Big men hedging 40 ft from the basket

[gastonhall]

Why do we insist on having all our big men hedge against guards 40 feet from the basket? All this seems to do is set up an easy shot for the opposition (if the refs don't call a foul on Greg or Julian for bodying up). Who started this "new defensive trend" and why continue doing it when it seldom results in a turnover and almost always results in a defensive mismatch or a big man left wide open underneath?

[JohnnyJones]

Feb 27, 2010 15:57:47 GMT -5 gastonhall said:

Why do we insist on having all our big men hedge against guards 40 feet from the basket? All this seems to do is set up an easy shot for the opposition (if the refs don't call a foul on Greg or Julian for bodying up). Who started this "new defensive trend" and why continue doing it when it seldom results in a turnover and almost always results in a defensive mismatch or a big man left wide open underneath?

Almost no other play in a game frustrates me more than when Greg and Julian pick up fouls doing this (in particular Greg obviously). I would also be interested in hearing what the intended advantage or benefit is of doing this. Whatever it might be, it rarely if ever works, because only bad things seem to result.

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Guess what? Roy Hibbert did this ALL THE TIME too (see Davidson and other frustrating losses)....very stupid defensive technique instead of fighting through the screen....not sure why III and the coaches don't teach this better!!!

[ksf42001]

Feb 27, 2010 17:04:00 GMT -5 WilsonBlvdHoya said:

Guess what? Roy Hibbert did this ALL THE TIME too (see Davidson and other frustrating losses)....very stupid defensive technique instead of fighting through the screen....not sure why III and the coaches don't teach this better!!!

You do realize Hibbert also did it in all those non-frustrating wins don't you? It's just a way of keeping the ball handler from being able to drive into the lane on the other side of the screen, at least that's what I always assumed it was for...

[hoyaboy1]

It annoys me more when we are more than happy to switch whenever a big guy sets a lame screen at the three point line, leaving two mismatches. Teams run that against us regularly and we usually oblige.

[FLHoya]

As noted above, we've done it for years. Haven't been particularly good at this year IMO--again, as someone noted above, it causes too many cheap fouls on Greg when there's contact, and we don't need Greg picking up cheap fouls.


The particular problem today: Notre Dame spent time in their pre-game warm-up running drills that to my eye simulated how one might beat a hedge. A guard would dribble laterally, then stop (sometimes pivot), pass laterally to another player, who would quickly pass it to a shooter spotted up somewhere for a quick jump shot.

ND in their pre-game did a number of variations on quick passing/drive and kick that would end with spot up shooters. It was maddening that we seemed to be defending in the worst possible way for what they planned to do...and I mean, without a serious interior presence, that's the kind of team they are for goodness sake!

[mapei]

I love it. More warmup analyses, please!

[rustyshackleford]

Feb 27, 2010 17:22:32 GMT -5 FLHoya said:

As noted above, we've done it for years. Haven't been particularly good at this year IMO--again, as someone noted above, it causes too many cheap fouls on Greg when there's contact, and we don't need Greg picking up cheap fouls.


The particular problem today: Notre Dame spent time in their pre-game warm-up running drills that to my eye simulated how one might beat a hedge. A guard would dribble laterally, then stop (sometimes pivot), pass laterally to another player, who would quickly pass it to a shooter spotted up somewhere for a quick jump shot.

ND in their pre-game did a number of variations on quick passing/drive and kick that would end with spot up shooters. It was maddening that we seemed to be defending in the worst possible way for what they planned to do...and I mean, without a serious interior presence, that's the kind of team they are for goodness sake!

This also suggests that one of the fatal flaws was not recognizing that and making the adjustment in game. You would think that not giving that open pass would immediately disrupt the flow of a 1 dimensional offensive team like ND.

[FLHoya]

Feb 27, 2010 17:25:26 GMT -5 mapei said:

I love it. More warmup analyses, please!

Hahaha, well the warmups were less depressing than the game.

[HometownHoya]

On top of what FL said, one thing ND was doing very effectively was not holding their picks. Their picks weren't to get a player free but was just to get us to switch. Their picking player was letting our player fight through but we had already switched, so we practically were doing bad double teams and their picker was getting an easy roll and causing us to just continuously chase.

[chep3]

Feb 27, 2010 17:15:07 GMT -5 hoyaboy1 said:

It annoys me more when we are more than happy to switch whenever a big guy sets a lame screen at the three point line, leaving two mismatches. Teams run that against us regularly and we usually oblige.

Completely agree. There is a time and place for hedging and switching on these screens. But it feels like we switch automatically, no matter how strong the screen is or who the guard is. Sometimes, I'd like to see us fight through the screen and prevent the easy mismatch. Hansbrough murdered us with this play.

[bmartin]

I don't think the problem is only the bigs. The guards do not fight through picks and too often are in between not guarding either guy. The bigs should be able to jump out to stop the drive or three and then jump back to guard the picker but they need to know that the guard is fighting to get back to the dribbler.

[OldHoyafan]

The purpose as noted, is to flatten out the drive of the dribbler so that he does not turn the corner for an easy layup. The problem has been the overcommitment by the big men especially Monroe who literally chases the dribbler almost to the half court line. Once the big man "shows" and stops the drive to the basket, the picked defensive guard should now have enough time to recover. Monroe goes way to far most of the times. You would only go as far as he goes if you were going to trap the dribbling guard on the sideline with the recovering defensive guard and we know the Hoyas never trap.

[DanMcQ]

Hedging is fine if the help defenders rotate properly. Pretty much never happened today.

[gujake]

Yep, I brought this up in the game thread and it is totally maddening. It's perfectly fine to hedge a little bit and mix it up, but it's the DEGREE to which we hedge that makes it easy for the opponent.

As others have noted, we have been doing this every year since III has been here. It was very noticeable when Roy Hibbert would do it, too.

I think that in many ways, that team was better suited to be using hedging as a tactic, though. We had multiple shot-blocking bigs, so if one of them was a little out of position due to the hedge, it was often masked because guards couldn't just waltz into the lane anyway since Hibbert, Green, Ewing, etc could all be there waiting.

This year, once a big is out of position, the rotation is just too slow because we don't have anybody left underneath to sort of slow the offense down (and, as Dan mentions, because we just aren't good at rotating). As soon as they find the open man, it's a layup or a wide open three.

I personally hate it as a strategy, period, though. It's easy to plan against and gets our best players in foul trouble. Ugh.

[FrazierFanatic]

Do we have a coach whose primary responsibility is defense? Or do III and the others just include it as one part of their duties? If we don't have one, we might want to start looking around,'cuz we are NOT a very good defensive team. We are slow on the ball,we don't help well, we don't recover well, we don't box out well or rebound well.

[jgalt]

Feb 27, 2010 22:32:55 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

Do we have a coach whose primary responsibility is defense? Or do III and the others just include it as one part of their duties? If we don't have one, we might want to start looking around,'cuz we are NOT a very good defensive team. We are slow on the ball,we don't help well, we don't recover well, we don't box out well or rebound well.

There is a guy that goes to every game and sits near the press row and in the past he wore a hat with a big "T" on it but now he seems to wear a hat with "Air Force" on it. I heard he was pretty good with defense. And i think JTIII and he know each other. Maybe he can help.

[lichoya68]

why dont we HUSTLE AND CRASH THE BOARDS AND GET ON THE FLOOR FOR BALLS HUH?? NEED TO DO THAT TO WIN.. GO HOYAS MOVE MOVE MOVE AND MOVE ON and i need to remember its 18-22year old kids and only a game go hoyas

[momzer]

Last year I called for JT3 to call upon ZO to come back and help the bigs with their defense. This year, I again call on JT3 to send out an SOS to Zo for next year. The same way that Patrick has helped Dwight Howard, Zo would help Greg, JV and maybe even Henry, although I am beginning to believe that would be a complete loss. Who better to teach the bigs than the best defensive big, Hoyas ever had. With all deference to Patrick, Zo was not only a defensive presence here, but was also the meanest (in a good way) guy in the NBA for years. Just ask Jeff Van Gundy as he was taking his trip as a mop on an NBA floor.

[SFHoya99]

The hedging isn't the issue.

I mean, except when there's no follow-through. The defense we run requires a lot of effort. While it's not hyper-aggressive in trapping, it requires everyone to move, and move quickly because it requires a lot of motion.

On a day when no one seems to want to play defense, it looks awful. That's what happened today. It's also why we tried the zone again despite the obvious drawbacks, I think.