fatthew
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by fatthew on Feb 26, 2008 13:28:02 GMT -5
In all seriousness, is there any way that RDF could get a rebuttal column published in The Hoya?
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Feb 26, 2008 13:40:09 GMT -5
Here's the problem with your rants, RDF. You're attacking Esherick as if he wrote the Hoya article as a defense of himself. He did not; some college kid who didn't attend the school while he coached and probably has never met him wrote an opinion piece that includes numerous misstatements of fact defending a man he's probably never met. Why, then, rail against Esherick, four years after he's been dismissed? The program has returned to glory under its new coach, and the team has clearly moved on. What do you accomplish by attacking the man? What purpose does it serve?
It strikes me that some of you write as if you believe that Esherick owes YOU an apology, rather than the contrary. Given that we are now doing quite well, and you can currently very much enjoy being a Hoya fan, and he did not, in fact "destroy" the program, why do you need that apology?
This all strikes me as a bunch of embittered exes seeking closure after a bad breakup.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 26, 2008 13:56:22 GMT -5
"This all strikes me as a bunch of embittered exes seeking closure after a bad breakup."
That's a good analogy, hoyatables. But let's face it, it was inevitable that once this thread got started, it would go in exactly this direction. Many thanks (not) to Mr. Nixon for forcing us to focus once again on the bad old days rather than the current good old days.
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Post by jerseyshorehoya on Feb 26, 2008 14:07:04 GMT -5
2. I can say with 100% certainty that walk-on guard Tom Lang (C'88) did not say it was an unrealistic expectation to make it to the NCAA's every single year. His father did, and given his direct knowledge of Georgetown's institutional commitment at that time versus other Big East schools, I believe this to be an accurate statement at this time. 1. Terrific posts by RDF; only things missing are references to Van's infamous final post and Lang's analogizing of the then-current state of the Georgetown program to post 9/11 New York City. 2. DFW. You state that Lang's off-debated Clintonesque unreasonable expectations vs goals statement was based on his knowledge of Georgetown's institutional commitment at the time. However, less than two months later at the Hoya Hoop Club meeting at the BET following the loss to Boston College, he had seemed to backpedal from that statement; stating in fact, that he was ready to do what it took to turn the basketball program around. Esherick was fired soonafter. What changed in his grasp of the schools insitutional commitment in those two months? 3. IMHO, Victorino Matus' articles The Decline and Fall of Hoya Nation and Hoya Liberation Day, which each hang on the wall of my home office, are in essence "The Godfather" and "The Godfather II" when it comes to definitive pieces of journalism on the Esherick situation. Must reading for any of those who read today's drivel in the Hoya and are too young to remember. www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/265agkwp.aspwww.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/870umjzw.asp
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Feb 26, 2008 14:14:25 GMT -5
Although The Hoya doesn't publish in the summer, this is the type of discussion best left to the offseason, or at least to the fall when the paper is busy not covering football (although coverage has been much better over the past 2 years). Since it's February, I'll simply say I agree with just about everything SirSaxa and sbgorms covered on Page 1 and leave it at that.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by theexorcist on Feb 26, 2008 14:15:43 GMT -5
Hoyatables and DFW:
I'd like to respond to both. I'll do separate ones.
DFW - "nobody cared about the program" seems to me to be overspeaking for its own sake. Obviously people cared about the program. But moving from 8,500 to 17,000 for a game against a .500 team, with people across the country watching, is a significant change. Major college basketball, even bad major college basketball, will draw something.
Hoyatables and DFW on the "rear view mirror":
I'm trying to come up with a good analogy. One that kind of works is the Redskins. Imagine asking Daniel Snyder how he's done as an owner and being told that he'll be an owner for the next thirty years and that the Redskins are lucky to have him. Only it's worse, because alumni and students identify much more heavily with their college.
I never signed the petition. I never participated in the rally. But I was furious at Georgetown by both Lang and Esherick's comments. Esh's comments, like I indicated before, indicated no lack of contrition. Until he apologizes for that, or at least indicates that he was overzealous in his comments, I feel no desire to welcome him back into the fold. When Dan Snyder is finally ousted as a leader of the Redskins and some lobbying zillionare has them ruling the NFC East, I don't think that many Redskins fans are going to be nice to Snyder just because he's a Redskins fan, too.
These sentiments will fade in time. But they're still a nasty reminder. Until Esh apologizes for his total lack of acceptance of responsibility for Georgetown collapsing, the burden of the apology is on him.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Feb 26, 2008 14:16:16 GMT -5
great read rdf
im sure the writer for that piece in the hoya is happy to be reading the discussion on this board...he got what he wanted
now on to the rest of the 2007-2008 season...we have some work left to do
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hoyaclap
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by hoyaclap on Feb 26, 2008 14:32:21 GMT -5
Rest in Misery? really? I really expect more from a vet of this board.
I will state early on that I am a personal fan of Craig Esherick. I have always respected him and his time to the University. Although there were a (large) number of times that I disagreed with some his decisions and the direction of the program, I understand that it was not all due to him. I agreed with the fact that it was time to change course with letting him go, but I was troubled by the vote of confidence from the administration only to turn their back on the days later. (They should have said nothing if they were so easily swayed by booster forces, or at least built a coalition to bolster their support.) Members of the team who didn't even like Esherick met with DeGoia after it went through to discuss their problems with the way it all happened.
Despite how we feel about Esherick's record while HC, i think it is important to note again that his is an alum and dedicated virtually all of his professional life to the university despite opportunities otherwise. He help the water for a program that was leaky when he received it, and his greatest fault was being unable to fix those holes. Maybe he didn't have the personality to be the head coach of our program, especially at that time, but I find much of his criticism to be sophomoric and personal.
It's understandable that Esherick wouldn't want to show to the commemorative banquet...I'm sure many of us on this board under similar circumstances would not be comfortable with showing to a positive event like that where you maintain hard feelings for many of the key players and celebrate much of the current success which people are quick to diminish his contributions to those very achievements.
it is incredibly sad to see so many Georgetown fans get off on getting another man fired from his job. I am proud of the accomplishments that the program has made since Esherick, and I don't think he would have been able to do them himself, but the end of his tenure was a sad, not happy day for the program.
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 26, 2008 14:32:26 GMT -5
I'm not an Esherick apologist but I do think Pops got off light for turning tail in the middle of the season -- not saying he hadn't earned the right to do it, but he did the program no favors by forcing the job on a guy who was not prepared for it.
Like others here, I was puzzled by the events surrounding Esh's departure. Some of it was probably due to the school's unfamiliarity with that type of situation -- not much precedent I can think of.
My almost completely uninformed speculation is that JTIII had been in the works during the season (perhaps as early as that disasterous loss to SJU's intramural squad) and that Jack changed stripes only when it became clear he would take the job. Not sure I buy the alumni revolt argument -- Jack had been hearing it for a long time.
Despite everyone's best intentions, sometimes it just doesn't work out. That's all there is to this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2008 14:33:20 GMT -5
Until Esh apologizes for his total lack of acceptance of responsibility for Georgetown collapsing, the burden of the apology is on him. I'm sure Craig lies awake at night thinking "I better apologize to everyone who cares about Georgetown basketball." Look, the guy was not a good coach. He was arrogant, and he didn't recruit, and he couldn't do all the things JT3 apparently can do and is committed to doing. And he lost his job because of some combination of all those things. But I'm guessing he worked to the best of his abilities. Sometimes, people get in over their heads. Does that mean he should apologize? If I screwed up my job and got fired tomorrow, I'm not sure I'd be in an apologizing mood.... ever. I don't think Craig deserves that burden either. He'll come back when (and if) he's ready. If he does, good for him. And if he chooses to stay away, good for him too. It's his call, and so far he has chosen to stay away. So be it. But if he comes back, can't we all at least show him a shred of respect? A little bit of "being the bigger person"? Jeez. We're in Year 4 of the JT3 era, went to Final Four last year, are 22-4, 12-3 this year, are recruiting top-level talent across the board for next year and beyond, and we're talking about Esherick.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 26, 2008 14:38:42 GMT -5
Here's the problem with your rants, RDF. You're attacking Esherick as if he wrote the Hoya article as a defense of himself. He did not; some college kid who didn't attend the school while he coached and probably has never met him wrote an opinion piece that includes numerous misstatements of fact defending a man he's probably never met. Why, then, rail against Esherick, four years after he's been dismissed? The program has returned to glory under its new coach, and the team has clearly moved on. What do you accomplish by attacking the man? What purpose does it serve? It strikes me that some of you write as if you believe that Esherick owes YOU an apology, rather than the contrary. Given that we are now doing quite well, and you can currently very much enjoy being a Hoya fan, and he did not, in fact "destroy" the program, why do you need that apology? This all strikes me as a bunch of embittered exes seeking closure after a bad breakup. You are way offbase. I'm attacking the mentality that FANS NEED TO FORGIVE A MAN who brought the attitude on by his actions/words. If he just coached his teams in the poor manner he did and was replaced--nothing would be there to discuss. It's his words to the fans--which were--as I stated previously-- simply a "**** off" along with the fact he stated Georgetown/fanbase was "LUCKY to have him as the head coach". What is there not to be angry about? I've been loyal to this program for 28 years now. Through highs/lows, disappointments, suprisingly good years, etc...and all I wanted to see was a new coach because the coach who was doing his job was failing. It wasn't personal--it was just hoping the program could turn around. For those who weren't around on the old board---you don't have any clue as to the suggestions ALL OF US who were had to improve the program/selling points--which amazingly have all been done by the current program. It wasn't just us "acting important"-it was caring about Georgetown/Georgetown basketball. Instead of hope--we often were responded to with: 1. That will NEVER happen 2. That won't work- 3. Esherick isn't going anywhere-so your talk of a new coach is pointless Excuse, after excuse, after excuse. Nothing is as bad/great as it seems-but you can't improve if you only focus on the negative. Instead of trying a different method--Esherick became publicly defiant and told fans off. His brother went after a paying customer/fan who had every damn right to voice their displeasure at the job of his brother. They told us off. They basically were saying "We'll run this program into the ground and be around no matter what you that care about it think and there isn't a thing you can do about it". They ignored the fact we're loyal and just wanted improvements--and we're supposed to apologize? Screw that. That is why I'm outraged. To say you have to apologize to someone is when you were in the wrong--not when you were correct and the individual brings it upon his/herself. As for "jilted" feeling. Complete manure. Do you see any of us bring up this guy? Only time we comment is when something like this or someone feels bad for him and thinks Georgetown/fanbase "owes" him an apology. We don't owe Esherick a thing. He got his degree, opportunity to coach, and he told us what he thought of us who stuck by him/the program through dark times what he thought of us. I think it's appropriate that he show up for Senior Day for Hibbert/Tyler (Pat/Wallace aren't his recruits) but if he's not--I could care less. He had his chance--didn't get it done--but it was his actions/words that told Georgetown, it's fans, of what we meant--which was nothing and what was to be expected of the program--nothing. So why should we apologize? If this was about Esherick in general--you wouldn't have heard a peep from me--but the angle of the article was enough to set me off and I really hope this kid who wrote this goes back and watches every minute of that "era" and looks up in archives the commentary/actions Esherick/Blake the "Bonecrusher" carried out--it was dispicable, disgusting, and invited the type of response it got. He was dismissed, rightly so, and I don't care one damn moment whether he likes/doesn't like how things went down--he caused it. Don't start a fight you can't win and expect the people you antagonize to feel badly for how you exited. I dont' want an apology from Esherick--I just never want to hear about how unfairly he was treated. Brought it upon himself and that writer needs to understand that.
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Cambridge
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Canes Pugnaces
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 26, 2008 14:39:21 GMT -5
2. I can say with 100% certainty that walk-on guard Tom Lang (C'88) did not say it was an unrealistic expectation to make it to the NCAA's every single year. His father did, and given his direct knowledge of Georgetown's institutional commitment at that time versus other Big East schools, I believe this to be an accurate statement at this time. 1. Terrific posts by RDF; only things missing are references to Van's infamous final post and Lang's analogizing of the then-current state of the Georgetown program to post 9/11 New York City. 2. DFW. You state that Lang's off-debated Clintonesque unreasonable expectations vs goals statement was based on his knowledge of Georgetown's institutional commitment at the time. However, less than two months later at the Hoya Hoop Club meeting at the BET following the loss to Boston College, he had seemed to backpedal from that statement; stating in fact, that he was ready to do what it took to turn the basketball program around. Esherick was fired soonafter. What changed in his grasp of the schools insitutional commitment in those two months? 3. IMHO, Victorino Matus' articles The Decline and Fall of Hoya Liberation Day, which each hang on the wall of my home office are in essence The Godfather and The Godfather II of journalism when it comes to definitive pieces of journalism on the Esherick situation. Must reading for any of those who read today's drivel in the Hoya and are too young to remember. www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/265agkwp.aspwww.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/870umjzw.aspGreat reads. Simply amazing.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 26, 2008 14:48:14 GMT -5
Until Esh apologizes for his total lack of acceptance of responsibility for Georgetown collapsing, the burden of the apology is on him. I'm sure Craig lies awake at night thinking "I better apologize to everyone who cares about Georgetown basketball." Look, the guy was not a good coach. He was arrogant, and he didn't recruit, and he couldn't do all the things JT3 apparently can do and is committed to doing. And he lost his job because of some combination of all those things. But I'm guessing he worked to the best of his abilities. Sometimes, people get in over their heads. Does that mean he should apologize? If I screwed up my job and got fired tomorrow, I'm not sure I'd be in an apologizing mood.... ever. I don't think Craig deserves that burden either. He'll come back when (and if) he's ready. If he does, good for him. And if he chooses to stay away, good for him too. It's his call, and so far he has chosen to stay away. So be it. But if he comes back, can't we all at least show him a shred of respect? A little bit of "being the bigger person"? Jeez. We're in Year 4 of the JT3 era, went to Final Four last year, are 22-4, 12-3 this year, are recruiting top-level talent across the board for next year and beyond, and we're talking about Esherick. Exactly--but the fanbase who didn't care for Esherick didn't bring this CRAP up, the student writer who wasn't around did. I don't think Esherick should apologize to anyone--but I certainly don't think Georgetown or it's fanbase needs to say a thing to him/about him in an apologetic tone. Everyone here is focused on the season-and this junk comes up. I saw it-debated upon whether to read it or not--and then saw the theme--and was IRATE. This was disgusting and inappropriate. Why should Georgetown have to apologize? Why should Esherick even be thought about right now? It's time to move on--but if you plan on writing something in this manner--expect to learn some things about Hoya Basketball, why it went down, and why the level of frustration grew to the level where fans were angry at the end.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Feb 26, 2008 15:14:52 GMT -5
. . . For those who weren't around on the old board---you don't have any clue as to the suggestions ALL OF US who were had to improve the program/selling points--which amazingly have all been done by the current program. . . . . . . To say you have to apologize to someone is when you were in the wrong--not when you were correct and the individual brings it upon his/herself. As for "jilted" feeling. Complete manure. Do you see any of us bring up this guy? Only time we comment is when something like this or someone feels bad for him and thinks Georgetown/fanbase "owes" him an apology. We don't owe Esherick a thing. He got his degree, opportunity to coach, and he told us what he thought of us who stuck by him/the program through dark times what he thought of us. I think it's appropriate that he show up for Senior Day for Hibbert/Tyler (Pat/Wallace aren't his recruits) but if he's not--I could care less. He had his chance--didn't get it done--but it was his actions/words that told Georgetown, it's fans, of what we meant--which was nothing and what was to be expected of the program--nothing. So why should we apologize? If this was about Esherick in general--you wouldn't have heard a peep from me--but the angle of the article was enough to set me off and I really hope this kid who wrote this goes back and watches every minute of that "era" and looks up in archives the commentary/actions Esherick/Blake the "Bonecrusher" carried out--it was dispicable, disgusting, and invited the type of response it got. He was dismissed, rightly so, and I don't care one damn moment whether he likes/doesn't like how things went down--he caused it. Don't start a fight you can't win and expect the people you antagonize to feel badly for how you exited. I dont' want an apology from Esherick--I just never want to hear about how unfairly he was treated. Brought it upon himself and that writer needs to understand that. RDF -- your problem is with the article -- respond to the damn writer then. Your point -- that you don't think you have to "apologize" to Craig Esherick is absolutely valid. The writer of the article is an idiot for suggesting as much. But why do you need to go off on exaggerated rants about Esherick's failings, as if he is still harming you personally, much less the program? Esherick may not deserve an apology, but he also doesn't deserve to be verbally assaulted. ON EDIT: I thought Cam's post was spot on and I also thought RDF's response was much more even-keeled. I've no problem with an education lesson for the article's author, but I also don't understand why we need to have a hatefest around here. ON EDIT 2: Rather than pull a HFE, I'll respond in here to say that SFHoya99's post below is well said as well. The article is junk. End of story.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 26, 2008 15:18:14 GMT -5
Comments on Esherick aside (and I'm in the middle ... he was a mediocre head coach, which is to say a poor head coach for a major school, but some of the complaints I think are silly -- the NIT banner was a great motivational tool to me at the time; the Sweetney rant was overproduced but fine, and the idea that Jeff would have intentionally failed his SAT is BASELESS, but I'll never forgive him for Shan Foster.)
That said, what intrigues me more is this idea that terminating someone's employment as leader of an organization is disloyal. That somehow, someone can earn more than five years of opportunity to perform.
Georgetown was loyal to Thompson and Esherick. When Thompson retired mid-season, we retained Esherick past the season with no search when he went 8-10. He had another BE losing season, then had his one good season.
Then he squandered a dominant low post threat for two more years and watched as he couldn't retain recruits.
Loyalty got him a FAIR opportunity for five and one half years. In that time, it became clear that teams under Esherick did not outperform their talent (even in the Sweet Sixteen year we should have likely done more with Sweentey, Ruben, Bras, Good Wes, Scruggs, Nate and Demetrius).
He showed a knack for grabbing diamonds in the rough but couldn't close on the big boys (Jeff and Roy were not big boys when they signed). He had trouble retaining those players as well. Drew Hall was never very good, but Tony Bethel's transfer hurt us, and Brandon almost left. His father had transfer issues as well, but he could do those other coaching things.
So what more loyalty did the school owe? He got over FIVE years. That's a full recruiting rotation. That's 150 games of evaluating in game decisions, 5 classes of watching development.
And it's clear Craig was not a good coach. What did he expect?
So if D. Pierce is complaining about firing him, he's WAAAY off base. If you feel that way, there are other places he might be able to contribute, but the loyalty was in the opportunity.
If he's complaining about the manner of firing...well, one, I see no facts from him. Interview with DeGioia? Esherick? Seems he's opining on rumor and innuendo.
Basically the article is junk.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2008 15:24:49 GMT -5
ON EDIT: I thought Cam's post was spot on and I also thought RDF's response was much more even-keeled. I've no problem with an education lesson for the article's author, but I also don't understand why we need to have a hatefest around here. I thought Cam's post was spot on as well. I'm willing to bet that RDF would get over it if Craig would just buy him a milkshake. ;D Well, that should just about wrap things up. Move along, people...nothing more to see here.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by theexorcist on Feb 26, 2008 15:28:09 GMT -5
Hoyatables:
It's difficult to respond to the article without bringing up Esh's tenure. As RDF mentioned, he didn't bring the topic up.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Feb 26, 2008 15:37:04 GMT -5
Hoyatables: It's difficult to respond to the article without bringing up Esh's tenure. As RDF mentioned, he didn't bring the topic up. Obviously. But there's a way to say "this author is an idiot who didn't do his research and ignored a lot of facts" that doesn't have to turn into "Craig Esherick is a servant of evil who kicks little babies and eats puppies for breakfast." That's all I'm saying. Oh yeah, and I have probably been too hard on RDF here. RDF, I owe ya a milkshake.
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dailey247
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Post by dailey247 on Feb 26, 2008 15:41:17 GMT -5
I agree with 99% of what RDF said. However "The man had a good eye for talent" doesn't sit quite right with me. Personally, I was ready to forgive and - most importantly - forget the whole Esh regime ever happened after the first weekend of the '06 tournament. Heady times for a member of the Thompson-free class of '03 Then I heard the whole Joakim Noah affair. Where was his eye for talent on that one? That angried up my blood all over again. I was almost ready to move on again, and then this article comes out. I'm starting to think this is a good thing. We need something to get us riled up, Esherick style, every few years. Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Feb 26, 2008 15:52:54 GMT -5
The best part of those Matus articles are Feinstein's comments...about JTIII never leaving Princeton and the outlandish proposition that GU could ever fill up a 20,600 seat stadium.
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