The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Feb 12, 2008 16:18:33 GMT -5
sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3242789The Big East director of officials has said that Donato was within his rights to make the call at the end of the Nova game. "If [Wallace] was forced out, he either was bumped for a foul or he stepped out of bounds. When a kid is bumped and goes out of bounds, you have to make a call." Pat Forde disagrees however: sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3241590&sportCat=ncb"And a dozen black Minutes roses to … Veteran official Bob Donato (39) for hand-delivering a game to Georgetown on Monday night against Villanova with a preposterous hip-check call with a tenth of a second left, 80 feet from the hoop. Advantage gained? Really?"
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Post by haydenmac on Feb 12, 2008 16:37:01 GMT -5
Absolutely - if you get bumped and knocked out of bounds, I don't care where you are on the court, you have to call the foul if you are in possession of the basketball.
Had he been bumped and been in-bounds, I don't think you could have argued the same.
I'm sure we'll see Bob again this year, so maybe he'll enlighten us as to his train of thought.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Feb 12, 2008 16:40:52 GMT -5
Didn't Horry get called for a hip check on Nash last season in the playoffs? Albeit a more severe and obvious hip check, it was called.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 12, 2008 16:55:06 GMT -5
Absolutely - if you get bumped and knocked out of bounds, I don't care where you are on the court, you have to call the foul if you are in possession of the basketball. Had he been bumped and been in-bounds, I don't think you could have argued the same. I'm sure we'll see Bob again this year, so maybe he'll enlighten us as to his train of thought. And again, the ref is watching the play, not the clock - he doesn't know if there may be 2 or 3 seconds left. If it is out of bounds instead of a foul, the eruption goes the other way.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Feb 12, 2008 20:52:39 GMT -5
Glad to see the BE stands by its refs.
You know, everyone at work popped their head in to say "wow, you guys really got lucky last night/got away with one last night." My response was the same every time, "Maybe, but you should have seen the other FORTY SEVEN fouls that were called." That tended to make most people who just saw the Sportscenter highlight pause and think. In context, the call doesn't seem half as ridiculous as ESPN would like you to believe.
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Buckeye70
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Post by Buckeye70 on Feb 12, 2008 21:52:30 GMT -5
Hoyatables: GLAD to see the Big East stand by its refs?
Oh, really?
Hoyatables, if there is a worse collection of misfit, miscast people in stripes around the U.S. of A., with the possible exception of the crackers running up and down the A.C.C. floors, I haven't seen them.
Good lord, man, what game ARE you watching? The BIG (L)EAST officials seem to never have met an opportunity to blow a whistle they didn't like. Sort of a perverted Will Rogers moment.
Seriously.
I am an unapologetic Villanova alumnus and diehard fan, true, but I am also a fan of good officiating.
Tell you what: Watch a game where Ted Hillary, Tom O'Neill (who did come up with one of the most controversial calls in Villanova history, whistling Allen Ray for traveling on a classic drop step play near the basket while being fouled by an N.C Tar Heel, a play that would have given us the lead with 9 seconds left in the '05 N.C.A.A. Sweet 16)...or Eddie Hightower, Steve Welmer, Glenn Mayborg, Rick Hartzell, Tom Clark, Zelton Steed, etc. are officiating.
They're from the BIG 10 and they let the players play and determine the outcome. Don't know if you saw Sunday's Ohio State-Indiana game from Columbus on CBS, but O'Neill/Hillary and BIG EAST regular Jim Burr, who took time out from being Cpl. Klinger to be a reasonable arbiter of basketball justice, worked the game. Twenty-three fouls (as I pointed out on another thread) in a game fairly similar to the G'town/'Nova game playwise.
V.U./Georgetown? 48 fouls!!! Twenty-four per side. If you seriously see that as exceptional refereeing, you have a pretty perverted sense of hoops justice.
Monday night, Hillary/O'Neill teamed with former BIG EASTer Donnee Gray to work a solid game in the Michigan State/Purdue game.
Maybe you like the sweet sound of the little pea bouncing around inside the silver steel? But I guaran-damn-tee ya, most of us do not.
It is time for a major change in the BIG EAST's style of officiating. The Princeton patrician barrister who controls the comings and goings of the league's refs is a piece of work. And it turns out, so is the commish for defending this nonstop idiocy.
I am not crying foul re: V.U./Georgetown. Those things can occur and it's just another mistake in a way too long journey filled with them. It's time for a change at the top.
Period.
b70
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Feb 12, 2008 22:39:54 GMT -5
The foul happened at 0.9, not 0.1. Wright should have asked them to look at the replay and put time back on the clock.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 12, 2008 22:46:28 GMT -5
My problem with Nova (and Vandy) fans is that they always seem to remember the "slights" by the officials and never seem to recall all the "gifts." Your boy Scottie Reynolds pushes off on every dribble penetration. Your forwards committed numerous moving screens. Your team rebounded over the back every time on the defensive end. Not many of those were called either. We get it. The officiating was bad, but Nova certainly didn't deserve to win the game. Nor was the last foul any worse or any better than any of the other calls and non-calls.
You harp on and on and on about the injustice, the unfairness, the travesty of it all for years and years. I knew you would bring up the UNC thing. I just knew it. Is this just a philly thing? Can you just not deal with the reality of it all and have to find boogie men who are directing the fates against you?
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Feb 12, 2008 22:48:44 GMT -5
Buckeye, I'd rather be in a conference that has the guts to stand by its officials publicly rather than throw them under the bus.
That doesn't mean I think the officials did a great job, or that I think the Big East should blindly support them. In fact, I'm pretty sure the rest of my post indicated that I believe the game was characterized by a lot of overinvolvement by the officials, and the final play was merely the nail in the coffin. I'm as big a fan of "let them play" as anyone else. It's just that I'm also a fan of cleaning your house from within, rather than blindly reacting to a momentary public outcry.
Also a fan of controlling the story. The BE says it stands by Donato, the story is over in a day, and the BE can then actually focus on addressing the problem that leads to these issues, rather than trying to play dumb PR games.
Geez. Is your life so boring that you have nothing to do other than jump on a passing comment?
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Post by ][-][ 0 `/ /-\ 5 on Feb 12, 2008 22:56:37 GMT -5
If the same thing happened at any other time during the game it would be called. Theres no significant changing of the rules depending on what the clock says. If its contact that could be ignored then I'd rather it not be called at the end of the game but a bump out of bounds is a bump out of bounds. He clearly altered the game with the bump. That said the officiating blew.
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Buckeye70
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Post by Buckeye70 on Feb 12, 2008 23:09:40 GMT -5
Cambridge: Your post wasn't as bad as you might have anticipated I'd think it was.
The "We get it, the officiating was bad, but 'Nova certainly didn't deserve to win the game."
PARTLY true. Shoot 4-for-31 as we did against your challenging defense and you make the case. But then again, did Georgetown, which blew a 46-34 lead on its own floor?
So where does that leave us?
I happen to think you have a very strong, very tried-and-true team that is where it is on merit.
But I think as you look at the Villanova-Georgetown series, you know full well, rarely does one team display clear-cut superiority over the other. The games are almost unerringly close tong wars.
Such games call for top-notch officiating.
I am not pleading the case we were jobbed throughout the game and I hope you didn't glean that from what I was saying.
There were enough bad calls to go around.
But the truth is, the officiating simply stunk all nite.
You cannot justify 48 fouls -- period. One newmnewt on ESPN today on that Skip Bayless shill-a-thon starring the redoubtable Dana Jacobson, back from a hard-earned vacation, proclaimed "Of course they should have called it. It was consistent with the way they called the game. Over 40 fouls..."
Huh? But such is the alleged logic employed by such "experts."
There is no justification whatsoever for this type of game management. THAT is my point, Cambridge. And I'm hardly a "philly thing" type, living in the Chicagoland/Northwest Indiana area.
It's a common-sense thing and I think if you got a sampling of media in a) Chicago, b) Pittsburgh, c) Even in your own D.C. area, d) New York and, for sure, Bristol, CT, you'd see not many share your viewpoint.
Hoyatables: "..."so boring ...that I'd jump on a passing comment?" Hey, I wouldn't want to interrupt your burgeoning, bursting social calendar, but I think my freedom of speech is still protected by the First Amendment, is it not?
Those things said, I still enjoy exchanging ideas with you folks, even when we disagree as is clearly the case here. You are good basketball fans and Georgetown-Villanova is one of the better rivalries in college hoops. It was put on "Rivalry Week" as one of the culminating games for a good reason. And I think in that sense, we all can agree it lived up to its reputation nicely.
Good luck the rest of the way.
b70
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 13, 2008 0:29:52 GMT -5
Did you just really pull out the first amendment? On a college basketball message board?
Like it or not, these officials are considered to be pretty good. So my guess? It's a really hard job.
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Buckeye70
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Post by Buckeye70 on Feb 13, 2008 1:47:01 GMT -5
SF Hoya: Yeah, I figured the First Amendment might have just enough shock value to bring the hated enemy to his knees! Kidding.
But seriously, you raise a fairly interesting point about the officials. The only question I have for you is a simple one but one with an annoying answer.
"Who's doing the considering" when it comes to the "good officials."
John Cahill? A good official? Vraiment tu geste.
The judgment of one Arthur Hyland, Princeton socialite and barrister extraordinaire? What a maroon!
Bob Donato? Should have retired five or more years ago at the end of a pretty solid career (then).
The BIG EAST is loaded with such personnel. I love watching our league, but I hate what the officials do to the games.
I watched two emotional, very physical Big 10 games -- Ohio State/Indiana Sunday and Michigan State/Purdue Tuesday, and it's no accident Ted Hillary and Tom O'Neill were attached to both.
Even two BIG EAST officials -- Jim Burr Sunday and Reggie Greenwood Tuesday -- couldn't screw up these games. Both games were brutally physical, much as Villanova- Georgetown was, but in both cases, the officials swallowed their whistles in many key circumstances, opting instead to allow the players to play the key role.
The BIG EAST needs to drop the New York/N.B.A./northeast prep culture of blowing the whistle at every opportunity. Drop the "block-or-charge" mentality with it. Hey, NO CALL!
Honest, while I'm a proud alumnus of a BIG EAST school and tend to root for your team more often than not, I'm more of a Big 10 fan (despite a talent disparity that favors the BIG EAST big time), because the officials for the most part tend to blend into the background and let the players decide the outcome.
Is that too much to ask? Apparently, if you listen to the Messr.s Hyland and Tranghese.
b70
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 13, 2008 1:59:08 GMT -5
Is it just or me or in general don't big east refs let the teams play. That game was not a normally reffed BE game. Buckeye's trying to paint this as being the norm in the league. Big east is known for being a physical league. The ACC is not a physical league in contrast.
Georegtwon has had the following foul totals for both teams in big east play: 28, 30, 32, 33, 40, 30, 36, 39, 45, 29, 32, 48 an average of 35 per game.
Villinova: 41, 39, 38, 42, 47, 49, 45, 42, 51, 39, 48 average: 44 per game.
Maybe you guys just foul a lot?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 13, 2008 2:19:29 GMT -5
indiana shoots 23 fouls per game, purdue 21, wisconsin 22, Mich st. 21, Minnesota 20, illinois 20, ohio st 16, iowa 16, penn st 19, mich 16, NW 13
avg 18
Uconn shoots 29, seton hall 24, cuse 26, nd 23, nova 23, USF 24, marquette 22, rutgers 21, louisville 21, WV 21, pitt 20, prov 20, STJ 20, cinci 19, Depaul 19, gtown 18
avg 22
not that different. 1) this includes OOC game so not necessarily the leagues refs. 2) Certainly style plays into how many times you go to the line.
funny that you pointed to a game between two teams that don't go to the line much as an example of refs letting the players decide the game. Maybe the teams just weren't fouling.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Feb 13, 2008 7:45:42 GMT -5
forde is a edited.
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Post by FromTheBeginning on Feb 13, 2008 8:54:40 GMT -5
This whole argement is so ridiculous - JW's foot was on the line - you can't ignore that - he was either forced out or he stepped out - Donato saw him bumped and made the call - you can decide to let players play on - you cannot ignore a player stepping on the line. That is not a judgement call.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Feb 13, 2008 9:04:14 GMT -5
Did you just really pull out the first amendment? On a college basketball message board? (SNIP) This is a Georgetown message board. I'm surprised that someone hasn't used Paul Kennedy to validate criticisms of GU. (imperial overstretch = taking too many threes instead of getting the ball to Roy)
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Feb 13, 2008 9:41:13 GMT -5
The foul happened at 0.9, not 0.1. Wright should have asked them to look at the replay and put time back on the clock. Good point. Not sure if that's been mentioned before. Jay Wright is dumb. ;D On a related note, I noticed that this was a key topic of discussion on all of the sports talk shows yesterday (along with the Rutgers-Tennessee mess, marking the first time this season anyone has cared at all about women's basketball). And even though most of the pundits said that the foul shouldn't have been called (where is your homerism when we need it, Kornheiser and Willybuns?), it still made me smile. Why? If this was Villanova-Providence, or any number of other games, this probably would have never come up. It would have been mentioned, someone would have said it was a bad call, and everyone would have moved on. But that didn't happen because this was Georgetown, and that is a name to be reckoned with again. (OK, I realize that we all knew this already, but it's nice to have it reinforced.)
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Feb 13, 2008 14:05:35 GMT -5
buckeye i have only one question for you:
what kind of computer are you using that only allows you to type in a column like that?
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