GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 22, 2010 15:32:03 GMT -5
"You can't have sex so sex with a non-adult doesn't count? Hmmmm, I'll say no on that one." Actually, I think you discount that possibility far too quickly. In the same way that thousands of young teens being force-fed abstinence think letting their boyfriend have anal sex with them at 14 means they are still pure virgins in God's eyes. "if they probed the foster child system there would be an incredibly devastating "rent-a-victim" culture far worse than the Catholic Church." Again, you have started with a conclusion that you admit is not supported by evidence. How do you know? Just a hunch? We have actual evidence of widespread child-buggery and conspiracy to support it about the RC church as an actual organization. You have no such evidence to make such a grand statement. Maybe it's true what you say, but just as possible maybe it's not, there is no reason to believe it and in that way it is a total non sequitur. My father (principal) witnessed thousands of kids (foster kids and otherwise) in the public schools over 40 years in a poor rural area and he had to report incidents. Convicted or not, nearly 40% of the children in the school district reported or witnessed an incident at some point by sixth grade (think about this for a second). It was mostly family members. The number of people you stand by on the subway who have been molested at some point would make you sick. I'm a Catholic turned atheist too, man. But this is not just a Catholic problem and I'd go so far to say it actually minimizes it the other way when the RC church is such a focus. It's about as terrible as it gets. If it makes you feel better, think it's about religion. Actually, I'm serious, do that because it's really sad otherwise.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Apr 22, 2010 16:12:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure I've ever seen my position mis-stated quite that drastically. I don't remotely think child-rape is "all about religion." But I certainly think there is a link between the supposed celibacy of RC priests and the prediliction for molesters to find themselves in the cloth.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 22, 2010 16:52:02 GMT -5
Hopefully not. The Church is still growing because the message is still more important than the bureaucracy, which is a poor excuse for leaving it anyway. It's like saying you're no longer American because you don't like the President. It is nothing like that. For all intents and purposes I actually "left" the church years ago when I realized the entire thing (religion itself, not just RC religion) was pretty obviously based on nonsense. I'm just saying that because of the criminal coverup to all of the child-buggery, I won't even nominally let my offspring be so indoctrinated as I had previously been inclined simply to continue family traditions, avoid conflicts with grandparents, maintain some form of links to the old countries, etc. Long after I ceased to believe in supernatural beings I still felt some Catholic identity as a non-Protestent American of Irish, Polish, French, etc extraction. I've not been a Catholic in anything but demography for years. Good luck with that and I really mean that. I didn't want to baptize my kids mostly due to the nonsense that is religion but also due to my outrage at the church from this molestation thing. However, the blowback from my family was so intense that I had to cave in order to preserve family harmony. In the end, a stupid and meaningless 30 minute ceremony was worth it in order maintain peace in my family. That said, my wife and I both agree that we are going to let the kids choose their religious path when they are old enough to understand and decide (no first communion or confirmation for my kids when they are still in grammar school). While I really hope they choose the no religion path, the path they eventually do choose will be OK with me as long as they make it carefully and with a lot of consideration.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Apr 23, 2010 10:15:50 GMT -5
"Why not U.S. teachers and other school officials where, if probed sufficiently, would expose a number of sexual offenses toward youths far in excess of what the Catholic Church has experienced in this country?" FAR in excess huh? On what evidence? Boy that argument, such as it is, has a desperate stench to it. If you instead said all organized religions teach dangerous nonsense, I might be on board. But it is that kind of reflexive defensiveness (which deflects from the point) that makes all of your previous admissions seem disingenuous. How on earth do you know that? More like you hope it is true but have no evidence at all right? Quite obviously there is some link between the unnatural forced celibacy of RC priests and the crimes that are so widespread. Or is your head still well buried in the sand on that one? Here's one report on problems related to sexual conduct with teachers and other school employees. archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/5/01552.shtml
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 24, 2010 16:13:50 GMT -5
According the to the Census info, there are 6,200,000 teachers in the USA. There are about 40,000 Catholic Priests. That would be about 150 teachers for every Catholic Priest. But I don't really know why we are introducing possible sexual misconduct by teachers into this discussion. Isn't it entirely irrelevant? Besides which, don't we hold Priests to a higher standard? And, by the way, is there any evidence of school districts moving teachers around from town to town after they've been discovered as Pedophiles? www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/001737.html
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Apr 24, 2010 17:04:39 GMT -5
Good luck with that and I really mean that. I didn't want to baptize my kids mostly due to the nonsense that is religion but also due to my outrage at the church from this molestation thing. However, the blowback from my family was so intense that I had to cave in order to preserve family harmony. In the end, a stupid and meaningless 30 minute ceremony was worth it in order maintain peace in my family. That said, my wife and I both agree that we are going to let the kids choose their religious path when they are old enough to understand and decide (no first communion or confirmation for my kids when they are still in grammar school). While I really hope they choose the no religion path, the path they eventually do choose will be OK with me as long as they make it carefully and with a lot of consideration. I think a few of us on the board would not consider Baptism of our children a stupid and meaningless ceremony.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 24, 2010 20:02:19 GMT -5
A few (more) thoughts.
1. Yes, the Church is an easy punching bag on this target (and Comedy Central can rest easy that they won't threaten the lives of those that disagree) but it's also likely the Vatican did not fully grasp the severity of issues when they first surfaced, perhaps dismissing it as an "American problem". The clergy is a family of sorts and dioceses were hesitant to kick someone out of the family on mere allegation, which was the extent of many of the claims prior to the establishment of formal legal proceedings. Now that there are legal procedures enforced, there is a clear means of action, which does not yet exist in other countries.
2. The issue of pedophilia is complex one and a link to celibate or religious behavior does not exist (claims against nuns or Buddhist monks, for example, are very few in comparison). Nonetheless, those vermin that sought safe cover in positions of authority are not restricted to the Church or other religions in general--the Boy Scouts come to mind. In addition, cases of teacher abuse continue to be reported, though they are less salacious in the news than those of the clergy. (The Scouts are the next in the spotlight, as a recent story noted that the Scouts' corporate office has actually kept secret files on predator scoutmasters dating to the 1920's that is now being sought in upcoming criminal trials.)
3. Is there an anti-Catholic rhetoric in some of these cases? Absolutely. Twenty years ago, the local diocese was one of the first to deal with this issue. When a jury returned an amount of over $120 million over two abuse cases that the diocese could not pay, the prosecuting attorney was said to have claimed that he would seize the assets of the local Catholic hospital and Jesuit high school in order to get the money which was ridiculous since neither were under the control of the diocese. Upon appeal the judgment was reduced to $22 million, which reduced the attorney's potential take from $40 million to just under $7 million. (Under Texas law, the convict in question is serving a life sentence.) In the intervening years, the diocese's safety and security policies for children and vulnerable adults is a model for other dioceses going forward.
4. Just my thoughts, and nothing personal at all to those above who have said as such, but it seems atheism is the intellectual version of the Flat Earth Society. I can understand those that may question God's existence from their own experiences, but someone who thinks they are so self-actualized that they can categorically veto all such concepts is somewhat baffling.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 24, 2010 20:03:06 GMT -5
Good luck with that and I really mean that. I didn't want to baptize my kids mostly due to the nonsense that is religion but also due to my outrage at the church from this molestation thing. However, the blowback from my family was so intense that I had to cave in order to preserve family harmony. In the end, a stupid and meaningless 30 minute ceremony was worth it in order maintain peace in my family. That said, my wife and I both agree that we are going to let the kids choose their religious path when they are old enough to understand and decide (no first communion or confirmation for my kids when they are still in grammar school). While I really hope they choose the no religion path, the path they eventually do choose will be OK with me as long as they make it carefully and with a lot of consideration. I think a few of us on the board would not consider Baptism of our children a stupid and meaningless ceremony. I'm sure that's true but I can't imagine why.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Apr 25, 2010 9:11:09 GMT -5
First, this is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while. And I agree that the addition of teachers is irrelevant in terms of arguing the religious aspect of this. However, as GIGA pointed out, it is a larger issue throughout society and focusing strictly on the RC situation may well be doing a disservice. With regard to teachers, I don't have any evidence of moving teachers from district to district (though I think it's exceedingly unlikely due to the fact that the public school systems are unable to "transfer" teachers as though all schools were one organization), but I do know for a fact that teachers are 1. very difficult to fire once receiving tenure and 2. if a school is able to rid itself of a "bad" teacher in any regard, it is very often the case that the cause for dismissal is closed to the public so as to preserve the reputation of the school. As such, it is not rare in a school to find out certain past transgressions after a teacher that has been hired has been tenured. This, however, I believe is more of an issue where the unions have too much power and are far too willing to protect any and every teacher whether or not they deserve it.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Apr 25, 2010 14:50:46 GMT -5
I think a few of us on the board would not consider Baptism of our children a stupid and meaningless ceremony. I'm sure that's true but I can't imagine why. One word: faith.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 25, 2010 16:21:32 GMT -5
I'm sure that's true but I can't imagine why. One word: faith. I generally find Bill Maher to be an insufferable blowhard but this quote from Religulous is spot on - "Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are intellectual slave holders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction."
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Apr 25, 2010 18:13:15 GMT -5
I generally find Bill Maher to be an insufferable blowhard but this quote from Religulous is spot on - "Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are intellectual slave holders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction." Why do you insist on insulting people of faith?
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Apr 25, 2010 18:57:03 GMT -5
As far as I can tell this isn't a thread about the merits or lack thereof (depending on your point of view) of faith. I'm not religious but, even so, I'm offended by the attack of those who are. Please let's get back on topic.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 25, 2010 20:14:07 GMT -5
I generally find Bill Maher to be an insufferable blowhard but this quote from Religulous is spot on - "Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are intellectual slave holders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction." Why do you insist on insulting people of faith? Because they deserve it. More accurately, I think the basis of that faith is ridiculous and should be pointed out as often as possible. If that bothers and insults people of faith, that's just the way it goes and I don't apologize for it.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 25, 2010 21:30:31 GMT -5
I think a few of us on the board would not consider Baptism of our children a stupid and meaningless ceremony. Discussing how the Church has and has not handled the global pedophilia situation is what this thread is about. Lots of room for various opinions on that subject. But one's personal religious beliefs are another matter entirely, and are deserving of respect whether one agrees with them or not. I would like to request that we refrain from criticizing individuals' religious and spiritual beliefs, be they Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheism or whatever else.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Apr 25, 2010 21:57:09 GMT -5
Why are bad ideas worthy of respect?
Because we respect other people's opinions here. If you simply cannot respect others, don't post.--Admin
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