EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 21, 2008 16:43:37 GMT -5
Not commenting on the choir boy comment itself but I think it's bad judgement by JTII to make a comment like this on the radio about his son's team. If he thinks that he should say it, make it known to JTIII in private and not float it on the air. JTIII does not need to be undercut by his father in such an open forum.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 21, 2008 18:44:14 GMT -5
Pash,
Good post. My thoughts:
1. When this team plays poorly, it often is due to a lack of aggression on offense. There's really no argument here. The team will play timid. The passes aren't crisp, no one cuts, and the ball doesn't move towards the basket.
Where I have an issue is the implicit assumption that system doesn't allow for it. I disagree. When we play our best -- say against UNC last year -- players are playing within the system, taking great shots but still being aggressive.
To me, being aggressive can be bad: think Corey Fisher 1-15. Being too controlled can be bad as well -- passing up a good shot is silly. The state our offense is looking for is what every offense is looking for: controlled agression. You attack, but you attack within yourself.
Think back to when the offense is clicking. No one is standing still, no one passes up a good shot. We're active, setting screens and even the slowest of our guards, Jon, is getting to the hoop (he had a relative TON of layups in the tourney last year and almost none this year - WHY? Because he took advantage of defensive mistakes with no hesitation).
2. Which brings me to my second point. This team can attack more, but we shouldn't be playing like Memphis, for example in terms of attacking. Why? Because our personnel isn't Derrick Rose and Chris Douglas Roberts.
All of our players need to drive more, but none of them are talented to the point where almost any drive is a good drive. They need to be selective -- come off screens, take advantage of opportunities when they are there, but we'd be an awful team if we ran isolations for Jessie. And he's our best one on one (perimeter) guy with Chris hurt.
To make another point on personnel, I think your "finesse" comment needs to be on a player by player basis. Everyone needs to be aggressive, but there's a reason why Roy shoots a hook sometimes rather than a dunk, and it has little to do with him being a wuss and more to do with him not being a great leaper where he can dunk on other people's heads.
The best thing any player can do is play within himself -- but to the limits of that.
3. Defensively, I'm not sure about the assumption that because we are #1 in FG defense but 10th or so overall that there is a problem.
From interviews, I know for a fact that the company line on steals is: if you're going to go for it, you better get it. It's simple. I don't know if this is a permanent philosophy or just because, as you said, we're not a quick perimeter team. We have a hard enough time guarding without gambling.
The reason why I don't think it is a huge issue is because we'd never have the #1 FG defense if we forcing more turnovers. We never gamble, so open shots almost never happen. Remember Providence when DaJuan gambled and Efejuku canned an open three? That's incredibly rare against us. It's not an issue, it's a trade-off. I look forward to when we cycle out Chris and Baby Doc and Clark and get some steals without gambling.
My point is, they aren't holes in the system. I don't think there are holes in most systems; there are tradeoffs. We have a very controlled offense and defense which is focused on taking good shots and contesting every shot. We give up some things to do that really, really well.
Really great players or players who elevate their game can do both -- played controlled without giving up much. But otherwise, everything is tradeoffs and execution. We could play looser -- go the Phoenix Suns route, but our turnovers would go up, our shooting % down in the half court, our shooting % defense would likely go down. On the other hand, we'd likely force more turnovers (we forced a ton of turnovers in Esh's last season), get more O rebounds, and get more fast break dunks.
I personally don't think, with this personnel, we'd be better. Where this team can peak is to get comfortable enough to not think; play instinctually and hope they instinctually know what a good shot is, play within the system but do it without thinking. I think the team got there last year, but a lot of it was Jeff.
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hoyafoeva
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 21, 2008 20:28:21 GMT -5
Not commenting on the choir boy comment itself but I think it's bad judgement by JTII to make a comment like this on the radio about his son's team. If he thinks that he should say it, make it known to JTIII in private and not float it on the air. JTIII does not need to be undercut by his father in such an open forum. Oops, too bad...lol
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hoyafoeva
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 21, 2008 20:32:55 GMT -5
Bring out the white uni's...just kidding, actually I like them especially when I got sit up front and watch, I had no problem with the white uni's they did look fresh...I'm just having fun guys and gals, that's all...WE ARE GEORGETOWN!!! Way to take the wind of a decent conversation! Honestly, this pretty much confirms my suspicions regarding your intentions on this board. I am sure that you read, and probably commented on that stupid white uni discussion earlier in the season (fairfield?). Now you bring it back up in an attempt to rile up Hater Dude, Mr. Jealousy, Dumb Dude, et. al. (still waiting on my nickname, btw)! Why can't you just contribute to the discussion at hand??? You made relevant points earlier in this thread and b/c of lack of a life or hobby or whatever, you bring this ridiculous nonsense back up? PA---THETIC! Just a joke child, thats all, just a joke...I just felt happy at the time, is that okay with Mr. Elvis? Why can't you just mind your dang business and tell your bud's to not to get riled up because you said so...call the the dc police, call the feds, call the army, Mr. Pathetic is on the loose it's Ms. Velvetelvis...See ya lata sweetie is that more nicer?
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hoyafoeva
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 21, 2008 20:36:27 GMT -5
"a lot of guts"? It's an internet message board for gods sake Something you know nothing of, get it, nothing...is this an internet message board? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLl
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hoyafoeva
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 750
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 21, 2008 20:38:22 GMT -5
similar to the guts it took to give his insider info about all of the underlying jealousy on this team! something you know nothing of also...MY TEAM...hater...LLAMFAO!!! figure that one out son
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,603
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Post by hoyatables on Feb 21, 2008 20:49:47 GMT -5
Not commenting on the choir boy comment itself but I think it's bad judgement by JTII to make a comment like this on the radio about his son's team. If he thinks that he should say it, make it known to JTIII in private and not float it on the air. JTIII does not need to be undercut by his father in such an open forum. I have absolutely no basis or knowledge for this other than intuition based on rumor and conjecture, but it strikes me that Big John has a pretty active relationship with the players themselves (I'm thinking akin to a grandfather) and perhaps this comment was directed more at the players rather than their coach. I do agree that Big John should probably watch comments that might undercut his son; I just don't think that these comments really targeted him.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Feb 21, 2008 21:14:08 GMT -5
Just a joke child, thats all, just a joke...I just felt happy at the time, is that okay with Mr. Elvis? Why can't you just mind your dang business and tell your bud's to not to get riled up because you said so...call the the dc police, call the feds, call the army, Mr. Pathetic is on the loose it's Ms. Velvetelvis...See ya lata sweetie is that more nicer? Mr. Elvis, Mr. Pathetic (unclear whether this name refers to you or foeva), Ms. VelvetElvis and sweetie... VE - those are a couple nicknames for you to choose from...its no Dumb Dude, but hey, ya take what you can get.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 21, 2008 21:21:40 GMT -5
Interesting discussion between Pash and SF. Good reading. As for the sequence of 4 consecutive posts by the same poster that followed - eh, not so much.
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mrsixer123
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by mrsixer123 on Feb 21, 2008 21:34:37 GMT -5
Big John?s right?the Hoyas aren?t aggressive. You can see it plainly enough watching the games. But if you look in the right places, you can see it in the stats too. Pomeroy?s numbers show Georgetown to be a pretty good squad on both sides of the ball. The Hoyas are ranked a respectable 23rd overall in adjusted offensive efficiency and are even better on the other side of the ball, owning the tenth best adjusted defensive efficiency. These numbers are built on great shot-selection and shooting (seventh best effective field-goal percentage) on the offensive side, and on playing defense that holds opponents to the worst shooting percentage in the nation. We know Georgetown?s good at these things. But the stats also show what they?re bad at, and they really are pretty bad in some facets of the game. On offense, the Hoyas are ranked a truly dismal 263rd out of 341 teams in ?free-throw rate,? which measures the number of made free-throws per field-goal attempt. The Hoyas make a free-throw on average only 22.3% of the time they take a shot. Compare this with a team like UConn, who is second in the nation in this stat, adding a free-throw onto 35% of their field-goal attempts. Doesn?t sound like a big deal? Well, after adjusting for Georgetown?s pace, and even accounting for turnovers, the difference is more than six points per game. Uncontested 15-footers are the best shot in basketball, and the Hoyas don?t take them. On the defensive side, why is Georgetown only tenth overall when their opponents are putting the ball in the hoop at the lowest rate in the nation? First, because they don?t get any turnovers. The Hoyas are astoundingly bad here?they rank 298th, with their opponents giving up the ball on only 18.9% of their possessions. Denying your opponent a shot by taking the ball away is far more effective than letting them shoot, even when you hold them to about 40%. Add to this that Georgetown?s opponents get a second shot on one out of every three misses and you can see why great field-goal-percentage defense isn?t always great plain-old defense. The problem, in part, is that ?the system? doesn?t reward aggressiveness. On offense, the Hoyas find shots, not create them. I?m all for hitting the open man. But when there?s no open man, we all know what happens?they play hot potato in the backcourt and eventually settle for a contested three. At some point, if you?re not getting open looks, you?ve got to put your head down and drive the lane. No, they don?t really have that penetrating guard right now. But too often when Sapp or someone does gets inside, he stops, and then passes back out to play catch some more. They?re obviously coached to look for the kick-out. Again, that?s great when it?s there and your shooters are on. But sometimes, you?ve just got to get in there and try to make it happen. If it doesn?t work, a lot of the time you?re going to end up at the line. Of course Roy could also do a lot better here, too. Too much finesse, too many up-and-unders, too many step-back hooks. I want to see Roy step on people?s heads and warp the rim. I?m not sure aggressiveness is as much the problem on defense. With the exception of Summers, everybody usually gets after it pretty well. Yes, they should be hitting the boards with more intensity, better concentration. But some of the problem is just inherent in playing Summers at the four and Freeman at the three and not being natural ball-hawks. So I?ll just criticize the scheme. The thing I hate most is when Roy moves out to the perimeter. Not only does this allow good passing and cutting teams to get somebody the ball in the deserted paint (see Louisville), it also means there is no one inside to rebound. I really hate this. The paint is your home, Roy! Stay at home! 7'2" monsters are always more effective inside. As for why they don?t get turnovers, I really don?t know. They don?t have guards that can pick people?s pockets, and they don?t really play the passing lanes in their man defense or that goofy that match-up zone. The latter seems to be a conscious coaching decision, but neither of these things really explains it. Don?t really know what's going on here or what you can do about it other than whine. So anyway, that?s my take. Maybe turned into more of a criticism of the holes in the system than a lament about the lack of aggression. Excellent post
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hoyafoeva
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 750
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 21, 2008 23:06:52 GMT -5
Just a joke child, thats all, just a joke...I just felt happy at the time, is that okay with Mr. Elvis? Why can't you just mind your dang business and tell your bud's to not to get riled up because you said so...call the the dc police, call the feds, call the army, Mr. Pathetic is on the loose it's Ms. Velvetelvis...See ya lata sweetie is that more nicer? Mr. Elvis, Mr. Pathetic (unclear whether this name refers to you or foeva), Ms. VelvetElvis and sweetie... VE - those are a couple nicknames for you to choose from...its no Dumb Dude, but hey, ya take what you can get. Williambraskiii says on "why do posters get locked out board": dude who erased my derogatory post about syracuse...it was written in a flash of vitriolic creativity and now i couldn't recreate it even if I tried. Posts get locked for veering off-topic or when they become argumentative for the sake of it, as was this former post. This is not an argument board for Syracuse. Please stay on point and avoid smack talk. --Admin LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFF HOYAFOEVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
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hoyafoeva
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 750
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 21, 2008 23:13:33 GMT -5
Not commenting on the choir boy comment itself but I think it's bad judgement by JTII to make a comment like this on the radio about his son's team. If he thinks that he should say it, make it known to JTIII in private and not float it on the air. JTIII does not need to be undercut by his father in such an open forum. I have absolutely no basis or knowledge for this other than intuition based on rumor and conjecture, but it strikes me that Big John has a pretty active relationship with the players themselves (I'm thinking akin to a grandfather) and perhaps this comment was directed more at the players rather than their coach. I do agree that Big John should probably watch comments that might undercut his son; I just don't think that these comments really targeted him. I don't think coach T is a "choir boy"...he's clearly talking about the players, but he's telling his son, he need's to get in their heads at those critical times.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 22, 2008 0:39:43 GMT -5
1) I disagree that getting easy points due to defense makes a team a better defensive team. In my mind as soon as the ball changes possession it's offense, it has nothing to do with defense.
2) Of course slow pace lowers PPG. But how is playing at a slow pace not part of a teams defensive strategy. I'm not saying playing at a slower pace makes a team better defensively, I'm saying if it's part of a teams stradgey and they execute it well and as a result the oppponent's teams scoring goes down why should that be negated. Defense is stopping the ball from going in the net, I don't think it should matter how they go about doing it.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 22, 2008 0:40:26 GMT -5
RDF, We actually played at a slower than average pace against Providence - the extra field goal attempts were due to our much higher than usual total of offensive rebounds. In any case, taking more shots shouldn't be a goal in and of itself - leaving rebounding and TOs out for a minute, when you take a shot you are also by default giving your opponent one. The goal is taking good shots and playing at a pace that maximizes the team's efficiency on those shots. Offensive rebounds often come when you take good/open shots--the defense is forced to rotate out/is late--because of an open shooter and everyone is rotating/which allows putbacks/rebounds. If you watched the previous drivel up to the Syracuse 2nd half and didn't notice a change in offensive approach from 2nd Half of that game and entire Providence game, I don't know what else I can tell you about the importance of taking good shots when they are presented. Getting offense out of defense in a manner that fits what Hoyas can do was on display against Nova--the sequence which started with great defense and ended with Patrick nailing an open 3pt shot to give Hoyas 8 pt lead. That is type of shot/basketball that is aggressive/good look at basket and came out of your defense creating some offense-the opposition was scrambling back and lost their man. Slowing the pace is fine dependent on game strategy. If you are outmanned and would get killed with quicker pace/hold the ball a bit longer. If you are in late game situation--you want to make sure you get a good shot/opposition doesn't get a shot. Fine. My problem with pace isn't in that scenario. It's when you are playing against teams you are superior to and the deliberate pace keeps them in the game. There is no reason a team who shoots 4-32 in 2nd Half of a game and was trailing by double digits should have ball with chance to win at end of the game. Oh wait there is--they got up 32 shots, got to the FT line, and Hoyas only took 15 shots in 2nd Half. Hoyas shot better from field then Nova in 2nd Half, and needed a stop/ft's with .1 seconds left to win a game that should've been a 20+ pt blowout. That is how important it is to take good OPEN looks when presented, and to create offense from your defense when halfcourt stuff isn't getting it done. 15 shots in a 20 minute half is inexcusable in the shot clock era. Especially on a team that has talent like Georgetown.
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hoyafoeva
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 23, 2008 22:11:10 GMT -5
Just a joke child, thats all, just a joke...I just felt happy at the time, is that okay with Mr. Elvis? Why can't you just mind your dang business and tell your bud's to not to get riled up because you said so...call the the dc police, call the feds, call the army, Mr. Pathetic is on the loose it's Ms. Velvetelvis...See ya lata sweetie is that more nicer? Mr. Elvis, Mr. Pathetic (unclear whether this name refers to you or foeva), Ms. VelvetElvis and sweetie... VE - those are a couple nicknames for you to choose from...its no Dumb Dude, but hey, ya take what you can get. Hey, I'm think I'm a smart dude!!!! FoEvaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
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Post by lichoya68 on Feb 24, 2008 8:47:08 GMT -5
no freaking choir boys yesterday nope go hoyas royandeveryoneelsecontinuetobeevermoreextremelymeaneryup go hoyas beat the johnnes go pitt beat the vile go cuse YES CUSE beat nd yup fill the booth on wed need the johnnies win to guarentee we DONT PLAY ON WED GO HOYAS
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mrsixer123
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Post by mrsixer123 on Feb 24, 2008 19:13:05 GMT -5
the "meeting" that took place in front of cincy's bench was all the proof anyone needed if they questioned whether big john plays a role with this team.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Feb 24, 2008 19:45:30 GMT -5
The tempo does help the fg% and other tempo-free defensive stats. When we impose our style of play, we force opponents to beat us in the half court so we limit the opportunities for layups, dunks, or other wide open looks in transition. And yes, Princeton did have very good defensive teams even if they had the worst of individual matchups because they made teams execute in the half court, minimizing the deficit in speed and athleticism. Getting back on defense is a very important part of playing defense.
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hoyafoeva
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Post by hoyafoeva on Feb 24, 2008 21:44:54 GMT -5
the "meeting" that took place in front of cincy's bench was all the proof anyone needed if they questioned whether big john plays a role with this team. Yup, everyone played with reckless abandon the rest of the way, thanks Tyler we needed that one!!!
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