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Post by williambraskyiii on Feb 6, 2010 21:36:39 GMT -5
one thing is for certain, taylor king is a little btch! so glad we smacked those editeds down today! Go Hoyas!
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seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,670
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Post by seaweed on Feb 6, 2010 22:00:41 GMT -5
I am on the side that says you don't teach young men to break the rules, foul, to gain advantage.
it IS dirty, it is breaking the rules dammit
I say it is bad, wrong, annoying, all that
I am also of the opinion that if you foul enough on D the refs won't be bold enough to call all the stuff you do on O
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sweetness
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 838
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Post by sweetness on Feb 6, 2010 22:30:20 GMT -5
I completely agree - they foul on every possesion and it is really tiresome.
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hoyaalf
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
I like what your doing very much. Why squirrel hate me?
Posts: 688
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Post by hoyaalf on Feb 7, 2010 10:46:58 GMT -5
So Seaweed, you don't foul at the end of a game to stop the clock?
Don't say that's different. It isn't.
Good luck, coach.
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hoopsmccan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,429
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Post by hoopsmccan on Feb 7, 2010 10:50:10 GMT -5
I am on the side that says you don't teach young men to break the rules, foul, to gain advantage. it IS dirty, it is breaking the rules dammit I say it is bad, wrong, annoying, all that I am also of the opinion that if you foul enough on D the refs won't be bold enough to call all the stuff you do on O Give me a break. So let's tell our players not to foul an opposing player that has a layup. Down by 1 with 20 seconds to go...oh well, let's get them next time because we are just going to let them run the clock out because we don't want to break the rules to gain an advantage. I think you are a long time Hoya fan, but your memory must not be so good. Remember how Hoyas teams used to play? In opposing player's jocks for 40 minutes - foul trouble? Not to worry, we've got another guy on the bench that can't shoot but sure can get after it on D. Easy layup? Not a chance. That is the G'town tradition. We've changed things up and now play a prettier brand of basketball. But are we so far removed from our past that we are now whining about Villanova's guards being too aggressive. Boo hoo. I hate Scottie. I hate his lean into jumping defenders. I hate his dribbling with his left arm out like he is posing for the Heisman. But if that gives him the best chance to be successful and refs don't call his offensive fouls, its not "dirty"...its annoying, frustrating, but not dirty. Dirty would be this - the next time Scottie leans into a defender while the defender is in the air after falling for a shot fake, the defender should have his elbow "accidentally" smack into Scottie's contact-initiating head. That would be dirty...and I'd be all for it. hm
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Feb 7, 2010 10:54:04 GMT -5
This is the BIG EAST and Georgetown should always be a program that INVITES physical play. Day that changes---well I'm not going to even mention it because that will NOT CHANGE as long as Hoyas have a program.
Nothing like watching Scottie Reynolds "show":
1. Hoisting stupid shots 2. Falling to the ground without anyone touching him at LEAST 5 times per half 3. Dribbling/Passing like he's never played guard 4. Horde of people who ignore his lack of ability and heap blind praise upon him for his "shot" against Pitt--where any other player makes a nice pass for layup/dunk to win to a wide open teammate. 5. No defensive ability other then to hack 6. INSERT ANALYST "Scottie's not fast, he's not athletic, but he's got a place in NBA.....I THINK".
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hoyaalf
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
I like what your doing very much. Why squirrel hate me?
Posts: 688
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Post by hoyaalf on Feb 7, 2010 11:31:29 GMT -5
BTW, it's young men, not coaches, who teach the subtleties of ref manipulation to other young men in the schoolyard.
'Twas ever thus.
If it warrants Purgatory Time, so it goes.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Feb 7, 2010 11:39:49 GMT -5
I hold to the philosophy that its not a foul unless its called. Most coaches i know pretty much hold the same.
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seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,670
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Post by seaweed on Feb 7, 2010 11:45:02 GMT -5
Give me a break. So let's tell our players not to foul an opposing player that has a layup. No, I would tell them not to give up a layup in the first place. You seem to think me getting on JWrong for condoning fouling somehow equates with JT and III teaching men to play hard a$$ agressive D that IS CLEAN. Fouls happen, that is part of the game, I just don't want it to be a persistent part of the strategy. My coach says be HARD, be SOLID but do not be Dirty. There coach says keep it sleazy. I love Hoya D and I know there is a difference btw sending a message with a foul, a hard step over the body and walk away kind of foul "cause you thought you could hang on our rim last season, yeah we remember that" kind of foul. I will even acknowledge that (more rarely than you think does GU clock manage w hacking) certain endgame situations may require fouling, but if you think VU's D is like that, well we will just have to disagree. Hand checking and head butting are very different things if you know what I mean - every now and then you need to headbutt, but that aint cheating, that's just establishing Hoya ground rules. ON EDIT: That's why I want to change the name of this thread back, because it is not a question of aggressiveness w the kitties, it is a problem of halfa$$ed no good dirtiness.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,394
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Post by hoyainspirit on Feb 7, 2010 13:47:32 GMT -5
Give me a break. So let's tell our players not to foul an opposing player that has a layup. Down by 1 with 20 seconds to go...oh well, let's get them next time because we are just going to let them run the clock out because we don't want to break the rules to gain an advantage. I think you are a long time Hoya fan, but your memory must not be so good. Remember how Hoyas teams used to play? In opposing player's jocks for 40 minutes - foul trouble? Not to worry, we've got another guy on the bench that can't shoot but sure can get after it on D. Easy layup? Not a chance. That is the G'town tradition. We've changed things up and now play a prettier brand of basketball. But are we so far removed from our past that we are now whining about Villanova's guards being too aggressive. Boo hoo. I hate Scottie. I hate his lean into jumping defenders. I hate his dribbling with his left arm out like he is posing for the Heisman. But if that gives him the best chance to be successful and refs don't call his offensive fouls, its not "dirty"...its annoying, frustrating, but not dirty. Dirty would be this - the next time Scottie leans into a defender while the defender is in the air after falling for a shot fake, the defender should have his elbow "accidentally" smack into Scottie's contact-initiating head. That would be dirty...and I'd be all for it. hm What he said. Times two. Nothing wrong with hit 'em, bump 'em defense. We play rough, too. And used to play far more rough than we play now!
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
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Post by quickplay on Feb 7, 2010 14:09:02 GMT -5
It is definitely frustrating when a team (Nova being a textbook example) fouls so much that the refs don't even bother keeping up with it, giving that team a pretty strong advantage on defense (similar thing with this year's syracuse zone). I thought this game the refs did a decent job at keeping them honest.
Something that I can't stand and I don't respect in a player is flopping. Reynolds' flopping and acting is a joke. And someone mentioned something about his pump fake three pointer fouls; on the second one, he blatantly jumped into the defender, and never even got the ball above his hip. That is not a shooting foul, that is not continuation. That was a ref saying 'ok i know what he was trying to do.' Most of those are not good calls, and now to be giving him three free throws when there wasn't even an attempt at anything that resembled a shot is a joke.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 7, 2010 15:06:31 GMT -5
I think the consenus seems to be: It's annoying but not dirty.
I'd also like to add, it has a lot to do with Villanova not being a good defensive team this year. They grabbed last year but they also stayed in front of people. This year they're playing more with their hands than ever and it's because they miss Cunningham on d in a big way so they're amping up the pressure on the ball.
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Feb 7, 2010 15:12:11 GMT -5
Simply stated, Nova's primary defensive strategy is to anesthetize the officials with constant fouling. They commit several fouls on each and every possession, making it well nigh impossible to call them all.
It is not dirty, nor is it particularly rough. Thus far it has been, for them, effective in the Big East. One has to wonder how it will play in the NCAA tourney. For all of their depth, teams which giv eup 50 FT's rarely win tournament games. And as others have pointed out, while they are deep up front, their depth sucks.
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rosslynhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,595
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Post by rosslynhoya on Feb 7, 2010 15:17:18 GMT -5
Simply stated, Nova's primary defensive strategy is to anesthetize the officials with constant fouling. They commit several fouls on each and every possession, making it well nigh impossible to call them all. Beyond anesthetizing the officials, it also compels them to even out the "foul disparity" by calling ticky-tac checks by the other team, just so that they don't catch hell afterward for whistling one team 38 times and the other team half that.
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Feb 7, 2010 15:20:17 GMT -5
Simply stated, Nova's primary defensive strategy is to anesthetize the officials with constant fouling. They commit several fouls on each and every possession, making it well nigh impossible to call them all. Beyond anesthetizing the officials, it also compels them to even out the "foul disparity" by calling ticky-tac checks by the other team, just so that they don't catch hell afterward for whistling one team 38 times and the other team half that. Good point and very true. What really amazed me was the muggings Nova got away with on Vaughn underneath while Clark was being whistled for hand checks.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
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Post by lichoya68 on Feb 7, 2010 15:56:31 GMT -5
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 7, 2010 18:50:23 GMT -5
In one sense it is dirty when your entire defensive strategy is to fol the other team because you know you can't stay in front of them.
Technically it's not dirty in the same way as most people think of dirty.
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hoyaalf
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
I like what your doing very much. Why squirrel hate me?
Posts: 688
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Post by hoyaalf on Feb 7, 2010 19:25:16 GMT -5
I commend to the board S. Potter's wonderfully witty work on this topic," The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship (or the Art of Winning Games without Actually Cheating)."
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NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,927
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 7, 2010 20:27:53 GMT -5
Beyond anesthetizing the officials, it also compels them to even out the "foul disparity" by calling ticky-tac checks by the other team, just so that they don't catch hell afterward for whistling one team 38 times and the other team half that. Good point and very true. What really amazed me was the muggings Nova got away with on Vaughn underneath while Clark was being whistled for hand checks. Elvado, That is the exact play that made me start this thread. JV was mauled by 3 separate players and it was like the refs just did not care anymore. It Editeded me off because those were pretty hard fouls that warranted a whistle. So I think I agree with the tenor of this thread, it is not dirty, the hoyas used to use this same strategy so do not whine about it, but it is damn annoying and Nova should be embarassed they cannot play us straight up!
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,910
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Post by Filo on Feb 7, 2010 22:48:05 GMT -5
It's annoying as hell, but I don't blame Nova for doing it if it works. You do what you can to win games. Same with Duke's 'player control' defense -- it works for them getting all those charges called underneath. You can despise them for doing it, since it is a pretty lame way to go about winning a game, but you can't really blame them for doing it, since they always get the calls.
What I do have a problem with is when the officiating let's Nova get away with it. I rarely complain about the officiating, but I thought the second half of the Nova game was abysmal and the refs were the only thing that prevented Nova from getting utterly destroyed in that game. In addition to the hacking of Vaughn, there were tons of uncalled muggings (for example, the play when Wright fouled out was preceded by someone from GU (Clark?) getting blatantly fouled but no call was made). The fouls they got away with were atrocious -- I was yelling at my TV for a good part of that second half.
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