NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 1, 2010 23:26:04 GMT -5
Well, it looks like we found something in Vee. With Clark struggling to find positive ways to contribute, I have no problem getting Vee some minutes. However, the notion that Vee should sub for Chris is a little crazy. As bad as people think Chris is playing the last two games he has a combined 13 assists to 5 TOs. That is pretty darn good for a guy who has to dominate the ball out of necessity. But you will get no argument from me about getting Vee some minutes. He needs them.
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Post by wahoohoya on Mar 1, 2010 23:28:16 GMT -5
I'll jump in on the side that thinks III made a mistake here. Call it stubborn, short-sighted, greedy - whatever. Not saying he's a bad coach or anything, but he isn't beyond criticism. Vee showed early on he was competent in his limited minutes here and there. That doesn't mean he deserved 15+ minutes back in January. But 6 - 8 minutes might have helped the cause. Give Chris a couple extra minutes rest in the middle of each half. And Jason. And yeah - even Freeman. It's a long season and every little bit can help.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 1, 2010 23:31:16 GMT -5
Giga, I'm a huge fan of Vee. Love his ability to generate steals. And the one thing I think is an almost always-valid criticism of Thompson is how little he plays his backups in complete cream-puff games. So no, of course, I think Vee could have played more. And yes, I think him playing well over 21 minutes here is a data point to him being ready now and likely ready before now. As is the Greenberg quote. But I think there's very little evidence to say he was ready to play 21 minutes ten games ago. And Vee would be far from the first freshman this year to have a big game and then fade as the scouting report wears off a bit. Furthermore, I'm not convinced of the fatigue argument (see that thread for why). And lastly, while Chris has been pretty bad the second half of the season, he was fantastic the first half. And Vee is not a PG. And Clark has had his share of bad games and good games. Are we playing a four guard lineup now? Are we replacing what little bigs we have with even smaller players? Is it possible that III thinks that he's playing his best three? Is it possible he's right? Giga, it's not the comment that maybe we should play Vee more, or should have, or that we should bring him in on D or for a spark I disagree with. It's the certainty that he should have been playing much bigger minutes previously. I can see an entirely rational and very likely correct argument for the other side. The commentary that "we know" Vee has "been wasted" because "iii sure is stubborn" is what annoys me. Maybe he is in this situation. Or maybe there's a reason he thinks Wright, Freeman and Clark are better and should get the lion's share. Where do Vee's minutes come from? Freeman? Please. Wright? As much as Chris has struggled, I shudder to see the offense when he's out. Clark? Very similar player. I like the idea of shuttling them in and out and asking them to play crazy intense, but if you aren't going to do that... do you think Vee is better than Clark? Hollis and Benimon? So yeah, he may be better than one of these guys, particularly Benimon. Except that many of their minutes come when Julian (and a couple for Greg) are out. I seem to remember you being someone who kind of hates small lineups. I actually think we agree on almost everything. I just think Vee could have gotten 5-10 minutes just to prepare him for a) having to be used in case of injury or foul trouble and b) next year. We have so few players, it seems weird to recruit this kid and then not use him so we're a hamstring or a flu bug from throwing him to the wolves. I think that's worse than baptism by fire early in the year.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 1, 2010 23:46:42 GMT -5
I just went through the play-by-play. The score with Vee in the game was 44-36 in favor of Georgetown.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 1, 2010 23:56:21 GMT -5
Chris does not need to play 35-40 minutes per game. It is counterproductive. He tries to pace himself because he can't play all out for 40 minutes on both ends of the court.
Clark and Freeman also would be better with another guard in the rotation taking a few of their minutes and putting it all out there on the floor on the defensive end. This team's biggest problem all season has been that it cannot maintain defensive intensity for more than half a game. All seaon, they have given up runs and scored in runs. It would have helped everyone to put Vee out there to harrass opposing guards for a few minutes each half.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 1, 2010 23:58:34 GMT -5
I just went through the play-by-play. The score with Vee in the game was 44-36 in favor of Georgetown. So 24-45 against when he was out. Pretty remarkable difference, I'd say.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 2, 2010 0:49:30 GMT -5
I just went through the play-by-play. The score with Vee in the game was 44-36 in favor of Georgetown. So 24-45 against when he was out. Pretty remarkable difference, I'd say. Here is a big reason why: Turnovers: Sanford in: GU 6, WVU 7 Sanford out: GU 14, WVU 2
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Mar 2, 2010 1:02:34 GMT -5
So 24-45 against when he was out. Pretty remarkable difference, I'd say. Here is a big reason why: Turnovers: Sanford in: GU 6, WVU 7 Sanford out: GU 14, WVU 2 BOOM Play this kid, Coach!
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 2, 2010 9:13:50 GMT -5
I like what I have seen of Vee, he is a player, but he is not a point becuase just like Clark his dribble is too high and is proned to get stripped of ball by a pressing guard., Like others have said, he and Clark are very similar and I wish we could have seen him having been subbed for him earlier just to give Clark a rest on defense then bring Clark back and Chris out to give Chris a short blow. But if they are playing team like Nova, then Chris has to go most of the way.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 2, 2010 9:32:52 GMT -5
Vee is not the answer to our problem in the back court.
Vee is a good kid, and good player, similar to Clark.
Vee is evolving, and that is why he is playing more. I'm quite sure he isn't the same Vee 2 months ago in practice.
let's say for argument sake, III was stubborn and Vee was ready at the beginning of the season.
not playing Vee isn't the reason why we are losing.
Vee is a clone of Clark.
We lack a floor general on offense. (And about 2 more ballhandlers as well).
Vee can't help us here.
Wright is doing all he can, and trying as hard as he can, but he lacks the ability to run an offense, and know when to get his and when to involve teammates. And he is trying to learn his way through this and gets frustrated and panics which makes things worse.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 2, 2010 9:57:49 GMT -5
Why can't Vee play without it being interpreted as a threat to Wright's status as lead dog?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 2, 2010 10:01:19 GMT -5
Why can't Vee play without it being interpreted as a threat to Wright's status as lead dog? Vee is a threat to nobody. Wright has no "status" other than the fact that he is on the player on the roster that can effectively dribble the basketball.
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Post by wahoohoya on Mar 2, 2010 10:14:26 GMT -5
Vee is not the answer to our problem in the back court. Vee is a good kid, and good player, similar to Clark. Vee is evolving, and that is why he is playing more. I'm quite sure he isn't the same Vee 2 months ago in practice. let's say for argument sake, III was stubborn and Vee was ready at the beginning of the season. not playing Vee isn't the reason why we are losing. Vee is a clone of Clark. We lack a floor general on offense. (And about 2 more ballhandlers as well). Vee can't help us here. Wright is doing all he can, and trying as hard as he can, but he lacks the ability to run an offense, and know when to get his and when to involve teammates. And he is trying to learn his way through this and gets frustrated and panics which makes things worse. Yeah but don't you think a few minutes on the bench per half might have given Wright an opportunity to settle down and reaccess what's going on? Fact is - Wright has to pace himself during the games because he has to play so many minutes, and it's simply not possible to play with 100% intensity for 38+ minutes per game. And that leads to poor decision making. The team has clearly hit a wall and hasn't improved since January. Working in Vee for a few extra minutes per game might not have changed much, but it certainly would have given him more of an opportunity to improve and quite possibly would have made this team mentally and physically stronger at this point in the season. And I disagree that Vee is a Clark clone. There are a lot of similarities but for my money Vee is more controlled going to the basket and has a nice little floater there. And he looks like he has quicker hands. I don't know - this kid seems like he adds to the rotation. A solid defender with some decent offensive skills that other teams have to respect. Of course he would have been playing more if he were showing more signs two months ago, but the kid can clearly play at this level so you have to work him in - especially with the depth problems we have. But III wanted his best guys out there for nearly all the minutes, and imho it was a mistake that this team is now worse off for. But the season is far from over and I think they can still make a nice run.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 2, 2010 10:28:10 GMT -5
Vee basically plays the same position as Clark.
He can't do what Chris does.
And Chris can't do what is expected out of guy in his position. He is a fish out of water trying to be Jon Wallace, and then when he needs to dominate he can't, and is left confused and frustrated.
And its not any of these guys fault.
Its JTIII's.
This group is a team that has been thrown together and they don't mesh well at all.
Unless we shoot lights out, we struggle. Its been that way the past 2 years.
JTIII's recruiting has not worked to fit his system. And his system and style of play is getting taken to the task the past 2 years now.
Frankly, his system got too much credit when we went to the Final Four and sweet sixteen.
Was it the system, or having 2 NBA first round draft picks the reason for why we did what we did.
Was it the system or was Jon Wallace just a heady ball-player with ice in his veins in crunch time.
Was it the system or was it Tyler Crawford's leadership among the players, despite the fact he rarely played on the court.
Was it the system or was it PE, Jr's relentless hustle, talent, and enthusiasm for the game?
Was it the system or was it young supportive role players like Rivers, Summers, and Sapp?
Was it the system or was it all of the aforementioned players's chemistry on the court?
It comes down to what type of players you have, and not just your system.
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Post by wahoohoya on Mar 2, 2010 10:42:09 GMT -5
Again, not saying Vee needs to do what Chris does. I'm saying that Chris might do a better job with a couple of extra minutes rest per half. Chris is who he is - he needs to play fast and hard to be most effective. That doesn't mean he should be out of control, but he needs to play at the limit. And when he does that, he can be effective running this offense.
I'm with you though about the fault needing to be placed on III. I respect him and think he can be a great coach, but his teams have not improved during the course of the past two seasons, and that's on the coach. My biggest criticism of III is that he never deflects any of the blame on himself, but he's quick to point to his system when the team plays well.
But the simple fact is - Vee has by far the sweetest hairdo on the team and for that reason alone he should be playing more minutes.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 2, 2010 10:51:18 GMT -5
Way, I completely agree with you. Vee can't replace Chris. Nor should he.
What I want is to see Vee be the 7th man in our rotation behind Hollis. I want him getting more minutes than Benimon and definitely more minutes than Sims. If we have to go small, so be it. I think Vee's defense and ability to take care of the ball (see: above turnover margin for last night) outweigh any deficiencies we might have rebounding with that lineup (and Vee's not afraid to mix it up for boards either). Not to mention I think teams have to respect him as a viable outside shooter, which would create more room for Greg and Julian down in the post.
Simply put, Vee needs to play WITH Chris, not INSTEAD of him.
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biggmanu
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Post by biggmanu on Mar 2, 2010 10:52:38 GMT -5
JT3 needs to get fired up about this turnover issue. Look at our TO's compared to WV's last night. Disgusting. If JT3 is willing to bench Jessie Sapp I feel like he should go ahead and bench Clark and/or Wright for the Cinci game and start Vee and/or Hollis. We need to get a handle on the season and it should start with our ball handlers.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 2, 2010 10:58:00 GMT -5
If Starks isn't a true point either, what happens when Chris graduates? You've got Vee, Clark & Starks with all three being secondary ballhandlers. Is this a fair assessment?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 2, 2010 10:58:03 GMT -5
its a moot point, though
i think Vee's significance is not the issue or why we are struggling.
but i think we are still stuck whether we play Vee vs. Clark.
Wright will still have his issues. Greg, for all his passing ability, is not a force defensively inside the paint. Vaughn is are best back-to-the-basket big man, but he can only go about 20-25 minutes a game.
Hollis is still green. Benimon is still raw. Their contributions on the court buy time for the starters.
I think the white elephant in the room is Henry's lack of development.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 2, 2010 10:59:10 GMT -5
Funny, the_way, but our offense hasn't been the problem at all. It's largely been our defense that has caused the majority of our losses, and our bad losses.
If JTIII hasn't recruited for his system, it's because he's completely screwed up not recruiting another big man who is better defensively than Julian. Or a bench that can play defensively.
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