hoopsmccan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,429
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Post by hoopsmccan on Jul 8, 2008 8:50:01 GMT -5
Good points MCI. I've watched some of the games in awe - not only of the speed, defense, hustle, etc., but also the wasted trips, missed layups, general sloppiness as a result of the frenetic pace. Also, watching two '96 games last night, I think each team would have fouled out in the first half if the games were called like games are now. Easy to see why teams hated us - alot of quick elbows, little pushes, no free layups...loved to see the teams that made me a huge fan before I even knew anything about the university, let alone had thoughts about attending.
Great to watch the old teams play, but I love the current style which will open up as the talent/athletes continue to make their way to the hilltop.
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,177
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Post by idhoya on Jul 8, 2008 9:42:58 GMT -5
Watched Zo in '90 versus Nova. He talked alot. At one point he blocked Rodney Taylor's shot out of bounds, said something to him and Taylor said "shut the f__ up! On camera. Deke and Zo were soooo intimidating. That team had Bryant, Tillmon, Deke and Zo. It also had a "lost in headlights" Michael Tate-Venson. I remember telling my boy in college that Georgetown would win a NC while Zo was there. He never lets me forget that.
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hoyasexy
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Actively engaged in extramarital saxa
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Post by hoyasexy on Jul 8, 2008 10:29:24 GMT -5
Sure I would love to see III's team be more dominant on the boards and see a lot more fast breaks. But what do you give up in return? Oh, I see. You guys want the Hoyas to retain the same offensive efficiency, the same team approach and cutting on offense, the same high percentage shooting, the same ability to not foul the opposing teams and play smart defense in the halfcourt as well as bringing back the dominance on the glass, the same full court pressure, the same fast break style of the Ewing and Iverson eras and the same hardnose attitude and arrogance that the best JT Jr. teams had. Oh, well, that would be like the best team....of all time. And its almost impossible for any team to have all of those traits. So instead you'd have to put less emphasis on one or two things the Hoyas do well now to put more emphasis on one or two things the Hoyas did well back in the day. I'm not sure I agree 100%. While some people have longed for certain aspects, such as penetrating guard play, that would require a fundamental change in our offense, not all tweaks would require the team to give up other strengths. Granted, one thing that would improve transition play would be to overplay passing lanes, which would likely decrease our overall defensive efficiency by giving up easy shots when a steal is not produced. That said, I don't think that an increased focus on rebounding (which itself could create transition opportunities) would necessarily have detrimental effects in other areas. In fact, it has struck me as odd that JTIII's teams have been relatively innefective on the defensive glass, given that their defensive strengths have always been positioning and hustle.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jul 8, 2008 12:55:36 GMT -5
You can't compare eras--and what was seen as "inconsistent offense" back in Ewing Era would be the top offensive team in country in today's basketball--which is ruined by the 3pt shot. It's concept is great--but it's ruined how kids play the game. I think it's great watching guys score/have mid range game and putting up points without that line and guys hoisting up 3's all of the damn time. You also had 15 scholarship players, more toughness in people--I mean some of the stuff that didn't get called back then would be an automatic ejection today. I just hate how soft sports has become.
As for rebounding--it was about effort/fight--and it doesn't matter what style you play--that can be added. Who is tougher? Who wants the ball? That is rebounding--also you noticed much better job of boxing out by older Hoya teams and see how lazy Georgetown staff got as years passed of enforcing it to players. Nobody is perfect--but I'd like to think you can offensively efficient but also run and compete like your life depends on it on the glass. You see it in flashes-see the PE JR rebound against UNC in Elite 8--that is type of rebound/effort you need/can demand without sacrificing anything offensively.
Ewing was a BEAST---and one common theme--hearing Billy Raftery say "Hoyas need to get INSERT BIG MAN HERE ball more--they don't look to him enough". That sums up CBB--guys don't realize what a weapon they have on court with them.
One negative of older games--see a lot more flopping/charges then remembered originally and I hate that--no matter the era.
Funniest thing--in '89 Providence-Hoya game--there is a promo for the Duke-UNC game which was following--and amazingly--Dick Vitale and Mike Patrick had the call of that one. (btw--notice the lack of overkill/hyping compared to today--where they'd have a pre game show on ESPN Pie Squared to discuss how Jesus would fare facing Hansbrough in a toughness contest)
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,427
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 8, 2008 13:29:37 GMT -5
As for rebounding--it was about effort/fight--and it doesn't matter what style you play--that can be added. Who is tougher? Who wants the ball? That is rebounding--also you noticed much better job of boxing out by older Hoya teams Okay, but if your bigs are away from the basket half the times because on offense they are asked to spread out over the court and keep the lane clear and on defense they are required to switch and defend guards on the perimeter then its going to hurt your rebounding numbers. Folks, that's just a fact. Even if Monroe averaged 10 rebounds under JTIII it could also mean that for a more traditional team he would have averaged 14 rebounds, There is a reason why III's and Beilein's teams tended to never be great at rebounding and that's the scheme. You have to take the good with the bad IMO. I could be wrong. ;D
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jul 8, 2008 14:29:05 GMT -5
As for rebounding--it was about effort/fight--and it doesn't matter what style you play--that can be added. Who is tougher? Who wants the ball? That is rebounding--also you noticed much better job of boxing out by older Hoya teams Okay, but if your bigs are away from the basket half the times because on offense they are asked to spread out over the court and keep the lane clear and on defense they are required to switch and defend guards on the perimeter then its going to hurt your rebounding numbers. Folks, that's just a fact. Even if Monroe averaged 10 rebounds under JTIII it could also mean that for a more traditional team he would have averaged 14 rebounds, There is a reason why III's and Beilein's teams tended to never be great at rebounding and that's the scheme. You have to take the good with the bad IMO. I could be wrong. ;D Well--you saw a lot more aggressive/attacking from guys--no matter if they were big or not--flying to glass and not conceding things. Get what you are saying in part--but it was a different attitude/guys were going to get balls and not just staying in their area and watching--but you also had deeper teams--more players to use in those days and could risk the fouls more then today where drop from 5th guy to 9th is larger then back in day.
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AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
Posts: 1,481
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Jul 8, 2008 14:53:32 GMT -5
Okay, but if your bigs are away from the basket half the times because on offense they are asked to spread out over the court and keep the lane clear and on defense they are required to switch and defend guards on the perimeter then its going to hurt your rebounding numbers. Folks, that's just a fact. Even if Monroe averaged 10 rebounds under JTIII it could also mean that for a more traditional team he would have averaged 14 rebounds, There is a reason why III's and Beilein's teams tended to never be great at rebounding and that's the scheme. You have to take the good with the bad IMO. I could be wrong. ;D Well--you saw a lot more aggressive/attacking from guys--no matter if they were big or not--flying to glass and not conceding things. Get what you are saying in part--but it was a different attitude/guys were going to get balls and not just staying in their area and watching--but you also had deeper teams--more players to use in those days and could risk the fouls more then today where drop from 5th guy to 9th is larger then back in day. RDF, I wholeheartedly agree. My point about rebounding was that most of Big John's teams attacked the boards. It wasn't just about the bigs. I really don't think JT III's teams have had that approach and don't see why they can't be better on the boards.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Jul 8, 2008 15:00:30 GMT -5
That 84-85 was unbelievably fast. Seriously, they could win a track meet. Seeing those guys on the fast break is just unreal.
Also, seeing these games, just how hard Pops' teams hustled and fought hard on the court.
I never got a chance to see those teams. Only from old footage like this. This is great.
Its been like heaven the past several hours.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 8, 2008 15:47:42 GMT -5
The Final Four team was one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the country. Period. That's a fact -- so we have had great offensive rebounding teams under III. The system didn't hurt us -- playing two of three frontcourt positions small hurt us.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 8, 2008 16:29:34 GMT -5
Rebounding... watch how Jerome boxes out, and also how he "seals guys in". They got position on him? he "seals them in tight to the basket. If the rebound comes out just a little, the other guys are suddenly to close the basket and he has the open area outside all to himself.
That cat was one smart cookie around the boards. And aggressive as hell.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
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Post by bmartin on Jul 8, 2008 16:35:22 GMT -5
More rebounds are available if you make good shooters give up the ball or take contested shots.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 8, 2008 16:38:59 GMT -5
Lets not forget you are seeing mostly those old JT teams at their best. Not the games in which the Hoyas made a name for themselves as being woeful shooters and a bit too disorganized on offense. Not the games in which the Hoyas fullcourt press wasn't working and the Hoyas had to prove themselves strictly in the halfcourt game. And, yes, from everything I read and was told they had that reputation as often sluggish on offense even during the Ewing years. Sure I would love to see III's team be more dominant on the boards and see a lot more fast breaks. But what do you give up in return? Oh, I see. You guys want the Hoyas to retain the same offensive efficiency, the same team approach and cutting on offense, the same high percentage shooting, the same ability to not foul the opposing teams and play smart defense in the halfcourt as well as bringing back the dominance on the glass, the same full court pressure, the same fast break style of the Ewing and Iverson eras and the same hardnose attitude and arrogance that the best JT Jr. teams had. Oh, well, that would be like the best team....of all time. And its almost impossible for any team to have all of those traits. So instead you'd have to put less emphasis on one or two things the Hoyas do well now to put more emphasis on one or two things the Hoyas did well back in the day. 1. I don't really remember us being sluggish on offense during the Ewing years. OK, we had 2-3 crappy games each year, or maybe a brief cold spell on the court, but would not describe that as "sluggish" You also hear people say Ewing only learned offense after he left GU, or only in his last year or two. That's BS. He could shoot... and he could score around the basket too. He was just soooo.... "Bill Russell" on D that people didn't appreciate his offense. As for all those trade-offs you mention... I've gone though the same thought process many times. BUT, the we aren't (or I'm not) talking about completely chucking the Princeton and the JT3 Defense. I DO think there are opportunities to take advantage of the break....with a loose ball, with a long board. AND.... when teams press us... make them PAY. Just getting across mid-court to set up the offense isn't enough and it will never force teams to STOP pressing. We've got the horses now. ATTACK the press... go for the score. Use the imbalance FOR us. Put the other team back on their heels. If we don't have the advantage or the numbers... vs. the press or otherwise, then get into the offense quickly. Run it fast. Make it happen. I don't believe JT3 tells the team they have to run 30 seconds of offense before they can take a shot, I think he says run the offense until we see a good, open shot -- then TAKE IT. Maybe that needs to be emphasized more. But we have advantages is quickness, shooting ability, athletic ability, size in many cases... let's use it. Anyway, that's my feeling.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Jul 8, 2008 19:55:21 GMT -5
OK, so how many of you bought the "ShamWow!"?
C'mon, it's made in Germany.... you know they make good stuff. Second Set absolutely Free!
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,177
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Post by idhoya on Jul 8, 2008 23:26:23 GMT -5
I didn't get that, but I bought those Christian CD's!
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AvantGuardHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
"It was when I found out I could make mistakes that I knew I was on to something."
Posts: 1,481
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Jul 9, 2008 6:08:08 GMT -5
I got 'em both!
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,177
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Post by idhoya on Jul 9, 2008 8:38:53 GMT -5
I wanna go back. I'm telling you it was the best decade. Other than Reaganomics and Crack Cocaine it was great!
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tlphoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 431
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Post by tlphoya on Jul 9, 2008 9:24:58 GMT -5
I have the games from the espnu marathon recorded and can put on dvd's. Even better is that they are in the process of being made commercial free!
Except what was up with the 2001 Syracuse game on last night? I was under the impression we WON all the games they showed. I might delete that one.
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kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,997
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Post by kghoya on Jul 9, 2008 9:55:26 GMT -5
I have the games from the espnu marathon recorded and can put on dvd's. Even better is that they are in the process of being made commercial free! Except what was up with the 2001 Syracuse game on last night? I was under the impression we WON all the games they showed. I might delete that one. yeah why did they play that one??? i have it on my dvr but im not sure i want to put it on dvd i mean its cool to have old games to see the old players and remember what was...but i dont see myself watching many old games again...let alone a loss im going to keep going to the carrier dome until i see the hoyas get a win up there...thats my story and im sticking to it
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tgo
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 803
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Post by tgo on Jul 9, 2008 10:14:37 GMT -5
espn networks dont talk to each other i guess since the 82 championship game was on classic during the espn u marathon. since i couldnt get espn u i watched the championship game for the first time. two things you immediately notice: sleepy was sooo smooth and we really pushed it up the court against unc in that game. a third would be james worthy- wow.
great game, it felt like we were going to pull it out when i watched it last night but my tivo cut off the recording with 2 min to play so i will have to assume we won.
whats up with that espn classic? a two hour program pre-recorded program that runs over for time, how does that possibly ever happen?
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DallasHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,636
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Post by DallasHoya on Jul 9, 2008 10:21:20 GMT -5
The '85 game at St. Johns brought back the old memories. Some things I forgot:
1. How much of a greyhound/athlete Ewing was. He had bulked up in his last years in the NBA I had forgotten how lean he was at GU. And those shorts shorts just accentuated it.
2. How great a shooter Reggie was. I could never figure out why wasn't an all-pro in the NBA. Must have been the curse of the Clippers.
3. How deep we were in 1985. Against St. Johns, Martin fouls out, Jackson is way off his game, yet we still win by 20.
4. How effeminate a player Grady Mateen was. I think he was actually Ohio player of year in HS. Maybe it was the women's player of the year.
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