureaucratic ass-covering has driven this life-long Jesuit school attending Catholic and his progeny out for good. Surely there are many thousands more like me.

Hopefully not. The Church is still growing because the message is still more important than the bureaucracy, which is a poor excuse for leaving it anyway. It's like saying you're no longer American because you don't like the President.

It is nothing like that. For all intents and purposes I actually "left" the church years ago when I realized the entire thing (religion itself, not just RC religion) was pretty obviously based on nonsense. I'm just saying that because of the criminal coverup to all of the child-buggery, I won't even nominally let my offspring be so indoctrinated as I had previously been inclined simply to continue family traditions, avoid conflicts with grandparents, maintain some form of links to the old countries, etc. Long after I ceased to believe in supernatural beings I still felt some Catholic identity as a non-Protestent American of Irish, Polish, French, etc extraction. I've not been a Catholic in anything but demography for years.

[thebin]

"Why not U.S. teachers and other school officials where, if probed sufficiently, would expose a number of sexual offenses toward youths far in excess of what the Catholic Church has experienced in this country?"

FAR in excess huh? On what evidence? Boy that argument, such as it is, has a desperate stench to it. If you instead said all organized religions teach dangerous nonsense, I might be on board. But it is that kind of reflexive defensiveness (which deflects from the point) that makes all of your previous admissions seem disingenuous. How on earth do you know that? More like you hope it is true but have no evidence at all right? Quite obviously there is some link between the unnatural forced celibacy of RC priests and the crimes that are so widespread. Or is your head still well buried in the sand on that one?

[jerseyhoya34]

Isn't the inquiry whether school officials and these Boy Scouts, when probed, have submitted themselves to a transparent inquiry into where abuses are taking place, rather than whether teachers engage in the behavior at all?

I am not a Catholic but have a great deal of respect for those who are as well as the institutional Church, when it operates effectively. My experience at Georgetown was singularly positive when it came to interactions with Jesuits and my rather infrequent attendance at Mass. People my age have generally only known Pope John Paul II (until 2005 or thereabouts, when we met Pope Benedict). My respect for the Church largely grows out of how Pope John Paul II promoted God's work on Earth (regardless of what God you believe in), although some unfortunate things took place on his watch to some extent.

When I see some of this recent stuff, it is sad more than anything. It is also sad that people feel compelled to minimize it or write it off somehow. It has happened before, no doubt, but a lot of junk has happened before, and not all of it has been good. This behavior, while contrary to common sense, also erodes Catholic exceptionalism, which seeks to distinguish Catholicism from other things, based on adherence to doctrine/faith. I frequently cringe when Catholics draw distinctions between themselves and Episcopalians (gay bishops issue, for example) based on supposed understandings of faith, but recent developments suggest that this discussion is best relegated to the world of theory than that of practice.

[GIGAFAN99]

Apr 22, 2010 14:39:53 GMT -5 thebin said:

"Why not U.S. teachers and other school officials where, if probed sufficiently, would expose a number of sexual offenses toward youths far in excess of what the Catholic Church has experienced in this country?"

Quite obviously there is some link between the unnatural forced celibacy of RC priests and the crimes that are so widespread. Or is your head still well buried in the sand on that one?

I'd say there's likely link but it's not causal. It's actually incredibly illogical to think forced celibacy causes child molestation. You can't have sex so sex with a non-adult doesn't count? Hmmmm, I'll say no on that one.

Child molesters don't happen because of forced celibacy. But I'm quite sure young adults who have "tendencies" towards molestation (read, "are caught") and are from religious families may in fact have religious celibacy "recommended" to them by family members.

Combine that with the fact that child molesters DO go where they are in proximity of children and have authority over them including the roles of coaches, teachers, priests and (probably most sadly) foster parents and actual parents, and you have a perfect storm.

And bin, if they probed the foster child system there would be an incredibly devastating "rent-a-victim" culture far worse than the Catholic Church. But your reaction shows the allure of singling out the Catholic Church. If religion is to blame you can leave the Church (I did, just like you) but you can't leave humanity.

[thebin]

"You can't have sex so sex with a non-adult doesn't count? Hmmmm, I'll say no on that one."

Actually, I think you discount that possibility far too quickly. In the same way that thousands of young teens being force-fed abstinence think letting their boyfriend have anal sex with them at 14 means they are still pure virgins in God's eyes.

"if they probed the foster child system there would be an incredibly devastating "rent-a-victim" culture far worse than the Catholic Church."

Again, you have started with a conclusion that you admit is not supported by evidence. How do you know? Just a hunch? We have actual evidence of widespread child-buggery and conspiracy to support it about the RC church as an actual organization. You have no such evidence to make such a grand statement. Maybe it's true what you say, but just as possible maybe it's not, there is no reason to believe it and in that way it is a total non sequitur.

[GIGAFAN99]

Apr 22, 2010 15:13:45 GMT -5 thebin said:

"You can't have sex so sex with a non-adult doesn't count? Hmmmm, I'll say no on that one."

Actually, I think that too quickly. In the same way that millions of young teens being force-fed abstinence think letting their boyfriend have anal sex with them at 14 means they are still pure virgins in God's eyes.

bin, sex with a non-consenting child is completely different. These people are sick, predators and almost 100% were abused themselves. That's priests and anyone else.

Religion makes people believe god can change them and they don't need professional help to resist their behavior. That is dangerous. The church would rather cover this up than shed light on it and be ashamed. That's reprehensible.

But priests are not "illogically" having sex with children and if they suddenly stopped believing in god they'd start banging adults like everyone else. They'd just find another way to get to children and satisfy their compulsion.