None and done

[tpk3]

www.kansascity.com/sports/story/1293180.html

does anyone think this guy will even go to class?

[theexorcist]

Kansas is usually good with making sure that their players get in a minimum of travel and attend class on occasion, so, yes, he'll probably go to class.

The father here seems like he's trying too hard to live out his dreams on his kids.

Also quite strange is the father's concern about being somewhere where fighting breaks out in Europe. I'm assuming that he's concerned about Israel, but that seems to be the only place where there's more of a danger to life than Detroit (ba-ZING).

[Boz]

Wow, that is just really poorly written from start to finish.

That writer may want to go to summer school too. Meanwhile, here are my thoughts:

- It's difficult to find fault with the kids, since they're really just being honest and saying they don't want to go to school. Well, good for them if that's what they want (or don't want, more accurately). Maybe they'll change that thought when they get there; not likely but possible.

I think my problem with this is with the system, not with these kids. They don't want to go to school, but schools want them so they can win, Dad wants them at Kansas so he can re-live his youth, David Stern wants them in school to...well, I really don't know why.

The more I think about it, the more I think the rules need to be changed. I'm not sure which sportswriter has brought this up, I think I've heard Bilas talk about it, but I like the idea of no college requirement necessary, but if you DO go to a college, you have to commit there for at least 2-3 years. Except I'm not sure that's even legal.

[SFHoya99]

David Stern wants them in school because college play provides NBA teams with a much better playing field on which to judge the players. It lowers the risk inherent in talent evaluation, meaning less multi-million contracts are given to guys who can't play.

Players also tend to be a bit more skilled and more used to playing in a team and more used to being coach -- all without the NBA having to pay for that, either in player or coaching salaries.

It also comes with a nice PR benefit across the board -- getting rid of entitled 18 year olds, playing the "we care about education" card and the media generates some hype before the players enter the NBA.

[theexorcist]

Jun 29, 2009 11:55:31 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

David Stern wants them in school because college play provides NBA teams with a much better playing field on which to judge the players. It lowers the risk inherent in talent evaluation, meaning less multi-million contracts are given to guys who can't play.

Players also tend to be a bit more skilled and more used to playing in a team and more used to being coach -- all without the NBA having to pay for that, either in player or coaching salaries.

It also comes with a nice PR benefit across the board -- getting rid of entitled 18 year olds, playing the "we care about education" card and the media generates some hype before the players enter the NBA.

The ironic thing is that college play doesn't really matter in getting drafted - the UCLA frosh was taken despite subpar numbers, and Thabeet was repeatedly schooled.

[dungeon ball]

Kind of a tangential (and admittedly naive) question:

Is it true that players who intend to leave early, whether it be their freshman year or not, can LITERALLY stop attending classes all together in the 2nd semester and remain eligible? I hear commentators, posters, etc. throw around the reference all the time during the "1 and done" debate, and was wondering if they are being literal, or just emphasizing a point. Does the NCAA only look at end of semester results?

[guru]

Jun 29, 2009 13:20:30 GMT -5 dungeon ball said:

Kind of a tangential (and admittedly naive) question:

Is it true that players who intend to leave early, whether it be their freshman year or not, can LITERALLY stop attending classes all together in the 2nd semester and remain eligible? I hear commentators, posters, etc. throw around the reference all the time during the "1 and done" debate, and was wondering if they are being literal, or just emphasizing a point. Does the NCAA only look at end of semester results?

Yes, I think the NCAA and schools only evaluate grades at the end of each semester. So it is possible for a one-and-done to simply stop attending class once the second semester rolls around and to leave school completely whenever the basketball season ends. Hopefully, JT3 has policies in place to prevent this from happening (at least the class attendance during the season to remain eligible; he can't force a kid to stay in school) but I am sure there are MANY schools that look the other way.

[theexorcist]

Jun 29, 2009 13:33:53 GMT -5 guru said:

Jun 29, 2009 13:20:30 GMT -5 dungeon ball said:

Kind of a tangential (and admittedly naive) question:

Is it true that players who intend to leave early, whether it be their freshman year or not, can LITERALLY stop attending classes all together in the 2nd semester and remain eligible? I hear commentators, posters, etc. throw around the reference all the time during the "1 and done" debate, and was wondering if they are being literal, or just emphasizing a point. Does the NCAA only look at end of semester results?

Yes, I think the NCAA and schools only evaluate grades at the end of each semester. So it is possible for a one-and-done to simply stop attending class once the second semester rolls around and to leave school completely whenever the basketball season ends. Hopefully, JT3 has policies in place to prevent this from happening (at least the class attendance during the season to remain eligible; he can't force a kid to stay in school) but I am sure there are MANY schools that look the other way.

This isn't a new phenomenon, FWIW - the most famous example came with Andrew Gaze, who, legend has it, left Seton Hall two or three days after the 1989 NCAA final.

[hifigator]

Jun 29, 2009 13:20:30 GMT -5 dungeon ball said:

Kind of a tangential (and admittedly naive) question:

Is it true that players who intend to leave early, whether it be their freshman year or not, can LITERALLY stop attending classes all together in the 2nd semester and remain eligible? I hear commentators, posters, etc. throw around the reference all the time during the "1 and done" debate, and was wondering if they are being literal, or just emphasizing a point. Does the NCAA only look at end of semester results?

That used to be the case, but now the schools are required to track "progress reports." This came about after our good friend Deion Sanders as FSU. He made it very clear that he was leaving after the current year and FSU's Spring Semester wasn't starting until after the last Bowl Game. Of course that was pre-BCS, but the point wast that once he was eligible for the fall, he stayed that way until after he was planning on leaving. I would have warned against that anyway, since if the player wants to come back at a later date to get his degree, he will at least have to retake those courses, if not do even more work. Additionally, if he had gotten injured somewhere along the way, then his future career could have been in jeopardy. In any case, the NCAA adopted what is casually called the Deion rule, and the athletes must remain academically eligible throughout the season. But from what I understand, this is sort of an ad-hoc system which the University is responsible for administering. Additionally, if the athlete isn't eligible, then it is handled internally as well. I'm sure that's 100% on the up and up ... yeah, right.


Boz wrote:

The more I think about it, the more I think the rules need to be changed. I'm not sure which sportswriter has brought this up, I think I've heard Bilas talk about it, but I like the idea of no college requirement necessary, but if you DO go to a college, you have to commit there for at least 2-3 years. Except I'm not sure that's even legal.

That is sort of how both baseball and football do it, so I'm sure it could be done "legally." In baseball, you are committing to a 3 year agreement. You can sign pro right out of high-school or you can go to a Junion college and then be eligible for the next year's draft. But if you sign with a 4 year school and then enroll in classes, then you are off limits to the draft for 3 years. I don't know if there is some petition system to handle extended circumstances, like a family illness or something, but I don't remember ever hearing about them. There is an exception for the older athletes though. If the student-athlete turns 20 before some predetemined date, then he's eligible for the next draft, regardless of how long he's been out of school.

I think football's rule is simpler. You must be 2 years removed from your high school graduating class or have reached the minimum age -- 20 also, I think.

In any case, I would like to see basketball adopt something like baseball, but maybe at the 2 year mark. The big difference of course, is that baseball has the minor leagues to groom the players. Basketball really has no such system.

[mapei]

But basketball should have such a system. It's a joke that decent academic institutions like Georgetown should be running NBA JV teams for kids who have to pretend to care about school when they really don't. If they *want* to be in school (see, e.g., Hibbert, R; Wallace, J), I welcome them. But, if that isn't their interest, they shouldn't have to go through the motions and the schools shouldn't have to subsidize them.

The baseball system sounds good to me, and football at least better than what we have in hoops.

[SFHoya99]

Huh on the football... The system for football is the NCAA doesn't look too closely. There's zero avenue outside of major college football.

The baseball model is nice, but be careful what you wish for -- most of the elite baseball players never see college, and the game's popularity has suffered partially because of that.

[CTHoya08]

Jun 29, 2009 21:03:31 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Huh on the football... The system for football is the NCAA doesn't look too closely. There's zero avenue outside of major college football.

The baseball model is nice, but be careful what you wish for -- most of the elite baseball players never see college, and the game's popularity has suffered partially because of that.

I could be wrong on this, and feel free to rip this post apart if I am, but isn't major league baseball posting record attendance numbers and revenues, despite the recent steroid controversies? I find it very hard to believe that professional baseball is suffering because many of the top players don't play in college; before going to law school in Tennessee, I never met anyone who cared about college baseball. At all. And I live in one of the few parts of the country where baseball is undoubtedly more popular than the NFL. I think the difference is that while football and basketball emerged at the college level, baseball dates back to the nineteenth century as a professional sport.

That being said, the baseball system is far from perfect: only American players are subject to the draft, teams cannot trade draft picks, etc. I do like the rule that makes players wait if they opt to go to school, and I especially like the fact that entering the draft does not eliminate a player's eligibility to play in college.

[SFHoya99]

I wasn't saying that the NBA should be careful what they wish for ... I was saying that college basketball would suffer.

[sleepy]

Jun 29, 2009 20:22:09 GMT -5 mapei said:

But basketball should have such a system. It's a joke that decent academic institutions like Georgetown should be running NBA JV teams for kids who have to pretend to care about school when they really don't. If they *want* to be in school (see, e.g., Hibbert, R; Wallace, J), I welcome them. But, if that isn't their interest, they shouldn't have to go through the motions and the schools shouldn't have to subsidize them.

The baseball system sounds good to me, and football at least better than what we have in hoops.

I think in the end the rule benefits the majority of players just as much as it does college and NBA teams. Take a guy like Durant for example. No way he would have gone to college had there not been a rule in place, but after being there he had a really good expierence and is now taking classes to get his degree. Then there are the Odens and Loves, who probably wouldn't have gone either, but bought into their systems and enjoyed it as well as getting a small fan following going into the league. Most of all this rule benefits guys like Monroe and Samuals and Thabeet, who all probably want to go to college but given the choice of playing for free for a year and getting paid, would have had to have choosen getting paid. None of those guys would have faired well their first year in the NBA. It also benifits guys like Macklin who would have gone straight to the NBA and that would be the end of them.
So yea, while there are a few cases of the rule just making teams into a mini nba team and guys not wanting to be there at all, I think there are far more cases where the rule benefits everyone involved.
I would also say the bigger problem is the school not the rule. You won't see a player like that at UNC, Georgetown, Duke, etc, because these schools and coaches make their players go to class and generally don't recruit players that don't want to be there.
I also don't really like the idea of you can go NBA or college but if you go to college you have to stay for 2 or 3 years. You could end up pushing players to declare so they don't end up trapped in college even when there stock is at its highest or something crazy like that.

[whatmaroon]

Jun 29, 2009 16:19:22 GMT -5 hifigator said:

I think football's rule is simpler. You must be 2 years removed from your high school graduating class or have reached the minimum age -- 20 also, I think.

The NFL's rule is 3 years removed from your high school graduating class, so true junior or redshirt sophomore is the earliest you can come out.

The only quasi-exception of late has been Larry Fitzgerald, who only spent 2 years at Pitt. But, he transferred midway through his senior year of high school to Fort Union (IIRC) and spent a year and a half there. The NFL decided that since unlike Clarett, he might be able to win a court challenge against them he was in good standing and on track to graduate on time when he transferred to Fort Union, they would let him enter the draft.

[Boz]

Nice use of the strikethrough!

;D ;D

[EasyEd]

His sophomore year, didn't Allen Iverson stop going to class before the spring semester was completed? Does anyone know if he stopped before the basketball season was over? When did he and his Mercedes show up?

[kchoya]

Jun 30, 2009 9:22:42 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

His sophomore year, didn't Allen Iverson stop going to class before the spring semester was completed? Does anyone know if he stopped before the basketball season was over? When did he and his Mercedes show up?

Great, someone else for the old man to hate on.

[bmartin]

Baseball is so different because of the farm systems. The draft is 50 rounds and most draftees are not expected to get past AA. They are paid to provide teammates and competitors for the real prospects.

[Buckets]

Jun 30, 2009 9:22:42 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

His sophomore year, didn't Allen Iverson stop going to class before the spring semester was completed? Does anyone know if he stopped before the basketball season was over? When did he and his Mercedes show up?

I thought everyone with a guaranteed job offer once the year ended tried extra super duper hard their last semester at Georgetown. I don't know what to believe in anymore